PH & Organics

gogogogogogo

gogogogogogo

Well-Known Member
Hello Organics community!

I come seeking advice on the importance of PH levels in an organic grow.

There are three things you need to know of my grow that are relevant to this discussion...

Firstly, I am using a super soil. It has lime in it, but is sitting at a PH of 6.0 according to my soil PH meter.

Secondly, I am using Earth Juice tea as a supplement. It notoriously drops PH down into the 4's and 5's from what I have heard and based on my experience.

Third, my tap water has a PH of 7.8.

As I understand it, in an organic grow the PH swing can be much greater than a chemical grow. I believe this is due to the biology of the soil, which breaks down organic materials and provides nutrients to the roots. I'm curious as to your experiences with soil PH and water PH. Is a stable PH important to an organic grow? Given my parameters, should I be using PH Up or Down? What is a sought after PH range for organic grows?

My soil PH tester is quite nice, as it would appear. However, my digital PH meter I use to measure liquids is quite erratic. I also have a PPM meter too, although I'm not sure if organic growers use one.

I apologize for so many questions. You do not have to address each one individually, I'd even appreciate just a nice push in the right direction.

Thank you for your time.
 
Rasta Roy

Rasta Roy

Well-Known Member
When I first switched to growing organic I did some panicing over pH! But someone on one of these forums gave me some great advice. Quit worrying about it homie! When growing organic your pH will swing naturally. Oyster Shell Flour and crab meal make great pH buffers! Don't bother checking pH, don't add pH down or up. Just let it go. Let your tap water sit for 24 hours though before you use it the chlorine will kill your soil microbes.
 
Slipup420

Slipup420

Member
Not true when making soil especially super soil ph is going to drop dramatically it takes few weeks . what one should do , is add worms and make a tea to start the micro life
Once this is done , Guess what its still not safe to place plants in ir you need to allow few weeks for everything to start its carbon cycle and gas exchange during this time your ph will start to stabilize in the 6.5 - 6.8 range
The problem is people will adjust ph with ash to raise it causing more issues down the road
If your plans are to grow true organic with true organic soil it takes time
for instance i start making my soil now for next season 1 year from now allowing true organics on mother natures clock , but back to your post allow time for micro life to establish there the ph Adjusers and ph will adjust ..
So its a waiting game, till you see ph swing upwards dont mess with it
Once you see it then your golden and ready to transplant :)
goal is keep soil moist during this time with some turning of the soil

PS it takes 2 - 3 weeks for everything to come in order from start of soil mix here is one girl going into 100 percent organic no lime no ph adjustments one tea to activate soil guess what ??? i was about to add worms when i dug up hole there were hundreds already there ..250 gallons mix in actual ground ATTACH=full]3701570[/ATTACH] IMG3685.jpg IMG3620.jpg IMG3622.jpg IMG3548.jpg
 

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gogogogogogo

gogogogogogo

Well-Known Member
SPLFreak808 said:
Are you cooking (not literally!) the soil before using it?
Click to expand...
Yes absolutely, it's been cooking for about 30 days now I don't plan on using it for another couple weeks. (No it hasn't been sitting in the oven for 30 days! :lol::lol:)

Slipup420 said:
Not true when making soil especially super soil ph is going to drop dramatically it takes few weeks . what one should do , is add worms and make a tea to start the micro life
Once this is done , Guess what its still not safe to place plants in ir you need to allow few weeks for everything to start its carbon cycle and gas exchange during this time your ph will start to stabilize in the 6.5 - 6.8 range
The problem is people will adjust ph with ash to raise it causing more issues down the road
If your plans are to grow true organic with true organic soil it takes time
for instance i start making my soil now for next season 1 year from now allowing true organics on mother natures clock , but back to your post allow time for micro life to establish there the ph Adjusers and ph will adjust ..
So its a waiting game, till you see ph swing upwards dont mess with it
Once you see it then your golden and ready to transplant :)
goal is keep soil moist during this time with some turning of the soil

PS it takes 2 - 3 weeks for everything to come in order from start of soil mix here is one girl going into 100 percent organic no lime no ph adjustments one tea to activate soil guess what ??? i was about to add worms when i dug up hole there were hundreds already there ..250 gallons mix in actual ground ATTACH=full]3701570[/ATTACH] View attachment 3701573 View attachment 3701574 View attachment 3701576 View attachment 3701577
Click to expand...
That's a healthy looking plant! Yes, I intend to stay truly organic. I produced a monster girl as a newbie (second grow, 300+ grams under a 400w) using all organic Earth Juice and a slightly amended soil. You guys are probably right, I might be sweating this too much. I never PH'd then. However, if you briefly check out my grow journal it just looks to me like a few aren't getting what they need!

We shall see how they react to this tea I am brewing. It's quite strong, but that's the wonderful thing about organics, burning our girls is pretty darn difficult with a tea. I certainly don't intend on starting my future clones in the super soil immediately so fear not. My current grow isn't a full super soil, just amended with humic acid, azomite, epsom, powdered dolomite lime, some myco, roots organic, pro mix, and perlite! Next grow I will be starting my clones from this one in solo cups, to 3 gallon smart pots with this same mix, into 5 gallon pots with the super soil.
 
Rasta Roy

Rasta Roy

Well-Known Member
gogogogogogo said:
Yes absolutely, it's been cooking for about 30 days now I don't plan on using it for another couple weeks. (No it hasn't been sitting in the oven for 30 days! :lol::lol:)



That's a healthy looking plant! Yes, I intend to stay truly organic. I produced a monster girl as a newbie (second grow, 300+ grams under a 400w) using all organic Earth Juice and a slightly amended soil. You guys are probably right, I might be sweating this too much. I never PH'd then. However, if you briefly check out my grow journal it just looks to me like a few aren't getting what they need!

We shall see how they react to this tea I am brewing. It's quite strong, but that's the wonderful thing about organics, burning our girls is pretty darn difficult with a tea. I certainly don't intend on starting my future clones in the super soil immediately so fear not. My current grow isn't a full super soil, just amended with humic acid, azomite, epsom, powdered dolomite lime, some myco, roots organic, pro mix, and perlite! Next grow I will be starting my clones from this one in solo cups, to 3 gallon smart pots with this same mix, into 5 gallon pots with the super soil.
Click to expand...
I would leave out the lime if you're using promix! You really only need it if you're using just plain peat moss. I would leave out the epsom too. I bet a lot of what you thought were pH problems was just lock out from your ratios being off from amendments you don't need. Kelp Meal is essential though I would get some of that in there. Neem cake (neem seed meal) is great and keeps your leaves nice and green. Crab Shell meal is awesome too. The crab shell meal will give you the calcium and magnesium, and pH buffering you want from the dolomite lime along with giving you nitrogen, phosphorus, chitin, and other benefits.
 
SPLFreak808

SPLFreak808

Well-Known Member
gogogogogogo said:
Yes absolutely, it's been cooking for about 30 days now I don't plan on using it for another couple weeks. (No it hasn't been sitting in the oven for 30 days! :lol::lol:)
Click to expand...
lmao, well if it helps you any, i dont pH my water with absolutely no pH problems. I use oyster shell flour in yearly recycled soil + compost and it seems to always keep pH in check even if i accidentally get slightly anerobic.
 
Rasta Roy

Rasta Roy

Well-Known Member
SPLFreak808 said:
lmao, well if it helps you any, i dont pH my water with absolutely no pH problems. I use oyster shell flour in yearly recycled soil + compost and it seems to always keep pH in check even if i accidentally get slightly anerobic.
Click to expand...
Ditto. I've never gone anaerobic fortunately lol.
 
gogogogogogo

gogogogogogo

Well-Known Member
Rasta Roy said:
I would leave out the lime if you're using promix! You really only need it if you're using just plain peat moss. I would leave out the epsom too. I bet a lot of what you thought were pH problems was just lock out from your ratios being off from amendments you don't need. Kelp Meal is essential though I would get some of that in there. Neem cake (neem seed meal) is great and keeps your leaves nice and green. Crab Shell meal is awesome too. The crab shell meal will give you the calcium and magnesium, and pH buffering you want from the dolomite lime along with giving you nitrogen, phosphorus, chitin, and other benefits.
Click to expand...
I just wish I knew the proper ratios! I'm starting out with subs supersoil recipe which I have since read may be over complicated and far from perfect... I do like a hotter medium, but I definitely feel I could have mixed a more rounded final product.

The grow shop guy was telling me about the neem cake. He claimed it helped with pests such as gnats, do you agree with that statement? Do you use DE or anything else to help combat pests in such an organically rich soil?
 
Rasta Roy

Rasta Roy

Well-Known Member
gogogogogogo said:
I just wish I knew the proper ratios! I'm starting out with subs supersoil recipe which I have since read may be over complicated and far from perfect... I do like a hotter medium, but I definitely feel I could have mixed a more rounded final product.

The grow shop guy was telling me about the neem cake. He claimed it helped with pests such as gnats, do you agree with that statement? Do you use DE or anything else to help combat pests in such an organically rich soil?
Click to expand...
Neem definitely helps with pests! I top dress with it. You can also let it soak into some water for a couple days and do a root drench if you got a really bad gnat issue. It's also a nitrification inhibitor, which means it keeps nitrogen in your soil for longer. I throw DE into my soil tubs that I store until I need it. I don't bother with my potted plants, I'll just do a root drench if I need (with the neem above mentioned).

As far as ratios for pretty much everything I would do 1/4 cup per cubic feet (about 7 gallons) of pretty much whatevs amendments you're mixing.

And number one, do not layer your Soil! Subcool is a terrible person for spreading that awful idea. Evenly mix always!

My favorite ingredients are:

Kelp meal
Neem cake
Crab Shell Meal
Alfalfa Meal
Fish bone meal
Granular humic acid
 
gogogogogogo

gogogogogogo

Well-Known Member
Rasta Roy said:
Neem definitely helps with pests! I top dress with it. You can also let it soak into some water for a couple days and do a root drench if you got a really bad gnat issue. It's also a nitrification inhibitor, which means it keeps nitrogen in your soil for longer. I throw DE into my soil tubs that I store until I need it. I don't bother with my potted plants, I'll just do a root drench if I need (with the neem above mentioned).

As far as ratios for pretty much everything I would do 1/4 cup per cubic feet (about 7 gallons) of pretty much whatevs amendments you're mixing.

And number one, do not layer your Soil! Subcool is a terrible person for spreading that awful idea. Evenly mix always!

My favorite ingredients are:

Kelp meal
Neem cake
Crab Shell Meal
Alfalfa Meal
Fish bone meal
Granular humic acid
Click to expand...
Yeah, I have always been kind of wary about the idea of layering your soil. It doesn't make sense to me. From the standpoint of creating a buffer zone from "cold" to "hot" mediums, it makes sense I suppose, but what makes more sense is to just provide one even medium that won't burn your plants. I'll do some experiments with some extra cuttings to see what levels of dilution I can use to create a safe soil.
 
gogogogogogo

gogogogogogo

Well-Known Member
Do you ever apply teas to your compost to keep it damp and kickstart the microbial process? I used some Earth Juice Rooter's Mycorrhizae in my mix to kickstart the fungal breakdown, but I'm not sure if there's any benefit to adding teas to compost (that doesn't yet have plants in it!) to add bacteria as well.
 
Rasta Roy

Rasta Roy

Well-Known Member
gogogogogogo said:
Yeah, I have always been kind of wary about the idea of layering your soil. It doesn't make sense to me. From the standpoint of creating a buffer zone from "cold" to "hot" mediums, it makes sense I suppose, but what makes more sense is to just provide one even medium that won't burn your plants. I'll do some experiments with some extra cuttings to see what levels of dilution I can use to create a safe soil.
Click to expand...
It definitely makes no sense once you know how cannabis roots work. They don't slowly claw they're way down the soil. They send a few roots straight to the bottom and then they spread out horizontally from there. That's why you want a wide pot over a tall pot when growing weed.

I grow my seedlings and small clones in an even parts peat moss, perlite, compost mix. With no other amendments. Then when I repot them into their forever homes they get soil with the amendments listed above (at a rate of 1/4 cup per cubic feet of soil) and I do a fresh worm casting top dressing every two or three weeks. I'll use a fish hydrolysate for my heavier nitrogen eating plants and in flower I top dress every two or three weeks with seabird guano. Sometimes I'll do a Guano tea instead of the top dressing, depends on if I think the plants are asking for it. Varies strain to strain. I've never had burned plants tho.
 
whitebb2727

whitebb2727

Well-Known Member
Layering soil is silly.

If you germ a seed in its final pot, I do straight to 5-10 gallons, by the time it breaks ground it will have a six inch tap root and after a week it will be touching the bottom of your pot.

Tap root. A tap root drives deep and fast to hit water.

Its why a seed will do better than a clone outdoors in a hot dry place. The clone has no tap root to hit the water table.
 
cannakis

cannakis

Well-Known Member
Slipup420 said:
Not true when making soil especially super soil ph is going to drop dramatically it takes few weeks . what one should do , is add worms and make a tea to start the micro life
Once this is done , Guess what its still not safe to place plants in ir you need to allow few weeks for everything to start its carbon cycle and gas exchange during this time your ph will start to stabilize in the 6.5 - 6.8 range
The problem is people will adjust ph with ash to raise it causing more issues down the road
If your plans are to grow true organic with true organic soil it takes time
for instance i start making my soil now for next season 1 year from now allowing true organics on mother natures clock , but back to your post allow time for micro life to establish there the ph Adjusers and ph will adjust ..
So its a waiting game, till you see ph swing upwards dont mess with it
Once you see it then your golden and ready to transplant :)
goal is keep soil moist during this time with some turning of the soil

PS it takes 2 - 3 weeks for everything to come in order from start of soil mix here is one girl going into 100 percent organic no lime no ph adjustments one tea to activate soil guess what ??? i was about to add worms when i dug up hole there were hundreds already there ..250 gallons mix in actual ground ATTACH=full]3701570[/ATTACH] View attachment 3701573 View attachment 3701574 View attachment 3701576 View attachment 3701577
Click to expand...
Damn see finally shows Results of their shit. Damn well my soil needs to sit for 8 more months now haha. Interesting you say Ashes cause more problems why do you say? Ashes are and especially were Integral to farming and especially newly deforested land. But I ask because I added ashes to my mix... Also what is your recipe? Man you got those numbers right on point 7 7 7s!!!
 
cannakis

cannakis

Well-Known Member
gogogogogogo said:
I just wish I knew the proper ratios! I'm starting out with subs supersoil recipe which I have since read may be over complicated and far from perfect... I do like a hotter medium, but I definitely feel I could have mixed a more rounded final product.

The grow shop guy was telling me about the neem cake. He claimed it helped with pests such as gnats, do you agree with that statement? Do you use DE or anything else to help combat pests in such an organically rich soil?
Click to expand...
Check out the ROLS thread for ratios. And themodern.farm
 
greasemonkeymann

greasemonkeymann

Well-Known Member
whitebb2727 said:
Layering soil is silly.

If you germ a seed in its final pot, I do straight to 5-10 gallons, by the time it breaks ground it will have a six inch tap root and after a week it will be touching the bottom of your pot.

Tap root. A tap root drives deep and fast to hit water.

Its why a seed will do better than a clone outdoors in a hot dry place. The clone has no tap root to hit the water table.
Click to expand...
I love ya man, and I agree with the first part, but strongly disagree with the second.
cannabis isn't a "taproot" rooting system, it's a fibrous one.
a clone will have the same roots as a seeded one, they don't work like that at all.
pull a plant from "seed" and one from clone, and the roots are identical, there is no "taproot"
think about it.
which does your rootball look like?
th (12).jpg
comparatively
338xNxroot-1fibrous.jpg.pagespeed.ic.8u70H0KURw.jpg
fibrous
338xNxroot-taproot.jpg.pagespeed.ic.gf402buSh5.jpg
and this is a taproot.
carrots, dandelions, etc.
 
whitebb2727

whitebb2727

Well-Known Member
greasemonkeymann said:
I love ya man, and I agree with the first part, but strongly disagree with the second.
cannabis isn't a "taproot" rooting system, it's a fibrous one.
a clone will have the same roots as a seeded one, they don't work like that at all.
pull a plant from "seed" and one from clone, and the roots are identical, there is no "taproot"
think about it.
which does your rootball look like?
View attachment 3701982
comparatively
View attachment 3701977
fibrous
View attachment 3701978
and this is a taproot.
carrots, dandelions, etc.
Click to expand...
They are not the same.
It won't be like a carrot or other plant with one tap that the other roots branch from. It does have a main root that I call a tap root.

A Google search for "cannabis tap or fibrous root" shows many sites that claim the same as I have.
http://blog.sfgate.com/smellthetruth/2013/03/27/seeds-vs-clones/

http://www.spliffseeds.nl/difference-between-marijuana-seeds-and-clones.html

http://www.cannabis.info/us/abc/30006821-the-cannabis-root-system

Screenshot_2016-06-07-13-50-06.png
Clones have a fibrous root system. So does a plant from seed but it also has a tao root. It is an extension of the stalk. It is stronger and goes deeper than the other roots.

It is also what tells ruderalis to flower.
 
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