Ph Question - Tap water is 8.9 -Clackimus Coots Organic Soil

I agree that soil pH needs to be checked but unless you are growing in straight peat with a pH of 4.0-4.5, constant watering of 9.1 IS going to affect your plant and microbial life. Most likely the OP soil is within range 6.2-6.8 due to the fact that they said their plant is doing well. I have read some of your posts on the matter and clearly I differ from your thought process on it.
Watering to run off one time to get a reading is not going to leach all your nutrients...let alone the leachable ones. I would prefer a slurry test with RO water/soil pen coupled with a run off test to get a better measure.

Sounds to me like you are the one going by a feeling and not reason.

NaturalFarmer said:

I agree that soil pH needs to be checked but unless you are growing in straight peat with a pH of 4.0-4.5, constant watering of 9.1 IS going to affect your plant and microbial life. Most likely the OP soil is within range 6.2-6.8 due to the fact that they said their plant is doing well. I have read some of your posts on the matter and clearly I differ from your thought process on it.
Watering to run off one time to get a reading is not going to leach all your nutrients...let alone the leachable ones. I would prefer a slurry test with RO water/soil pen coupled with a run off test to get a better measure.

Sounds to me like you are the one going by a feeling and not reason.

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i never said it was going to leach all the nutrients lol. checking the runoff ph is most often a waste of time because it's not an accurate representation of what the soil is actually doing. a soil pen (like the one bluelabs makes) is a great way to get a ph of the soil. if we're adding base water (like his 9.0ph which likely has OH- in it), then we are creating neutral water with the acidic protons (H+) that are naturally in peat. but to get a true representation of what's happening in the soil, i agree a soil pen or a slurry test would be far better than checking the runoff.

NaturalFarmer said:

Sounds to me like you are the one going by a feeling and not reason.

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well that is your opinion. i'm using the science of what's happening in the soil that affects the ph of the soil in the first place. i'm suggesting to him to test his soil before he makes any changes rather than just "acidifying" the water.... that seems pretty reasonable to me....

Unless you have seen a soil test and understand the components of their soil makeup than you are going by feeling imo.

NaturalFarmer said:

Unless you have seen a soil test and understand the components of their soil makeup than you are going by feeling imo.

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well are we not suggesting that he check the soil ph before making any changes? if he's got coots mix, then the recipe is well known across the board by many people on here. peat based mix. don't really need to know much more than that! standard mix, peat, drainage, humus, rock dusts, and the usual kelp, crab, neem, OSF/Dolo.

so peat = acidic H+ cations, alkaline water = OH- anions.... put them together and what do you get?

I guess I was under the impression you were against checking pH in organic soils? no?

NaturalFarmer said:

I guess I was under the impression you were against checking pH in organic soils? no?

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Nope im all for it. I even check my own from time to time for shits and giggles. Have the blue lab ph probe. Nice unit

I have the same one. Nice unit, never understood the complaints about it. I'm sorry brother to ASSuME

Once you know your baseline it goes in the drawer at least mine has

Im simply trying to point out that just because his water is alkaline does not necessarily mean that his soil will be affected based on the natural chemistry of the water and pH

Ph of the water is far more important in a bottle based grow. I will definitely say that

and remember the plant will regulate pH if it wants to through CEC processes. it is fully capable of dumping H+ atoms into the rhizosphere and adding acidity if it wants it.

This process is inefficient and has a cost to the end product and this IMO is one of the biggest misconception in organics. Not wrong by any means however, just a misconception that is lost in translation.

Lets say you have a 5 gallon pot with a small plant. The roots will not be able to change very much of that soil with exudates and the rootzone could/would be forced to live within a smaller area than it would had the soil pH been correct and thus stunt its potential. Eventually the roots will expand enough and will work to correct the pH using exudates but at a cost.


I have never heard of CEC as a process though so I am a little unclear on that one. CEC is a measurement to determine the holding capacity of cations in soil, I think I get your drift though.


https://www.rollitup.org/t/c-e-c-cation-exchange-capacity.936945/

• I am wondering if you guys would recommend caution in adding certain salt nutes to high ph water, or extremely low ph water for that matter.
  
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• https://www.google.ca/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiNuurO9YHTAhVR7WMKHW40CwUQjRwIBw&url=http://www.turfcaresupply.com/resources-and-services/soil-ph-nutrient-chart&psig=AFQjCNGE6X8AS1U_-Y6oVe7Xt1YsmDtuxA&ust=1491090087468259

maybe straight water is fine but if you add N or Cal to the water or a number of others you will have issues. Maybe if you have that high a ph you really need to be organic or at least have most of the minerals be slow release in the soil??? I think I would, but I have never had to deal with that type of bad water before.


I am also wondering what the water is like after carbon filtering or an R/O treatment.

NaturalFarmer said:

This process is inefficient and has a cost to the end product and this IMO is one of the biggest misconception in organics. Not wrong by any means however, just a misconception that is lost in translation.

Lets say you have a 5 gallon pot with a small plant. The roots will not be able to change very much of that soil with exudates and the rootzone could/would be forced to live within a smaller area than it would had the soil pH been correct and thus stunt its potential. Eventually the roots will expand enough and will work to correct the pH using exudates but at a cost.


I have never heard of CEC as a process though so I am a little unclear on that one. CEC is a measurement to determine the holding capacity of cations in soil, I think I get your drift though.


https://www.rollitup.org/t/c-e-c-cation-exchange-capacity.936945/

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what process is inefficient and has a cost? i'm not sure what you're referring to...

CEC can be measured, but CEC itself is not a measurement; it is a property of the materials that make up the soil often based on the amount of surface area that is capable of performing Cation Exchange.

the ph of the soil is determined by the amount of hydrogen present and the scale is represented by powers of 10, and divided by neutral at 7. so a soil of ph 7 is 100x less acidic than a soil of ph 5.

now being acidic is referring to having an excess of H+ protons in the soil. H+ protons define the acid or base (depending on which chemists definition you are using but it's basically a representation the transfer of electrons or a proton). Being basic still means there are H atoms present, however bases neutralize acidic protons by bonding with them. this is the classic example of a base hydroxide anion OH- bumping into an acidic H+ cation and forming neutral water. Peat is loaded with acidic protons so when you water with an alkaline water that has OH- in it they're going to neutralize each other and form water molecules. the plant continuously puts acidic protons into the soil during cation exchange! so with a combination of acidic peat, and the plant pumping acidic protons into the soil... i don't see how putting a 9 pH natural well water is going to cause any harm (as long as it is good quality water of course).

Looking at the water report again it seems very good for city other than two things that I noticed. High aluminum and the pH of course. I am surprised at how in depth the test is. Must be a Canadian thing.

The process I was referring to is exudates driving down pH using organic acids. If your plant are forced to work at changing the soils pH then this is a limiting factor especially in an annual crop.

Cation Exchange is not a measurement but CEC is. I agree with what you say though.

NaturalFarmer said:

The process I was referring to is exudates driving down pH using organic acids. If your plant are forced to work at changing the soils pH then this is a limiting factor especially in an annual crop.

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i could see this being a possibility, but the plants do it naturally... so is it really working hard at it? i'm not qualified enough to answer that question!

ShLUbY said:

i could see this being a possibility, but the plants do it naturally... so is it really working hard at it? i'm not qualified enough to answer that question!

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It's not the energy is lost from this process but rather the loss from the soil that is being underutilized by the plant and microbes due to pH being out of range.

NaturalFarmer said:

It's not the energy is lost from this process but rather the loss from the soil that is being underutilized by the plant and microbes due to pH being out of range.

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but is the soil ph out of range? that's the whole question.... and can only be answered by monitoring it with a probe! remember we are creating neutral water when we add OH- water and acidic H+ environment together... so i just don't see the imbalance...