Plant problems under LED

It's leaf temperature, hps has a lot of IR to provide heat, led not so much. Add some IR to the led, but your going to need to add some more blue/uv to balance the stretch, ask me I've tried it. LEDS are like going to the beach to suntan on a sunny day but it's 10C out. LED provides the light energy but dont provide enough thermal energy. This is why the leds need higher temps. Sun intensity is usually correlated with higher temps outdoors.
 
LetsGrowSomeGanja said:
I have learned over time that LED in veg particularly is horse shit.
........ LED: ALWAYS hungry for more ca/mg. To the point where you can never keep up.
Click to expand...
LOL please explain, LED is great for veging bushy plants and you feed calcium supplemented @ recommended dosage on the label and if you cant 'keep up' with that then i'm sorry but growing is defo not for you...HPS salesman? :)
 
Bignutes said:
It's leaf temperature, hps has a lot of IR to provide heat, led not so much. Add some IR to the led, but your going to need to add some more blue/uv to balance the stretch, ask me I've tried it. LEDS are like going to the beach to suntan on a sunny day but it's 10C out. LED provides the light energy but dont provide enough thermal energy. This is why the leds need higher temps. Sun intensity is usually correlated with higher temps outdoors.
Click to expand...
You are absolutely right. Thank you. If i say it Lukio Trolls me down.
As low as 730nm excites the molecules within the leaf causing them to move around. The more they move around & bounce off each other, the more there Is friction created. Which in turn raises the internal leaf temp. We could afford to go up to 750 imo but may have positive effects up to 850 as it does for humans.
I also believe the lack of ir in white leds is preventing the processing of Vit-D & is causing these problems. Why i said adding Vit-D to your feed underr white leds might be helpful as that is what the Dr. Does for us when we do not get enough sunlight. Also the main purpose for The existence of Broadband single diode phosphor leds. As well as IR therapy lights that are very popular.
Yes, need the blues but for more then just stretch.

Here's one the close minded like to laugh at.
platinumtherapylights.com

Red Light Therapy Blog | PlatinumLED Therapy Lights

Get all the latest news and tips on light therapy devices in the PlatinumLED Blog. Stay tuned and get informed with our weekly updates.
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If you read n search through this site or another from the same Plat company (yes same as grow light company) you will see all the different Synergistic Effects of using different combos of red up to 850nm on humans.
To me, our plants are NOT much different.
 
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hybridway2 said:
You are absolutely right. Thank you. If i say it Lukio Trolls me down.
As low as 730nm excites the molecules within the leaf causing them to move around. The more they move around & bounce off each other, the more there I'd friction created. Which in turn raises the internal leaf temp. We could afford to go up to 750 imo but may have positive effects up to 850 as it does for humans.
I also believe the lack of ir in white leds is preventing the processing of Vit-D & is causing these problems. Why i said adding Vit-D to your feed underr white leds might be helpful as that is what the Dr. Does for us when we do not get enough sunlight. Also the main purpose for The existence of Broadband single diode phosphor leds. As well as IR therapy lights that are very popular.
Yes, need the blues but for more then just stretch.
Click to expand...

I laughed my ass off at your first comment.

What your describing is the definition of heat and it's thermodynamic properties which follow the first and second law of thermodynamics. Heat is transferred in a few ways but as it pertains to plants is mainly through radiation which is as you describe. Its also in conduction and radiation into the root system but thats different than what we are talking about here.

Its a photon exciting the plants pigments but more specifically at the subatomic level which involves the excitation of electrons into the next orbital state and this herein describes the transfer of radiant heat and it's effect on the metabolic rate of photosynthesis of the plant. There are different pigments and these capture different wavelengths.

Chlorophyll-a absorbs most at 430 nm and 660 nm, it also contains a magnesium molecule in it's molecular chain. Most LEDs are lacking at 430 nm and to a lesser extent 660 nm. Funny thing is chlorophyll-a is the most abundant pigment in plants yet Leds don't cater to ch-a, but rather to ch-b.

Choloropyll-b on the other hand absorbs most at 453 nm and 642 nm. LEDS are more geared to drive the ch. b molecule which doesn't have a magnesium molecule.

If i were a betting man my observation is if you dont provide the plant with enough light energy at 430 or 660 it has to overcompensate and expend more of its energy to manufacture more of its dominant pigment chlorophyll-a than would otherwise be necessary (in the sun). It needs to increase the amount of surface area of the chlorophyll-a to capture the relatively small amount of 430 and 660 wavelength light leds produce thereby generating a heavy dependance on magnesium because magnesium is in its molecular structure. To note chlorophyll-a is the only pigment molecule that contains a magnesium molecule. Also add in that ch-a also absorbs a good deal of light between 320 nm and 430 nm which current leds dont provide. Plants are a chameleon, they generate different pigments at different wavelengths to accomodate the lighting conditions we provide but this takes the plant more out of its "happy" place and is the reason why we see so many issues with mag deficiencies in indoor growing.
 
If it were me I'd be supplementing with 385 to 430 nm, a little more at 480 to address the carotenoids pigments where leds so commonly dip and an incandescent heat bulb to take care of all that's missed in the ir region on a 4000 k led because the incandescent will bump up the tail end of red on it's own. I'd also forget the uv below 385 because they don't last long and are expensive.
 
I veg under Samsung strips, no extra calcium or mag at room temperature (about 23c at the mo) with no problems. I flower under my old cxb's, no extra calcium or magnesium with no issues. I do however flower at higher temps (27-30c). I think a lot of people blaming LED's for their problems are experienceing a phenomenon most people refer to as "user error".
Flowering at higher temps with LED's is not news. People have been recommending using higher temps on the forums for years now.
If you change your equipment, be that your lights, medium, nutrient delivery system etc etc you adjust the way you grow to make the most of your new equipment. Either by researching what others have done in your situation or by reading your plants.
If you haven't got the growing chops or can't be arsed to do the research & follow through on it maybe you should go back to hps & stop ball aching.
 
kushedy said:
I veg under Samsung strips, no extra calcium or mag at room temperature (about 23c at the mo) with no problems. I flower under my old cxb's, no extra calcium or magnesium with no issues. I do however flower at higher temps (27-30c). I think a lot of people blaming LED's for their problems are experienceing a phenomenon most people refer to as "user error".
Flowering at higher temps with LED's is not news. People have been recommending using higher temps on the forums for years now.
If you change your equipment, be that your lights, medium, nutrient delivery system etc etc you adjust the way you grow to make the most of your new equipment. Either by researching what others have done in your situation or by reading your plants.
If you haven't got the growing chops or can't be arsed to do the research & follow through on it maybe you should go back to hps & stop ball aching.
Click to expand...
I don't believe anyone is "ball aching"
Most here are chill enough and just trying to share their observations and learn from what we see others posting that are actually growing and trying different things.
On this concept of raising the temps to compensate for led's lack of infrared radiation - how would you apply this to non-cannabis crops, which a lot of them have sensitivity to temperature (bolting etc.) ?
:peace:
 
Bignutes said:
If it were me I'd be supplementing with 385 to 430 nm, a little more at 480 to address the carotenoids pigments where leds so commonly dip and an incandescent heat bulb to take care of all that's missed in the ir region on a 4000 k led because the incandescent will bump up the tail end of red on it's own. I'd also forget the uv below 385 because they don't last long and are expensive.
Click to expand...

I am an led fan, I have 5 led lights and run higher temps. I think there's more to the story of using leds and it has to do with optimization. I believe if there was an led light with a better spectrum you'd see better yields, higher quality and plants that grow more within their natural response which would mean they would be more resilient.
 
Bignutes said:
I am an led fan, I have 5 led lights and run higher temps. I think there's more to the story of using leds and it has to do with optimization. I believe if there was an led light with a better spectrum you'd see better yields, higher quality and plants that grow more within their natural response which would mean they would be more resilient.
Click to expand...
Great job explaining the things i cant! Lol!
This is why is see healthier, happier plants under some leds then others. The more effort put into the spectrum the less adjustments need to be made is what i have seen in my garden.
I dont see it as "growers error" just because there are sort've ways around it. The losses in figuring that out should not have to be.
I see it as LedDefficiency. Both in the light & then the plant.
 
Resistance to see the bigger picture breeds mediocrity. I think if a person were to add a few starboards at 385 to 430 it and 660 nm it would be noticeable, but a real side by side would tell the tale of the tape.
 
Bignutes said:
Resistance to see the bigger picture breeds mediocrity. I think if a person were to add a few starboards at 385 to 430 it and 660 nm it would be noticeable, but a real side by side would tell the tale of the tape.
Click to expand...
Agreed! I'm about to be using 385nm, x2 whites, 470, 630,660 + 730nm on Dual channels. I know you'd need the ratios or graph to to see exactly. Just missing the 420 for what i would call todays optimal led light based on available quality tech.
Then there's extended phosphors which this light is not. The High cri is mainly achieved by adding the monos.
The 470 , 630, 660 & 740 Oslons & x2 whites has already made a difference. Cant wait to see 385-430 added to that.
Should be here within a week.
Im All about the SBS bro.!! And hope to.
 
Me thinks the 385 to 430 is going to make the biggest improvement, i can't wait to see it in action. I know what you mean about different leds and different plant responses. I have a Philips 90 cri 5000k and a vesta 90 cri 5000k light. The vesta pushes the red hump from the typical 605 peak to 630 and with that more IR, the plants just flat out grow faster and look better with the vesta.
 
Bignutes said:
Me thinks the 385 to 430 is going to make the biggest improvement, i can't wait to see it in action. I know what you mean about different leds and different plant responses. I have a Philips 90 cri 5000k and a vesta 90 cri 5000k light. The vesta pushes the red hump from the typical 605 peak to 630 and with that more IR, the plants just flat out grow faster and look better with the vesta.
Click to expand...
Dont forget the ir or n/ir. Its all Synergistic.
Try mono enhanced. Thats where the noticable differences occur the most. But yeah, you see already.
 
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Bignutes said:
I laughed my ass off at your first comment.

What your describing is the definition of heat and it's thermodynamic properties which follow the first and second law of thermodynamics. Heat is transferred in a few ways but as it pertains to plants is mainly through radiation which is as you describe. Its also in conduction and radiation into the root system but thats different than what we are talking about here.

Its a photon exciting the plants pigments but more specifically at the subatomic level which involves the excitation of electrons into the next orbital state and this herein describes the transfer of radiant heat and it's effect on the metabolic rate of photosynthesis of the plant. There are different pigments and these capture different wavelengths.

Chlorophyll-a absorbs most at 430 nm and 660 nm, it also contains a magnesium molecule in it's molecular chain. Most LEDs are lacking at 430 nm and to a lesser extent 660 nm. Funny thing is chlorophyll-a is the most abundant pigment in plants yet Leds don't cater to ch-a, but rather to ch-b.

Choloropyll-b on the other hand absorbs most at 453 nm and 642 nm. LEDS are more geared to drive the ch. b molecule which doesn't have a magnesium molecule.

If i were a betting man my observation is if you dont provide the plant with enough light energy at 430 or 660 it has to overcompensate and expend more of its energy to manufacture more of its dominant pigment chlorophyll-a than would otherwise be necessary (in the sun). It needs to increase the amount of surface area of the chlorophyll-a to capture the relatively small amount of 430 and 660 wavelength light leds produce thereby generating a heavy dependance on magnesium because magnesium is in its molecular structure. To note chlorophyll-a is the only pigment molecule that contains a magnesium molecule. Also add in that ch-a also absorbs a good deal of light between 320 nm and 430 nm which current leds dont provide. Plants are a chameleon, they generate different pigments at different wavelengths to accomodate the lighting conditions we provide but this takes the plant more out of its "happy" place and is the reason why we see so many issues with mag deficiencies in indoor growing.
Click to expand...

Can you show a chemical structure of ch b that doesn't have a magnesium molecule. All the ones I can find do.
 
I think the logic or i need to say hypothesis is still relevant. If you have say 50% of the spectrum covered for the chlorophyll pigments maybe the plant needs to produce 40% more chlorophyll than normal to compensate so the plant can balance out it's physiological function, hence the need for more magnesium. In a nut shell the plant needs to produce more chlorophyll to make up for a lack of spectrum. I know that plants will produce more anthocyanins from studies I've seen on youtube and a scientific paper I read when given a certain light so it's not unreasonable to say the plant will generate pigments that cater to the spectrum to allow the plant to adapt and carry out it's purpose. The question that arises is where else would this extra magnesium be going if not to the chlorophyll? For certain we know that the leaves turn yellow as a result of led more often and this is a degradation of chlorophyll (green to yellow color) and extra mag alleviates this problem. I dont think I am saying anything new, or something we didn't know, I am trying to wrap my head around it the cause of it. If you find the source of the problem you can then solve the problem.
 
hybridway2 said:
Agreed! I'm about to be using 385nm, x2 whites, 470, 630,660 + 730nm on Dual channels. I know you'd need the ratios or graph to to see exactly. Just missing the 420 for what i would call todays optimal led light based on available quality tech.
Then there's extended phosphors which this light is not. The High cri is mainly achieved by adding the monos.
The 470 , 630, 660 & 740 Oslons & x2 whites has already made a difference. Cant wait to see 385-430 added to that.
Should be here within a week.
Im All about the SBS bro.!! And hope to.
Click to expand...

It would be good to purposely lower the mag in your experiment on both the control and the test subject this should widen the gap and will amplify the results for a larger difference.
 
kushedy said:
I veg under Samsung strips, no extra calcium or mag at room temperature (about 23c at the mo) with no problems. I flower under my old cxb's, no extra calcium or magnesium with no issues. I do however flower at higher temps (27-30c). I think a lot of people blaming LED's for their problems are experienceing a phenomenon most people refer to as "user error".
Flowering at higher temps with LED's is not news. People have been recommending using higher temps on the forums for years now.
If you change your equipment, be that your lights, medium, nutrient delivery system etc etc you adjust the way you grow to make the most of your new equipment. Either by researching what others have done in your situation or by reading your plants.
If you haven't got the growing chops or can't be arsed to do the research & follow through on it maybe you should go back to hps & stop ball aching.
Click to expand...
Hi can you please recommend a place to buy good Black domina seeds from ?
Thanks
 
Here you go guys:

www.linkedin.com

Quality of Light Part 2- LED Grow Lights - Diffused or clear cover?

In part 1 I have briefly shed light on the importance of quality of light and how depending on the application, grow lighting fixtures might be optimized using optic lenses. If you have missed the part 1 you can find it in the link below: In part 2 of the series I will high light another often misun
www.linkedin.com www.linkedin.com

I have first hand experience with this & found it to be Very True.
 
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