Please help find why my plants were small - organic coco grow

masho95

masho95

Active Member
TL;DR = Did early over watering cause the small growth issue? Maybe coupled with the cheap Amazon kit blurple light. I never got a good watering with the fabric pots. Always seemed to run out the sides of the fabric a lot.

I recently harvested my small yielding plants and they are drying now. While I initially blamed my Amazon kit blurple light after dissecting the root balls of the plants maybe it was a different cause. I found Mr. Canuck's Grow on YouTube like many people and I wanted to emulate his style of grow. It seemed simplistic and appealed to me over other methods. I just didn't think mixing up synthetic nutrients would be fun to me.

So I started the plants directly in 5 gal fabric pots. At the time I didn't think it was a big deal but I think caused the initial over watering due to a tiny seedling in a huge pot. For a first time grower it probably wasn't the best idea lol, but I was trying to be cheap and spread the one 13gal bag of coco w/perlite between three 5 gal pots.

I'm starting to think my early over watering may have lead to their stunted growth. The over watering lead to what i think was a nutrient lockout very early. The first leaves got some yellow quick. I added more coco on day 22, the lower main stem was too weak.

Day 14
BD1_10_22_color.jpg

I misted the top layer all the time. The main stem never seemed to thicken like I see in so many other peoples photographs. I did have a pretty nice looking canopy going into flower. That's kind of when things started to fall apart.

Day 73
BD1_12_5.jpg

The already small stems hit their growth spurt and they burst up in all stem height. Maybe should have lowered the lights even closer after flipping to flower.

Day 74
BD1_12_6.jpg

Day 84

BD1_12_16.jpg

I ended up buying a new SF2000 light at the end of the grow. It's probably more suitable for this tent.

Day 131

BD1_2_16_2020.jpg

Dissected root balls today. There was still damp soil in the middle, even after being 6 almost 7 days without watering.

harvest_2_20_2020 (7).jpg

Main stem and main root

harvest_2_20_2020 (11).jpg

Before I dug away the tiny roots to show the main root. Looks like it was holding the moisture. The roots didn't extend to the bottom of the pot. The ones near the bottom seemed almost folded up like they were root bound in a solid pot.

harvest_2_20_2020 (8).jpg


I had added extra coco at some point towards the end of the grow which was probably not needed one of the roots of the main stem was showing so I thought I should add more. When I emptied the fabric pots all that extra coco was bone dry at the top and revealed this under it. Each of the plants were pretty similar. Again this was 6 almost 7 days of no water.

harvest_2_20_2020 (21).jpg


Did the soil compact from over watering preventing proper growth? Would I be better off sticking to normal pots? I appreciate any advice! Thanks!
 

Attachments

masho95

masho95

Active Member
Bose said:
That coco is to dry. Make up your nutrients and water till you get 10 to 20% runoff. Cico should never be left to dry out.
Click to expand...
Organic grow. Nutrients amended right into the soil. I wanted the plants dry as I put them into 2 days of darkness prior to cutting them down.

I watered when the pots started to feel light. I never got any indication from the plants of under watering like drooping leaves.
 
O

oill

Well-Known Member
masho95 said:
Organic grow. Nutrients amended right into the soil. I wanted the plants dry as I put them into 2 days of darkness prior to cutting them down.

I watered when the pots started to feel light. I never got any indication from the plants of under watering like drooping leaves.
Click to expand...
They are small coz you under fertilised. You need to apply fertiliser with every watering. Its not like soil. It doesn't hold onto nutes.
 
Gentlemencorpse

Gentlemencorpse

Well-Known Member
Definitely not overwatering. Best guess is a combination of not enough light and not enough nutrients. I think you missed the part where Mr Canuck mixes more nutrients in at each transplant (which you never transplanted) or top dresses with more dry nutrients throughout the grow. Coco just won't hold enough nutrients for a whole grow if you just mix them in at the first planting.
 
masho95

masho95

Active Member
Gentlemencorpse said:
Definitely not overwatering. Best guess is a combination of not enough light and not enough nutrients. I think you missed the part where Mr Canuck mixes more nutrients in at each transplant (which you never transplanted) or top dresses with more dry nutrients throughout the grow. Coco just won't hold enough nutrients for a whole grow if you just mix them in at the first planting.
Click to expand...
I think I got worried with the amount of water I gave them after the initial problems, even though once the root system developed they could have used more.

Yeah they were amended every 30 days. I noticed after a couple feeds they would have been better off every 21 days so the last feed was done 3 weeks after the last.
 
O

oill

Well-Known Member
masho95 said:
I think I got worried with the amount of water I gave them after the initial problems, even though once the root system developed they could have used more.

Yeah they were amended every 30 days. I noticed after a couple feeds they would have been better off every 21 days so the last feed was done 3 weeks after the last.
Click to expand...
Yeah that won't work...


It's called fertigation.... water and nutes... every day in coco.

My system fertigates for 8mins every day and I see about 1/8th the medium volume of water come out the bottom of the pots each time. This ensures fresh water and notes every day and stops salt build up. There is no dry back period... it needs to be 80 to 90% saturated. Its coco....
 
Last edited:
purpaterp

purpaterp

Well-Known Member
masho95 said:
TL;DR = Did early over watering cause the small growth issue? Maybe coupled with the cheap Amazon kit blurple light. I never got a good watering with the fabric pots. Always seemed to run out the sides of the fabric a lot.

I recently harvested my small yielding plants and they are drying now. While I initially blamed my Amazon kit blurple light after dissecting the root balls of the plants maybe it was a different cause. I found Mr. Canuck's Grow on YouTube like many people and I wanted to emulate his style of grow. It seemed simplistic and appealed to me over other methods. I just didn't think mixing up synthetic nutrients would be fun to me.

So I started the plants directly in 5 gal fabric pots. At the time I didn't think it was a big deal but I think caused the initial over watering due to a tiny seedling in a huge pot. For a first time grower it probably wasn't the best idea lol, but I was trying to be cheap and spread the one 13gal bag of coco w/perlite between three 5 gal pots.

I'm starting to think my early over watering may have lead to their stunted growth. The over watering lead to what i think was a nutrient lockout very early. The first leaves got some yellow quick. I added more coco on day 22, the lower main stem was too weak.

Day 14
View attachment 4484379

I misted the top layer all the time. The main stem never seemed to thicken like I see in so many other peoples photographs. I did have a pretty nice looking canopy going into flower. That's kind of when things started to fall apart.

Day 73
View attachment 4484380

The already small stems hit their growth spurt and they burst up in all stem height. Maybe should have lowered the lights even closer after flipping to flower.

Day 74
View attachment 4484383

Day 84

View attachment 4484386

I ended up buying a new SF2000 light at the end of the grow. It's probably more suitable for this tent.

Day 131

View attachment 4484391

Dissected root balls today. There was still damp soil in the middle, even after being 6 almost 7 days without watering.

View attachment 4484392

Main stem and main root

View attachment 4484393

Before I dug away the tiny roots to show the main root. Looks like it was holding the moisture. The roots didn't extend to the bottom of the pot. The ones near the bottom seemed almost folded up like they were root bound in a solid pot.

View attachment 4484394


I had added extra coco at some point towards the end of the grow which was probably not needed one of the roots of the main stem was showing so I thought I should add more. When I emptied the fabric pots all that extra coco was bone dry at the top and revealed this under it. Each of the plants were pretty similar. Again this was 6 almost 7 days of no water.

View attachment 4484398


Did the soil compact from over watering preventing proper growth? Would I be better off sticking to normal pots? I appreciate any advice! Thanks!
Click to expand...
Mr Canuck is trying to help but never ever start in a big container. Always pot up no matter photo or auto you need a nice root mass built up to yield anything. If you start in a big container the tap root immediately grows to the bottom of the container leaving a lot of empty space and costing you. Bigger roots equal bigger fruits.
 
O

oill

Well-Known Member
purpaterp said:
Mr Canuck is trying to help but never ever start in a big container. Always pot up no matter photo or auto you need a nice root mass built up to yield anything. If you start in a big container the tap root immediately grows to the bottom of the container leaving a lot of empty space and costing you. Bigger roots equal bigger fruits.
Click to expand...
Agree with this. My current grow went directly into big pots. It's gone ok... but would have been bigger if I had potted up in smaller before
 
T macc

T macc

Well-Known Member
I run organic coco as well. No, you do not use bottled nutes in organics. Synthetic ferts are salts, which would kill the microorganisms in the soil (coco).

And you can plant in any size container you want. I use to plant seeds in 45 gals.

masho95 said:
TL;DR = Did early over watering cause the small growth issue? Maybe coupled with the cheap Amazon kit blurple light. I never got a good watering with the fabric pots. Always seemed to run out the sides of the fabric a lot.

I recently harvested my small yielding plants and they are drying now. While I initially blamed my Amazon kit blurple light after dissecting the root balls of the plants maybe it was a different cause. I found Mr. Canuck's Grow on YouTube like many people and I wanted to emulate his style of grow. It seemed simplistic and appealed to me over other methods. I just didn't think mixing up synthetic nutrients would be fun to me.

So I started the plants directly in 5 gal fabric pots. At the time I didn't think it was a big deal but I think caused the initial over watering due to a tiny seedling in a huge pot. For a first time grower it probably wasn't the best idea lol, but I was trying to be cheap and spread the one 13gal bag of coco w/perlite between three 5 gal pots.

I'm starting to think my early over watering may have lead to their stunted growth. The over watering lead to what i think was a nutrient lockout very early. The first leaves got some yellow quick. I added more coco on day 22, the lower main stem was too weak.

Day 14
View attachment 4484379

I misted the top layer all the time. The main stem never seemed to thicken like I see in so many other peoples photographs. I did have a pretty nice looking canopy going into flower. That's kind of when things started to fall apart.

Day 73
View attachment 4484380

The already small stems hit their growth spurt and they burst up in all stem height. Maybe should have lowered the lights even closer after flipping to flower.

Day 74
View attachment 4484383

Day 84

View attachment 4484386

I ended up buying a new SF2000 light at the end of the grow. It's probably more suitable for this tent.

Day 131

View attachment 4484391

Dissected root balls today. There was still damp soil in the middle, even after being 6 almost 7 days without watering.

View attachment 4484392

Main stem and main root

View attachment 4484393

Before I dug away the tiny roots to show the main root. Looks like it was holding the moisture. The roots didn't extend to the bottom of the pot. The ones near the bottom seemed almost folded up like they were root bound in a solid pot.

View attachment 4484394


I had added extra coco at some point towards the end of the grow which was probably not needed one of the roots of the main stem was showing so I thought I should add more. When I emptied the fabric pots all that extra coco was bone dry at the top and revealed this under it. Each of the plants were pretty similar. Again this was 6 almost 7 days of no water.

View attachment 4484398


Did the soil compact from over watering preventing proper growth? Would I be better off sticking to normal pots? I appreciate any advice! Thanks!
Click to expand...
You let your medium dry out too much. Did you pre-soak before you planted? Take a skewer, or anything to mix the soil, and water in intervals. This will get the bottom layer wet again. Next time.

When you watered, you got the top layer of soil wet but the bottom layer became hydrophobic due to a lack of water. I'm assuming you put you dry medium in a pot, watered it and then planted? Follow the mix and interval thing above. If I have soil sitting around, dried out and not being used, mine gets the same way.

Dont let your medium dry out completely. Also dont keep it too wet like hydro coco. It's a balance. I would highly recommend a bacteria inoculate. BuildaSoil has KNF, or get some worm castings. This is to keep microorganisms to thrive, since coco is inert and doesn't hold bacteria well on it's own to break down.

Another thing I would recommend is a Blumat for watering, if you have the cash and space. I love mine.

Organic coco and organic soil are similar, coco just needs a little more calcium
 
O

oill

Well-Known Member
T macc said:
When you watered, you got the top layer of soil wet but the bottom layer became hydrophobic due to a lack of water. I'm assuming you put you dry medium in a pot, watered it and then planted? Follow the mix and interval thing above. If I have soil sitting around, dried out and not being used, mine gets the same way.
Click to expand...
You can also put the pot in a bag and flood the whole thing. Then puncture the bag and let it run away after 15 mins of soaking. This makes sure it's all soaked properly.
 
Father Ramirez

Father Ramirez

Well-Known Member
masho95 said:
I never got a good watering with the fabric pots. Always seemed to run out the sides of the fabric a lot.
Click to expand...
Fabric pots require the making of a circular ditch around the roots. When it’s watered it briefly resembles a moat around a castle. This prevents water running out and down without penetrating the soil
 
masho95

masho95

Active Member
T macc said:
You let your medium dry out too much. Did you pre-soak before you planted? Take a skewer, or anything to mix the soil, and water in intervals. This will get the bottom layer wet again. Next time.

When you watered, you got the top layer of soil wet but the bottom layer became hydrophobic due to a lack of water. I'm assuming you put you dry medium in a pot, watered it and then planted? Follow the mix and interval thing above. If I have soil sitting around, dried out and not being used, mine gets the same way.
Click to expand...
How do you know I let the coco dry out too much? Based on root growth or just the moisture level in the pictures? What do you mean pre-soak? I didn't use a coco brick if that's what you mean, used a ready to go coco/perlite mix from Mother Earth. Then mixture was already moist but i planted the seeds directly into the coco and gave a tiny bit of water.

I'm not sure what you mean with the skewer and mixing the coco and water? Is this part of the pre soak?
I see so much conflicting info out there on coco coir grows. Some say it need to stay wet always. Others say it needs a wet/dry cycle. Almost sounds like the flushing vs. non-flushing debate.

I apologize for all the questions, but appreciate all these responses.
 
T macc

T macc

Well-Known Member
masho95 said:
How do you know I let the coco dry out too much? Based on root growth or just the moisture level in the pictures? What do you mean pre-soak? I didn't use a coco brick if that's what you mean, used a ready to go coco/perlite mix from Mother Earth. Then mixture was already moist but i planted the seeds directly into the coco and gave a tiny bit of water.

I'm not sure what you mean with the skewer and mixing the coco and water? Is this part of the pre soak?
I see so much conflicting info out there on coco coir grows. Some say it need to stay wet always. Others say it needs a wet/dry cycle. Almost sounds like the flushing vs. non-flushing debate.

I apologize for all the questions, but appreciate all these responses.
Click to expand...
Root growth and the moisture level. The bottom of the pot was hydrophobic and water ran thru the sides instead of being soaked. What I mean by a presoak is ensuring the coco is wet all the way thru the pot. And that's where the skewer comes in, to mix wet coco with hydrophobic coco. Was the coco dry when you used it?

Using dry amendments in coco isn't the norm. Talking about it usually leads to ppl saying you need to use salt nutes in your water only mix. (Not taking shots at anyone in the thread). I guess I can say, water enough to keep your medium from drying too much
 
masho95

masho95

Active Member
T macc said:
Root growth and the moisture level. The bottom of the pot was hydrophobic and water ran thru the sides instead of being soaked. What I mean by a presoak is ensuring the coco is wet all the way thru the pot. And that's where the skewer comes in, to mix wet coco with hydrophobic coco. Was the coco dry when you used it?

Using dry amendments in coco isn't the norm. Talking about it usually leads to ppl saying you need to use salt nutes in your water only mix. (Not taking shots at anyone in the thread). I guess I can say, water enough to keep your medium from drying too much
Click to expand...
I guess this is all making sense now. Due to using larger 5 gal pots to start I was basically only watering with enough water for the seedlings to wet the top of the 5 gal pots. It was moist out of the bag, but when no water reached it then it became hydrophobic and no water was really making it past half the pot. Would explain why none of the plants roots extended down farther than half the pot. They stopped growing where there wasn't water.

I'm assuming the skewer method would have to be done on the edges of the pot to not disturb the roots as much?
Yeah from what I'm gathering plain watering with dry amendments isn't widely done, I was confused when people where responding back with talk about salt build up. Anyways I think all the major issues will be cleared up when I start the next grow and properly up pot. That combined with a better light. Thanks again.
 
T macc

T macc

Well-Known Member
masho95 said:
I guess this is all making sense now. Due to using larger 5 gal pots to start I was basically only watering with enough water for the seedlings to wet the top of the 5 gal pots. It was moist out of the bag, but when no water reached it then it became hydrophobic and no water was really making it past half the pot. Would explain why none of the plants roots extended down farther than half the pot. They stopped growing where there wasn't water.
Click to expand...
Exactly

masho95 said:
I'm assuming the skewer method would have to be done on the edges of the pot to not disturb the roots as much?
Yeah from what I'm gathering plain watering with dry amendments isn't widely done, I was confused when people where responding back with talk about salt build up. Anyways I think all the major issues will be cleared up when I start the next grow and properly up pot. That combined with a better light. Thanks again.
Click to expand...
The skewer thing was more of a tip if your (re)using dried coco. If you do run into this sort of problem again, dont be afraid to jab something into your pot. The roots that break will create more roots, like air pruning. Oill had mentioned sub irrigation. That's another option for soaking the pot. Get a saucer, or not, and let it soak up the run off. Or lift the pots into a bucket or bathtub
 
xtsho

xtsho

Well-Known Member
T macc said:
I run organic coco as well. No, you do not use bottled nutes in organics. Synthetic ferts are salts, which would kill the microorganisms in the soil (coco).

And you can plant in any size container you want. I use to plant seeds in 45 gals.


You let your medium dry out too much. Did you pre-soak before you planted? Take a skewer, or anything to mix the soil, and water in intervals. This will get the bottom layer wet again. Next time.

When you watered, you got the top layer of soil wet but the bottom layer became hydrophobic due to a lack of water. I'm assuming you put you dry medium in a pot, watered it and then planted? Follow the mix and interval thing above. If I have soil sitting around, dried out and not being used, mine gets the same way.

Dont let your medium dry out completely. Also dont keep it too wet like hydro coco. It's a balance. I would highly recommend a bacteria inoculate. BuildaSoil has KNF, or get some worm castings. This is to keep microorganisms to thrive, since coco is inert and doesn't hold bacteria well on it's own to break down.

Another thing I would recommend is a Blumat for watering, if you have the cash and space. I love mine.

Organic coco and organic soil are similar, coco just needs a little more calcium
Click to expand...
Blumats and coco are a winning combination.
 
dragnit

dragnit

Well-Known Member
I grow with coco and water until run off every day with fertilizer in every watering. Some times if I feel like it twice a day. I don't think you can do organic with coco because of continuous leaching of the coco.
 
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