Three Berries
Well-Known Member
The plant would not be taking up Potassium bicarbonate. Potassium for sure but it has to be liberated from the bicarbonate before it can be used. The carbonates just turn into CO2.
Potassium Bicarbonate - is it really safe to use in flower!? Material safety data is concerning
- Thread starter jynzy420
- Start date
Dorian2
Well-Known Member
I agree. The one time I had to use it in the indoor grow was early veg. I'm pretty aware and cautious of what I'm putting on/in the plants. Our climate is really cool in the Winter so I probably don't see as much action with critters like others on the forum. Used Safer's a couple times on the tomato and pepper plants outside though.
ooof-da
Well-Known Member
Ya. I’m not disputing anything just saying that by in large the reason we have HAZCOM and SDS sheets is for other reasons then if it’s safe to “smoke” direct whole product.
jynzy420
Active Member
I really appreciate your willingness to discuss this. I am brand new to growing and I love to learn. All information I obtain, I pass along to my elderly mom who is also growing, and the last thing I want to do is cause her any harm.
My gut tells me your assumption is more than like correct, about a heavily diluted spray bottle not posing a threat, especially considering how many use the material in their grows. But I couldn't find any supporting studies, only blogs telling me it's safe.
Definitely not saying PB is harmful, I don't know enough about it to make such a claim. That's why the title was in the form of a question, not statement - so figured I'd throw up a thread to see what others thought or have found in their research. Or at least, lead me in the right direction of how to further my research, which several have and I am grateful. I feel like the cannabis industry is ever changing and with it not being legal for long here in the US, there is still a wide range of research to be done as to what is really safe and what is not.
And no hard feelings whatsoever from your initial reply
jynzy420
Active Member
I just inherited a 30 yr old ficus bonsai tree and it came COVERED in Neem and now everything around it is sticky and coated. I don't know how that would ever come out of a bud
jynzy420
Active Member
Thank you, this was really helpful! Do you have any idea how long the carbonates take to convert to CO2, just curious.
PJ Diaz
Well-Known Member
StonedGardener
Well-Known Member
You are the first person here to reference a MSDS sheet( maybe I missed some mentions).....very smart dude..."products of combustion:, residuals, carcinogen potential etc.....I don't know if people do their homework when using chemicals. I was in this biz for 40yrs........lots of nasties out there.
Three Berries
Well-Known Member
How would the plant uptake Potassium Bicarbonate? What happens to KHCO3 when it is oxidize by the acids?
Here is the formula showing the decomposition of KHCO3 by nitric acid as HNO3
KHCO3 (aq) + HNO3 (aq) → KNO3 (aq) + H2O (l) + CO2 (g)
As soon as a radical H+ ion from an acid finds Mr KNO3 then that formula happens. There should be no uptake of the actual KNO3 into the plant.
Here is the formula showing the decomposition of KHCO3 by nitric acid as HNO3
KHCO3 (aq) + HNO3 (aq) → KNO3 (aq) + H2O (l) + CO2 (g)
As soon as a radical H+ ion from an acid finds Mr KNO3 then that formula happens. There should be no uptake of the actual KNO3 into the plant.
Three Berries
Well-Known Member
Looks like the bigger issue is what acid does the decomposition of Potassium Bicarbonate.
So what are the acids that drive the soil pH down? Nitric, Phosphorus, Carbonic? Carbonic is an organic acid and not as powerful of a reactant. EDIT: Carbonic acid would not be in the equation as that is how the KCO3 is originally made from raw K.
Nitric acid and KNO3 will give you Potassium Nitrate or nitrogen fertilizer.
Potassium nitrate is used in fertilizers as a source of nitrogen and potassium – two of the macronutrients for plants. When used by itself, it has an NPK rating of 13-0-44.[29][30]
The most famous use of potassium nitrate is probably as the oxidizer in blackpowder. From the most ancient times until the late 1880s, blackpowder provided the explosive power for all the world's firearms. After that time, small arms and large artillery increasingly began to depend on cordite, a smokeless powder. Blackpowder remains in use today in black powder rocket motors, but also in combination with other fuels like sugars in "rocket candy". It is also used in fireworks such as smoke bombs.[17] It is also added to cigarettes to maintain an even burn of the tobacco[18] and is used to ensure complete combustion of paper cartridges for cap and ball revolvers.[19] It can also be heated to several hundred degrees to be used for niter bluing, which is less durable than other forms of protective oxidation, but allows for specific and often beautiful coloration of steel parts, such as screws, pins, and other small parts of firearms.
en.wikipedia.org
So what are the acids that drive the soil pH down? Nitric, Phosphorus, Carbonic? Carbonic is an organic acid and not as powerful of a reactant. EDIT: Carbonic acid would not be in the equation as that is how the KCO3 is originally made from raw K.
Nitric acid and KNO3 will give you Potassium Nitrate or nitrogen fertilizer.
Potassium nitrate is used in fertilizers as a source of nitrogen and potassium – two of the macronutrients for plants. When used by itself, it has an NPK rating of 13-0-44.[29][30]
The most famous use of potassium nitrate is probably as the oxidizer in blackpowder. From the most ancient times until the late 1880s, blackpowder provided the explosive power for all the world's firearms. After that time, small arms and large artillery increasingly began to depend on cordite, a smokeless powder. Blackpowder remains in use today in black powder rocket motors, but also in combination with other fuels like sugars in "rocket candy". It is also used in fireworks such as smoke bombs.[17] It is also added to cigarettes to maintain an even burn of the tobacco[18] and is used to ensure complete combustion of paper cartridges for cap and ball revolvers.[19] It can also be heated to several hundred degrees to be used for niter bluing, which is less durable than other forms of protective oxidation, but allows for specific and often beautiful coloration of steel parts, such as screws, pins, and other small parts of firearms.
Potassium nitrate - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
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jynzy420
Active Member
Thanks!! Living in a world where cigarettes were promoted for pregnant women, asbestos was safe in buildings, DDT was safe for insect control on crops and livestock, I feel one should ALWAYS do their own research. It worries me seeing everyone sucked into this "don't panic it's organic" motto. Just because we can use it on food doesn't mean it's safe to use on cannabis as the method of consumption is much different with it being smoked and lit on fire. Hell, an UNLIT cigarette has roughly 600 substances, but once LIT ON FIRE that converts to over 7,000!!! This motto and thought process of "it's safe on food so safe on cannabis" could pose some seriously dangerous risks if not researched further.
jynzy420
Active Member
Tangerine_
Well-Known Member
Exactly. That data is for scene safety for FF, FR, LE, and EMS and doesnt apply here.
Smoking fungal spores is far more detrimental to the respiratory system than a heavily diluted foliar spray of potassium bicarbonate.
Its good to question things but you're overthinking this one.
Three Berries
Well-Known Member
So are you spraying this on the plant? Or are you saying the plant takes up KNO3 and it accumulates in the plant?
jynzy420
Active Member
To each their own. That's the wonderful thing about being able to think for yourself.
You say this with sheer confidence, so perhaps you will know if there a safety data sheet that is used for these specific circumstances of application?
I don't believe potassium bicarbonate is the only way to kill/combat powdery mildew, so if it does potentially pose an unknown health risk, shouldn't it be thought about vs just so easily dismissed? The cannabis industry is ever growing and science evolves daily. What was once thought to be safe, is proved opposite today. Do you know how that happened? BY SOMEONE OVERTHINKING!!!!!!!
To each their own...
You say this with sheer confidence, so perhaps you will know if there a safety data sheet that is used for these specific circumstances of application?
I don't believe potassium bicarbonate is the only way to kill/combat powdery mildew, so if it does potentially pose an unknown health risk, shouldn't it be thought about vs just so easily dismissed? The cannabis industry is ever growing and science evolves daily. What was once thought to be safe, is proved opposite today. Do you know how that happened? BY SOMEONE OVERTHINKING!!!!!!!
To each their own...
PJ Diaz
Well-Known Member
To me the issue is that of the left over particulates on the plant which you would be potentially smoking.
PJ Diaz
Well-Known Member
Exactly, and in my opinion there are much better methods. Of course, controlling your environment should always be the first step. Personally I'd much rather spray a bacterial based fungicide on my plant than something that belongs in a fire extinguisher.
Three Berries
Well-Known Member
Nicotine tea is easy to make and harmless as far as the residue left on the plant. Also a good pain killer and antiseptic for open wounds too.
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PJ Diaz
Well-Known Member
This stuff is cheap as chips, works well, and is approved for organic use:
Tangerine_
Well-Known Member
The science shows its safe for crops including tobacco. If you have some data or primary publications that refute those claims I'd be willing to curse over it. After all, the only thing that refutes science is better science.
This stuff is cheap as chips, works well, and is approved for organic use:
I use something similar (Cease) in my IPM. Its proven to be very effective but given the nature of this thread it should be noted that most crops will fail microbial testing (TAC) with those types of biofungicides. I think this is why many commercial grow ops choose the citric acid solutions rather than potassium salts/fats and soaps that can be caustic?