Problems in Growing White Widows - about 12 Days since Germination Process Began

Hello guys! this is such a useful forum, I have already read the FAQ thread (up to question 15).

Pics are below, uploaded to imageshack because forum downgrades pictures, and you couldnt see anything to help me then




PS: The white thing int he middle is temperature sensor.


The third one in the pic (which is not open yet) has been this way for about a week! I am not sure what to make of it? its not dying, but not growing either. It had a minor crisis - I saw its main stem getting thinner, so performed an emergency operation on it, and put it a bit deeper into the rock wool, and closed the hole so no light hits the roots (did the same for the other 2 which still looked ok at the time).

Yesterday, one of the plants was already leaning at less tahn 45 degrees, which started to worry me somewhat.

Today, I moved the large Rockwools into the big pot in the pictures, lowered the lamp by about half (before the picture, was twice higher for the lamp).

And I have several questions now:

1. As you can see in the pictures, during moving the Rockwools into the pot, the stems have 'fallen' and now the plans are laying! this is worrying me very much... I was told wait, give it time until tomorrow morning (I am turning off the light as soon as I finish typing and going to sleep ).
I read on the FAQ, it is advised to use a cotton buds, or something like that to help stabilize it?

2. Do you suggest I engage the Fan? I have bought a fan especially to create a little wind to a) help stabilize roots when they lean somewhere, and b) make them stronger like in a real wind. The fan is positioned 1.5 meters from the plans, and when activated, it creates wind like you get going 10 km/hr in a bike, I would guess I think - is that too strong? too wear? I could engage higher level of fan rotation.

3. I have a huge problem with the PH!! I cant isolated it - even on a dry run, the PH keeps rising, I balance it to 5.5 or so, and by next day its 6.5 or 7+ if unlucky.
Even just putting balanced water in a clean container with nothing else, has PH rising, albeit slower - and I tested it in antoher house too, to eliminate environmental causes (yay for the Scientific method! ).
For example, 7 hours ago I balanced to perfect 5.8, and now water is already at 6.2 with EC holding steady 1.9 (I have expensive meter here, with glass sensors with special liquids..). Should I simply give up on solving the problem, and just keep balancing out the water? if so how long to wait? try to balance it before the actual watering time?

4. Watering - as you can see in the picture, the water timer is set to 4 times a day, for 15 minutes (pic a bit outdated, its set to 1 notch now). Should I keep it at that? or maybe make it less? I am thinking, perhaps best to balance it so it re-waters around the time the Rockwool lost half its weight in soaked water?

5. Humidity - I saw entirely no reference to humidity in the FAQ threads - what is optimal? currently at the room it is 39%.

6. Air circulation - As you can see in the pics, I have air filtering system in place, capable of pumping over 400 cubic meters per hour, to clean the air, and draw fresh air into the room (the room is at -1 level, so fresh air doesnt get in here easily) - how important is it to provide the plant with fresh air? if its not, I'd rather put the thing on a timer to save on electricity, to something like 1 hour on, 1 hour off? any suggestions?

7. Temperature - From what I understand, recommended is 24, and not to cross the 26 degrees celsius? When I turn on the Fan, temp drops to 21 degrees (I was told not to allow below 20 degrees - true?) and without fan, it is at 23.4 right now (night time..). Suggestions please?



Your patience helping out a new a little too impatient grower is highly appreciated!!

IMHO, not enough light. They look stretched to hell and fell over.

i am no expert but to me i would say that your light is to high and the plants are growing to tall.try to drop the light as close as u can(a good way to see if your lights are to close is to put your hand between your plant and light for 5 mins and if your hand gets to hot then its to hot for the plant) in my grow i got going now my leafs look the same size as yours but the stem is only 1.5/2 inches tall.

I would definately not water them everyday. Overwatering is easily overlooked and has drastic results sometimes. I only watered my seedlings every other day until they were roughly a week and a half old You're going to wanna get your humidity levels up to over 50% at least I'd say. Higher humidity during Veg and lower humidity levels during flowering. What kind of lights are you using and what light cycle are you currently running? Granted seedlings dont need ALOT of light, but the amount of light they receive also depends on the type of light your operating as well. More info you can give us means more help you'll be able to receive

Well thanks, I will reduce the distance from light source and turn on the Fan to reduce temperature as well.
Light is a big Eurolux 120Watt fluorscent 6500K I believe operating on 18-6 cycle, will check the label later box is in the car.

What do you suggest I do about the stems? help steady them up somehow? are these not lost cause yet cause of their extreme height?

edit: how to increase humidity levels?

Excellent post. I will be watching to see how it turns out.

Don't mess with te stems for now. If it is a CFL bulb, stick it right up on that plant (2-3"). That will fix your stretching. Make sure the bulb is right above the plants so they grow upwards. Also, when they are that young, don't use nutrients and make sure their medium is kept moist, that's all. I water rock wool cubes with as little as a tablespoon in morning/night to keep them moist.
Water from the bottom if u can, your roots should be searching for water downwards, getting bigger.

Gidon said:

Today, I moved the large

3. I have a huge problem with the PH!! I cant isolated it - even on a dry run, the PH keeps rising, I balance it to 5.5 or so, and by next day its 6.5 or 7+ if unlucky.

Click to expand...

Ok, there is a couple things that will help you with this:
1- After your plants are big enough to start feeding nutrients (especially at 100% strength) the nutes are tuned to help ph your water to usually around 6.0 aprox. and the nutes will help stabalize your ph with little to no shift.

2- if the ph of your tap water is high like mine (8.0-9.0), and you ph your water to 5.8, that's a 3.2 difference, and as time passes your tap water will slowly beat out the ph down you used lol, causing it to slowly rise. You can help this by using 1/2 tap water, 1/2 R/o water. (r/o is a lower ph and also less ppms making it easier to adjust ph.

Hope is helps!

I have followed an awesome suggestion by russ0r, on using straws to help stabilize the stems.
New pictures are therefore attached, but the temperature (with Fan rotating at lowest setting to dissipate the heat), is at 26 degrees celsius so far.
There doesnt seem to be much room for growing for the plant.

Any feedback on this situation, especially regarding temperature at the canopy (which is now 9cm from lamp..)? if none, will see what happens in a day or so, whether it improves.

EDIT: forgot the pictures:

Livetowin said:

Ok, there is a couple things that will help you with this:
1- After your plants are big enough to start feeding nutrients (especially at 100% strength) the nutes are tuned to help ph your water to usually around 6.0 aprox. and the nutes will help stabalize your ph with little to no shift.

2- if the ph of your tap water is high like mine (8.0-9.0), and you ph your water to 5.8, that's a 3.2 difference, and as time passes your tap water will slowly beat out the ph down you used lol, causing it to slowly rise. You can help this by using 1/2 tap water, 1/2 R/o water. (r/o is a lower ph and also less ppms making it easier to adjust ph.

Hope is helps!

Click to expand...

Thanks! but I am not sure I understand:
1 - What do you mean big enough to feed? are they not currently? I have already begun feeding them with nutrients A, B growth and Root nutrient (R I used since germination stage). Also - how are the nutes suppose to help stabilize PH? as I understand, they are neutral, and also I first add the nutes, then balance out the PH of the mixed water.
2 - It is high like that, I think around 8 or so.. anyway what is R/o water? and what is ppms?

This is outstanding, cant wait to see how this turns out.... As stated above, you need to bring the light ALOT closer. with stretching like that I (personally) would just start over. It's going to be so much bs to get them stems to thicken up and having to fight to keep em up straight and not to mention the serious problem that will come with the weight of buds in flowering. Not saying it can't be done but judging for your experience or lack there of it's gonna be a headache. But you decide to keep this going we are all here to help you. Provided you keep these, I would move the light closer, get more light asap. Now for your questions:

Humidity: You can put a bowl of water in your cubby and as it evaporates it will raise the ph. I like to use a beach towel, I get it good and wet and just leave it lay there. Or you can hang wet paper towel from the ceiling in there. With the towel you have to watch for the slightest sign of mold.

Temp: You can keep it anywhere from 65-80F and be just fine. Dont let it hassle you to much. Just dont let it get below 60 and above 90. Above and below these marks causes stress which slows plant growth.

Feeding: I would wait a couple weeks but if you have them started on nutes already and they are taking to it no reason to stop.

RO water: It has a neutral Ph value which means its easier to adjust and it will hold once adjusted. It works good for hydro aero and soil but not a must for soil since the plants go through it rather quickly.

Fan: Best if you turn it on like yesterday. lol Have it oscilating the fans help to increase stem thickness, it causes vibrations like simulating the natural breeze outside it stimulates them and promotes growth,,,, bulking them up to help withstand the wind.

With your stems Well, I would def worry about them now. You can either take a popsicle stick and stand it straight up and using bread ties, ties you stem to it to keep it vertical. Or take a long strong cut it to the length you need, cut a slit all the down one side of it so it opens up, slip it over the stem so the stem is inside the straw push it down in the clay so it stands up., if it down stand take some yarn/string and tie it to the outside of the pot on four sides to hold it up. If you dont have holes in the rim of your planters or something to tie off to drill some with a drill and a small drill bit. These holes will also help you to lst your plant if desired in flower. Hope something in this post helped you out. Good luck and I'm sub'd

hitthisshit said:

This is outstanding, cant wait to see how this turns out.... As stated above, you need to bring the light ALOT closer. with stretching like that I (personally) would just start over. It's going to be so much bs to get them stems to thicken up and having to fight to keep em up straight and not to mention the serious problem that will come with the weight of buds in flowering. Not saying it can't be done but judging for your experience or lack there of it's gonna be a headache. But you decide to keep this going we are all here to help you. Provided you keep these, I would move the light closer, get more light asap. Now for your questions:

Humidity: You can put a bowl of water in your cubby and as it evaporates it will raise the ph. I like to use a beach towel, I get it good and wet and just leave it lay there. Or you can hang wet paper towel from the ceiling in there. With the towel you have to watch for the slightest sign of mold.

Temp: You can keep it anywhere from 65-80F and be just fine. Dont let it hassle you to much. Just dont let it get below 60 and above 90. Above and below these marks causes stress which slows plant growth.

Feeding: I would wait a couple weeks but if you have them started on nutes already and they are taking to it no reason to stop.

RO water: It has a neutral Ph value which means its easier to adjust and it will hold once adjusted. It works good for hydro aero and soil but not a must for soil since the plants go through it rather quickly.

Fan: Best if you turn it on like yesterday. lol Have it oscilating the fans help to increase stem thickness, it causes vibrations like simulating the natural breeze outside it stimulates them and promotes growth,,,, bulking them up to help withstand the wind.

With your stems Well, I would def worry about them now. You can either take a popsicle stick and stand it straight up and using bread ties, ties you stem to it to keep it vertical. Or take a long strong cut it to the length you need, cut a slit all the down one side of it so it opens up, slip it over the stem so the stem is inside the straw push it down in the clay so it stands up., if it down stand take some yarn/string and tie it to the outside of the pot on four sides to hold it up. If you dont have holes in the rim of your planters or something to tie off to drill some with a drill and a small drill bit. These holes will also help you to lst your plant if desired in flower. Hope something in this post helped you out. Good luck and I'm sub'd

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Yes thank you! I will re-read again later as I am heading out to bar and movie righ tnow

Have you seen the pictures? I forgot to add them added in an edit to my above post, I already added a straw to hold the stem.

Your words about temperature puts me at some ease of mind, but its already at 26.6 degrees celsius (about 80 F) at the canopy height as you can see on the pictures! what happens when it resumes growing higher and even closer to the lamp? I dont understand how are the suggestions for this lamp say 2-3 inch, while the head at this height is already top margin (and thats with the Fan rotating pushing off the hot air..

It will be fine when they grow taller just keep moving the light up. thats one thing with cfls is you always gotta adjust the light height. on a daily basis sometimes 2-3 times a day. But with yours since they've stretched so far already make them babies grow right up to the light each time before moving it. This make make them bush out instead of going skyward at a rapid rate. Just don't let them get right into the light I would say as long as you have a fan at canopy level move it up once they get within an inch. Top leaves might roll at the margin but that will be from the heat which we can correct once they get bushier. If this dont get them on track I got a back up plan for ya. I been thinking about this for a few hours. We'll go ahead and lst them till we have a coil of the stalk at ground level then let em go skyward and bury the coil which should stimulate more root growth. We got this bro.

hitthisshit said:

It's going to be so much bs to get them stems to thicken up and having to fight to keep em up straight and not to mention the serious problem that will come with the weight of buds in flowering

Click to expand...

I need to clarify this point: the purpose of these 2 plants is NOT to flower them, but to clone them into more things
So they wont be having to deal with the weight of the buds

How does that affect our 'save the plants' plan?

I have one more question:
The plant which doesnt seem to develop in the pictures (third one), has it's stem covered with white round spots. What does this mean? What should I do?

Two days have now passed since the last adjustments suggested, but very little change
You can also clearly see the white spots on the third stem.

I am again fearing something is wrong - what could we do? I was thinking, maybe over time the PH of the water inside the rockwool has changed upwards, and it is now harder for the plants to take what they need? I can only measure ph of the water, not rockwool..

What are the suggestions?

The 2 look good. The 3rd I doubt makes it. I would try to pop the seed coat off very gently. If you get it off without killing it I think it has a small chance to live.
Good luck

Smucker G said:

The 2 look good. The 3rd I doubt makes it. I would try to pop the seed coat off very gently. If you get it off without killing it I think it has a small chance to live.
Good luck

Click to expand...

Thanks! How far away do you think the 2 are, from cloning lets say, 20 plants out of them?

Gidon said:

Thanks! How far away do you think the 2 are, from cloning lets say, 20 plants out of them?

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I would say weeks...If they recover and take off, maybe 6-8 weeks.
I can not see the white spot your talking about, but if that stem spent anytime laying on the rock wool, it is possible it started to send out roots.
Tomatoes will do that when a branch bends and contacts the moist ground.

Just dropping by to check in. I Agree. As far as seeing improvements it will take much longer than 2 days. lol I'd give it a couple weeks for sure. They were stretched out pretty bad. If you ph your water you should be fine as far as that goes. Rockwool shouldn't affect it much. They will come around, just takes time. And since you are not going to flower them it won't matter much really. We'll still need a good healthy stalk.

I agree with DH. 8 weeks if all goes well. Keep postin pics.