Questions on First Grow, Ebb and Flow, Sea of Green

This will be my first time growing and I want to ask some questions and get some advice on my setup. If this is the wrong sub-forum to post in, I apologize.

I will be using a 4ft x 4ft ebb and flow table, with a 1000w HPS light, and (hopefully) CO2. My initial thought was to do four plants per square foot, but I believe that will quickly get too crowded. So maybe do one plant per square foot for SOG?

For nutrients, I'll be using General Hydroponics Floravova with the Lucas Method (G-M-B=0-8-16). Anyone have luck with the Lucas Method? I'm starting with clones, so one to two weeks veg and the rest flower. Or maybe no veg and all flower, given the space.

For growing medium, I'm thinking 6in net pots with clay balls or river rocks, maybe a combination of both? I don't want to use anything organic like coco coir.

I can get a 50 gal reverse osmosis system for around $80. Is that too cheap? Is a ro system something I should invest more money into?

For CO2, I was thinking chunks of dry ice in a styrofoam cooler above the lights. I'll have the grow room sealed with Panda Film and duct tape. There will be a vortex fan attached to a charcoal can for the output air, and a vortex fan attached to a hepa filter for the room's intake air. Will the circulation invalidate any CO2 I'm trying to use? The grow room will have two ebb and flow tables with a 1000w HPS each, and a four to six bio bucket set up (but that's neither here nor there). Will I need to make an airlock with this setup, or will a flap door be adequate. Is there any danger of my suffocation while in the room?

I'll be doing one strain per table. I think they need to be indica types to be bushy and grow large colas. What strains should I use?

With one plant per square foot, I was hoping for two to three ounces dry per plant. With 16 plants per table, that's two to three pounds per table. Could I do an overall better yield per table with four plants per square foot? I'm going for sea of green with one large cola per plant.

How does my setup look? Anything I should change? I'm aiming for quick cycle, high yield. Thanks.

Tomballisto said:

For nutrients, I'll be using General Hydroponics Floravova with the Lucas Method (G-M-B=0-8-16). Anyone have luck with the Lucas Method? I'm starting with clones, so one to two weeks veg and the rest flower. Or maybe no veg and all flower, given the space.

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If I had to guess, lucas formula would probably be the most popular nutrient method. So yeah lots of people have luck with it. If I were to do that, I would just get gh micro and bloom. Flora nova is a pain to work with.

For growing medium, I'm thinking 6in net pots with clay balls or river rocks, maybe a combination of both?

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I'd just use the clay balls, although never used river rock.....

I can get a 50 gal reverse osmosis system for around $80. Is that too cheap? Is a ro system something I should invest more money into?

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No. No. You might not need one. What's your waters ppm? Is it chlorinated? Do you want to run a sterile res?

For CO2, I was thinking chunks of dry ice in a styrofoam cooler above the lights.

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Skip that dry ice method all together. Later on if you want to get a co2 gen, thats up to you.

There will be a vortex fan attached to a charcoal can for the output air, and a vortex fan attached to a hepa filter for the room's intake air.

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I'ved used hepa filters in the past. They require a lot of cfm to clean. Now I just use passive intake with furnace filters.

I'll be doing one strain per table.

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This is a good thing.

With one plant per square foot, I was hoping for two to three ounces dry per plant. With 16 plants per table, that's two to three pounds per table.

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Three isn't going to happen. If you get half that your first time, your doing good.

Could I do an overall better yield per table with four plants per square foot?

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No.

- Jiji

jijiandfarmgang said:

Flora nova is a pain to work with.

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Why is it a pain? it seems to be one of the more popular brands.

jijiandfarmgang said:

No. No. You might not need one. What's your waters ppm? Is it chlorinated? Do you want to run a sterile res?

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I have well water, I don't know the ppm yet (still need to buy various meters). I do want to run a sterile reservoir. The grow room will be sealed, and I will wear a jumpsuit and gloves. I want to keep out mold/mildew and pests.

jijiandfarmgang said:

Skip that dry ice method all together. Later on if you want to get a co2 gen, thats up to you.

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May I ask why I should skip that method? It's a lot cheaper than a CO2 generator or emitter, and the dry ice has the benefit of cooling. Plus, CO2 should dramatically increase yield, correct?

Flora Nova is extremely thick. You have to shake the hell out of it. If you get it on anything it stains, and your res and roots turn brown. But it does work fine.

I think wearing a jumpsuit is going overboard, but cleanliness is important. Don't spill any water, and keep your humidity in check, and you wont have mold or mildew problems.

Do you have a water softener? What's your pressure switch set at 30/50, 40/60?

You should skip on CO2 because its your first grow. Also, I can't imagine how you would properly regulate dry ice.

Doe's CO2 dramatically increase yield? I'll probably get flamed for this.......but no (at least under most growers circumstances.)

Now two plants in a perfect setting one with C02 properly regulated, and a non-CO2......I'm sure the CO2 would trump the other.

But most people don't have a perfect setting (whatever that may be). Or they are doing something wrong etc.

This is from memory so don't quote me on this, and I wish I could remember the name, but sometime in the late 90s over 100 growers filled out a questionnaire about all different aspects of there growing methods.

I think the main focus was on what created the highest yield. Anyways, they selected lighting (hps, flouro) light schedules, GPW, CO2, growing medium and a bunch of other parameters. When it was all said and done, they graphed the info out and made a bunch of statistics.

The only things that had an effect on yield that were statistically significant were, if you used HPS lighting, and if you used hydroponics. Everything else including CO2 really had no effect.

So I guess I'm not saying CO2 doesn't work, but the way most growers use it, it doesn't work for them.

- Jiji

Take all that advice. I don't think you will get more than a pound and a half per table on your first grow.

Leave the CO2 for now. First grow, I would just aim to keep my plants a healthy green till harvest.

2kw is alot of power for a first grow. Just saying.

Good Luck.

butterbudface said:

2kw is alot of power for a first grow. Just saying.

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What would you suggest for two 4x4 ebb and flow tables, 16 plants per table, sea of green setup? Maybe two 600w hps?

16 plants I would go with 2kw but I don't know your conditions, the thing is, if you fuck up your loosing allot. I suggest get one table with one 600w hps and grow 6 plants.

Try different stuff on all of the plants, top one, FIM one try one in soil, one in hydro.

Get used to all the different ways, and understand hydro. Don't listen to EVERYTHING people say on the internet, allot of the stuff is written by a person that only grew one plant and now his a pro. (defoliation, flushing and nutrients)

Your going to learn so much from this. How does seedlings react, how fast does the plants grow, after you get a feel for it then I would go buy a 2kw system and start doing something more commercial.

I would rethink your co2 system.. propane or bottles is the only way to go.

Floranova is good. even without a booster it works fine, just pour it into another large container to mix it up, why are your mixing lucas method with nova?

Strains.. I'll just go with what I know.. AK47 by serious seeds, indica, short.. I'm more partial to Aurora Indica by Nirvana.. super easy to grow, nice yield.

Test your water before dumping money into RO. I've notice PH problems of being too low directly related to RO water, its nice to have nice clean water to work with tho' . I dont use RO, and I have the benefit of having chloramines and calcium in my water..

Keep your medium consistent, and you dont know what kind of pathogen or contamination you could pick up from using river rocks. I guess it could work, I would clean them well before use.

butterbudface said:

Try different stuff on all of the plants, top one, FIM one try one in soil, one in hydro.

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No way.. I dont agree with somebody doing a soil and hydro together for a first time grow. Its a pain. Im doing this and its a hassle.

Whats the point of doing soil if you're not going to go full organic?. That takes more room away from the grow, soil storage, different pots, watering cans.. PH meter for soil. I gotta store my organic soil mix outside.

Once you start messing around with soil youre that much more likely to get bugs. The OP has no pest management plan.

Tomballisto said:

What would you suggest for two 4x4 ebb and flow tables, 16 plants per table, sea of green setup? Maybe two 600w hps?

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600's are fine, what you could do is buy (1) solis tech 1kw ballast, and use the splitter for the 2 tables. (you can run MH's or HPS's) If thats not enough for you buy another 1kw.

I'm laying out a few 4x4 tables and I think I got a few more than you I was using the 3.3 liter pots (I think). Im using a 2 week veg this time, the 1 week veg for me was kinda short, only 16-18 inch plants. I need them a little bit bigger, but I wasn't running co2. This round I'll fire up the burner..

I agree hydro for me is allot less work and easier. What I am trying to say is try different methods and use the first grow as a learning curve. Before moving to a larger setup.

butterbudface said:

I agree hydro for me is allot less work and easier. What I am trying to say is try different methods and use the first grow as a learning curve. Before moving to a larger setup.

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I'll be doing two tables and (maybe) a few bio buckets. This will be my full-time job, and I'm sleeping next to the grow room, so I can devote all my time and effort to it. Keep an eye on things, catch problems quickly. I think ebb and flow SOG would be the easiest method, especially for me. I have friends that grow, not using my methods, but they're offering good advice and guidance.

I decided to ditch the CO2 for now. I've read that it increases yields 10% - 30%, but only in a perfectly controlled environment. I'll wait until I have a few harvests under my belt to try it.

Will 500w for each table, split from the 1000w ballast, be enough for SOG?

My pest/mold management plan is to not get them. I'll be growing in a sealed environment, wearing clean jumpsuit, using ro'd water, and I'll be monitoring humidity and temperature. I'm sure these methods aren't foolproof, but they're probably more than what most amateur growers are doing. If something bad pops up, I'll treat it with whatever the consensus says to do.

Thanks everyone, the advice is invaluable.

Tomballisto said:

I decided to ditch the CO2 for now. I've read that it increases yields 10% - 30%, but only in a perfectly controlled environment. I'll wait until I have a few harvests under my belt to try it.

Will 500w for each table, split from the 1000w ballast, be enough for SOG?

My pest/mold management plan is to not get them. I'll be growing in a sealed environment, wearing clean jumpsuit, using ro'd water, and I'll be monitoring humidity and temperature. I'm sure these methods aren't foolproof, but they're probably more than what most amateur growers are doing. If something bad pops up, I'll treat it with whatever the consensus says to do.

Thanks everyone, the advice is invaluable.

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Naw.. even just manually calculating the co2 levels its easy to beat 1gpw. It might be a little much for sog.
if you can use lots of fresh air, you're better off, the added cost, heat, and humidity of a propane burner is kinda a pain.. I'll use it if my air circulation is low or i'm going sealed, and it kinda helps with temps, it keeps my electric heat costs low at night, the pilot running is around 1k btu.

The solis tech ballast can be overdriven to 1040 so 520 per table. I have white poly everywhere and I have the lights overlap a bit running few bare bulb cheapy batwings reflectors so I can utilize indirect light. Really I prefer 1kw per 4x4, mainly for penetration reasons. Oddly enough heat is a problem for me now thats why I've lowered my wattage. I think its better tho' 1k's have a bit of a hotspot you kinda have to deal with, 600's aint so bad.

Clean suits arent necessary, Quarantine your clones, use filters on your intakes, sweep and vacuum your greenhouse, mold resistance is a genetic trait.. Strong plants are healthy plants. Keep your environment proper and you wont have problems. I think my greenhouse is clean suit worthy, new poly on the walls and ceeling, new subfloor, So clean you could eat off of it. If your greenhouse isnt that clean, then whats the point of wearing a clean suit.

I think the only time to wear a coverall or suit is to keep the smell off of you, its pretty bad.. I only touched the plants and after awhile my car reeked of buds. The smell got into my clothes, on my hands.. If I got pulled over I had a good chance of getting searched.

woah.. sorry to ramble.. kinda medicated

PetFlora said:

$80 for an RO lol

My pre and post filters cost more than that

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My 1 micron prefilters cost about $1.36 each. No carbon pre filter (well water). No post filter.

- Jiji

butterbudface said:

16 plants I would go with 2kw but I don't know your conditions, the thing is, if you fuck up your loosing allot. I suggest get one table with one 600w hps and grow 6 plants.

Try different stuff on all of the plants, top one, FIM one try one in soil, one in hydro.

Get used to all the different ways, and understand hydro. Don't listen to EVERYTHING people say on the internet, allot of the stuff is written by a person that only grew one plant and now his a pro. (defoliation, flushing and nutrients)

Your going to learn so much from this. How does seedlings react, how fast does the plants grow, after you get a feel for it then I would go buy a 2kw system and start doing something more commercial.

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This is awesome advice! I am currently 4 months into my first grow (almost finished!) and I took a similar approach. I have 12 plants. I topped 3, FIM'd 3 and super cropped 3. The last three I let grow naturally. I LST'd one of each. It gave me a lot of insight on what works best for my area and I'm already planning different experiments for my next grow. Nothing better then educating yourself with experience. I also study the shit out of these forums. Like butterbudface said, there's a lot of opinions that probably shouldn't be taken seriously. The more you read the more you'll learn to weed out the bullshit. Good luck man!

As far as your setup, I agree with most the posts here. I'm a newbie myself, but the setup sounds pretty legit. However, Co2 isn't worth the investment until you get the rest down. Maximize lighting and get your enviornment under control before you worry about Co2. As far as starting with two 1k watts, that's exactly what I started with. It'll definitely be a challenge dealing with temps and all but the reason I started big is because I knew I wanted to go big. I didn't want to buy two 400w lights just to get through a grow and replace them with bigger light. It may be a good idea to just do one table and one light to see how it goes first.

WOW !! hope you are not working ; sounds like you are going to devote all your time in growing concerning what you want to do. Try to Keep It Simple and add as time goes on, very hard to do all at once which opens the door up for mistakes. Slow down - I know it's hard to PEACE!

just wanna pop in to second the post about flora nova being a pain to work with. The big jugs actually come with a drill bit paint stirrer cuz the shit is so thick and nearly impossible to get uniformly mixed. It also leaves all kinds of fun stuff in the rez when it comes to cleaning. Not just turning roots brown which can hide potential root disease but I always got a brown film on the plastic rez from the stuff. I also had crystals form in the bottom of the jugs throwing off ratios of nutrients big time. I now use nutrient salts that leave roots white and the rez clear enough to see what the hell is going on in there lol.

i think 1ks are perfect for 4 foot trays, this is what I use with great success, Just need to invest in a big reflector to get the light spread to the whole tray. I use HTG's big kahuna but the raptor will do the job as well. I love how you can adjust how far up into the reflector the bulb will sit in the big kahuna allowing more or less of a light spread. Fair warning the reflector is heavy lol