Quick Help with multiple deficiency problems in veg before it gets out of hand??

frettfreak · Dec 8, 2011

This is my first time posting so go easy on me!

I have researched to DEATH and I think I just have WAY TOO MANY scenarios running through my head. Hopefully, I can narrow it down in here with some help of the masters!

Anyway, I am have a slight problem with these girls and want to correct before it gets out of hand. I will list the setup first so you know what I am working with, then my problems and pics. Please let me know what other info you need.

Setup and plant info:

girls are 17 days into veg
growing in 6x6 rockwool
Using GH Flora 3 part @50% strength (ppm has been 750 900)
Using RO water (comes out at 12ppm) (adding 5ml /g calmag+)
Growing under 1000w MH (quantum ballast) 4' off canopy (just moved down from 4.5')
Have good source of fresh air
Day temp: 72-75f
night temp: 66-68f
Humidity: 55-60
Have 1 fan blowing above the canopy but below the light (tops of girls)
PH 5.7 going in (run-off is 6.0 6.2 higher than I want I think)
Solution temp: 18 20c (65-68f)

PROBLEMS I AM SEEING

As I said, these are pretty slight right now but I want to fix them early.

New growth is pale and the veins are lighter than in between. some appear to be marbled with lighter streak of green.
Newer growth is "wrinkled" and just doesnt look right
There are a few that spots of leaf are just gone (no pest.. had some spider mites that came over on the clones, but they have been eradicated )
older leaves are REALLY dark (usually from too much nitrogen... flushed last week)a few leaves are starting to twist or bend

I am sure there is something else, but you can see in the pics, its just weird.

Everything was thoroughly flushed last week (but the new growth just started doing this). When I look at other threads with pics, it seems like I have a couple different deficiencies which is just crazy to me but I suppose possible. I have come to the conclusions that I have nitrogen toxicity, magnesium deficiency, maybe a calcium deficiency, and well.. you see my point... I am SOOO CONFUSED! Info overload :wall:

I can tell you EXACTLY what I fed my plants, when I fed them, and all details about that particular solution mix (ph, ppm, temp), so let me know if you need this info. (i am a little OCD so i have lots of details)

The pics i am posting with this were taken yesterday, however the problem is a little worse today. the new growth is kinda wrinkled and even more "marbled" with lighter color.

Any help or comments would be much appreciated! Thanks!

*BUDS · Dec 8, 2011

Cant see your pics but here is what to do. 1 get some H2O2 (17.5,35 or 50% grade) use it at 100:1(50% gr)every 4 days. 2-stop overwatering bro as this is the cause of the shithouse new growth, dont flood as much. Is the medium rw only?? this is why the roots are starving for oxygen.

frettfreak · Dec 8, 2011

THANK YOU for the quick response! I really appreciate it! if you click on the pics you cant see them? Hmmm.. i will try to re upload maybe?? If i click on them i can see them but maybe because its on my computer??

Anyway, yes, right now they are in 6x6 rock-wool only. When i move to flower, i re-pot in 5 gal buckets with the rock-wool croutons.

I have some mad farmer 35% h202 (100 to 1??? so 100ml per gal??? that doesnt sound right.. is my math wrong there?). i have been watering every other day, but that was only because they felt lite and i didnt want them to get too dry??

Also i should have mentioned that i am using drain to waste and top feeding if that makes a difference.

Now, since i just watered yesterday, should i water again tonight to get the H202 to them?

*BUDS · Dec 9, 2011

Bbro i think there is something nasty in the res causing root browning and the ugly/pale new growth ,get the H2O2 asap.

*BUDS · Dec 9, 2011

frettfreak said:
THANK YOU for the quick response! I really appreciate it! if you click on the pics you cant see them? Hmmm.. i will try to re upload maybe?? If i click on them i can see them but maybe because its on my computer??

Anyway, yes, right now they are in 6x6 rock-wool only. When i move to flower, i re-pot in 5 gal buckets with the rock-wool croutons.

I have some mad farmer 35% h202 (100 to 1??? so 100ml per gal??? that doesnt sound right.. is my math wrong there?). i have been watering every other day, but that was only because they felt lite and i didnt want them to get too dry??

Also i should have mentioned that i am using drain to waste and top feeding if that makes a difference.

Now, since i just watered yesterday,

should i water again tonight to get the H202 to them

Click to expand...

?

yes do it soon, the 35% is added at 80:1,
whether its hand watering or flood and drain. Also i dont think your overwatering now ive seen the pics.

tenthirty · Dec 9, 2011

6 mils per gallon in hydro is the normal dose and 10 times that much to sterilize. This is from Al.B.Fuct sticky in hydro section.

frettfreak · Dec 9, 2011

Wheew... i really didnt think it was over watering, but there is always something to learn.

So, should i water with full nutes and h202 or do a flush with just RO water, h202, and maybe some CalMag?

crackerblack · Dec 9, 2011

frettfreak said:
this is my first time posting so go easy on me! i have researched to death and i think i just have way too many scenarios running through my head. Hopefully, i can narrow it down in here with some help of the masters!

Anyway, i am have a slight problem with these girls and want to correct before it gets out of hand. I will list the setup first so you know what i am working with, then my problems and pics. Please let me know what other info you need.

setup and plant info:

girls are 17 days into veg

growing in 6x6 rockwool

using gh flora 3 part @50% strength (ppm has been 750 – 900)

using ro water (comes out at 12ppm) (adding 5ml /g calmag+)

growing under 1000w mh (quantum ballast) 4' off canopy (just moved down from 4.5')

have good source of fresh air

day temp: 72-75f

night temp: 66-68f

humidity: 55-60

have 1 fan blowing above the canopy but below the light (tops of girls)

ph 5.7 going in (run-off is 6.0 – 6.2 higher than i want i think)

solution temp: 18 – 20c (65-68f)

problems i am seeing

as i said, these are pretty slight right now but i want to fix them early.

new growth is pale and the veins are lighter than in between. Some appear to be “marbled” with lighter streak of green.

newer growth is "wrinkled" and just doesnt look right

there are a few that spots of leaf are just gone (no pest.. Had some spider mites that came over on the clones, but they have been eradicated )

older leaves are really dark (usually from too much nitrogen... Flushed last week)a few leaves are starting to twist or bend

i am sure there is something else, but you can see in the pics, its just weird.

Everything was thoroughly flushed last week (but the new growth just started doing this). When i look at other threads with pics, it seems like i have a couple different deficiencies which is just crazy to me but i suppose possible. I have come to the conclusions that i have nitrogen toxicity, magnesium deficiency, maybe a calcium deficiency, and well.. You see my point... I am sooo confused! Info overload

I can tell you exactly what i fed my plants, when i fed them, and all details about that particular solution mix (ph, ppm, temp), so let me know if you need this info. (i am a little ocd so i have lots of details)

the pics i am posting with this were taken yesterday, however the problem is a little worse today. The new growth is kinda wrinkled and even more "marbled" with lighter color.

Any help or comments would be much appreciated! Thanks!

if it is affecting the whole plant then it is nute burn if it started on the bottom and worked its way up it is not getting enough nutes!!! Feed it!!! What ever stuff your using should have all the elements in it that your plants need its just not getting enough of them. Why are you flushing?? You should only flush as a last resort when you have nute burn!! You are flusing you nutes out and flooding your plants at the same time.

frettfreak · Dec 9, 2011

crackerblack said:
if it is affecting the whole plant then it is nute burn if it started on the bottom and worked its way up it is not getting enough nutes!!! Feed it!!! What ever stuff your using should have all the elements in it that your plants need its just not getting enough of them. Why are you flushing?? You should only flush as a last resort when you have nute burn!! You are flusing you nutes out and flooding your plants at the same time.

??? i am confused. There isnt any 1 thing that is affecting all the girls except for the new growth being f'd up as you see in the pics. to me it seems like it is multiple deficiencies. Nothing started at the bottom and worked its way up. Also, my PPMs are not THAT low (week 1 was around 500, week 2 around 700 and week 3 around 850)

Please dont take this as me saying your wrong or trying to argue, cause thats not it at ALL. Just confused by your post.

MrGhettoGrower · Dec 9, 2011

I'm thinking it's more over watering issues cause all the algae on yo cubes.
This could be from lack of air movement or da couple flushes you did, da algae
is harmless but if da blocks are too wet chances the roots are too wet too~

crackerblack · Dec 9, 2011

frettfreak said:
??? i am confused. There isnt any 1 thing that is affecting all the girls except for the new growth being f'd up as you see in the pics. to me it seems like it is multiple deficiencies. Nothing started at the bottom and worked its way up. Also, my PPMs are not THAT low (week 1 was around 500, week 2 around 700 and week 3 around 850)

Please dont take this as me saying your wrong or trying to argue, cause thats not it at ALL. Just confused by your post.

your ppm is low. Should be between 1100- 1330. Feed them. Don't flush them and use less water! You should see a change in a couple of days.

frettfreak · Dec 9, 2011

crackerblack said:
your ppm is low. Should be between 1100- 1330. Feed them. Don't flush them and use less water! You should see a change in a couple of days.

I was thinking about this more (and maybe this is what you were saying, i just didnt understand :bigjoint:

) but since there isnt any nute burn, from what i can see or know, and i am seeing multiple deficiencies, maybe your right and they just need more food! and some H202 cause it sure wont hurt!

Now just got to decide to let them dry out a little more before i feed again, or give them a little taste with some higher ppm nutes and then let them dry a bit.

Yeah, the algae on the cubes is because i dont think i soaked the rockwool long enough to get the lime out, which was causing HIGH ph and leaf margins to curl up so i really flushed them and that's when i started seeing the algae.

laserbrn · Dec 9, 2011

Overfed, plain and simple. At this size you should be watering once every other day at most in a 6x6 rockwool cube. I would dump the reservoir one more time (always a good start when things go to shit, so good move there). Add PLAIN RO Water with 0 PPM. Are you using a flood table to water the cubes or hand watering?

Regardless, if you want these plants to get back on track you need to relieve them of these toxicities, it's multiple. Overfeeding has actually caused a little burn, but more importantly lockouts of some nutrients and toxicities of others.

Take the plants out, flush them through with as much phed water as you can stand. I mean really soak them through, run plenty of fresh water through them, they will love you for it. Setup a new reservoir with just plain phed water (ph 6.0). Do not water the plants again for at least 3 days. Leave them alone and you'll JUST start seeing new growth starting to come through. The plants won't start recovering until the cube starts to dry out, so don't rush to water them. Those rockwool cubes will feel like AIR when they are dry. I mean, really, really light, if they get like that, go ahead and water again with phed water.

After 7 days, go ahead and put in 50ppm of nutrients and set your watering to 15 minutes once per day.

Every couple of days, bump the nutrients by 50ppm. Please post updates here.

After you handwater the cubes BTW you'll be open to algae on the tops, so get some rockwool covers or just be prepared to transplant and bury them to get them out of the light. As far as h2o2, it's always a good thing to have in the res, but I don't believe that's where your problem lies. Don't put it in for this "clean out". Don't need another variable and need to worry about concentrations.

frettfreak · Dec 9, 2011

laserbrn said:
Overfed, plain and simple. At this size you should be watering once every other day at most in a 6x6 rockwool cube. I would dump the reservoir one more time (always a good start when things go to shit, so good move there). Add PLAIN RO Water with 0 PPM. Are you using a flood table to water the cubes or hand watering?

Regardless, if you want these plants to get back on track you need to relieve them of these toxicities, it's multiple. Overfeeding has actually caused a little burn, but more importantly lockouts of some nutrients and toxicities of others.

Take the plants out, flush them through with as much phed water as you can stand. I mean really soak them through, run plenty of fresh water through them, they will love you for it. Setup a new reservoir with just plain phed water (ph 6.0). Do not water the plants again for at least 3 days. Leave them alone and you'll JUST start seeing new growth starting to come through. The plants won't start recovering until the cube starts to dry out, so don't rush to water them. Those rockwool cubes will feel like AIR when they are dry. I mean, really, really light, if they get like that, go ahead and water again with phed water.

After 7 days, go ahead and put in 50ppm of nutrients and set your watering to 15 minutes once per day.

Every couple of days, bump the nutrients by 50ppm. Please post updates here.

After you handwater the cubes BTW you'll be open to algae on the tops, so get some rockwool covers or just be prepared to transplant and bury them to get them out of the light. As far as h2o2, it's always a good thing to have in the res, but I don't believe that's where your problem lies. Don't put it in for this "clean out". Don't need another variable and need to worry about concentrations.

Thanks!!! So yes, I am top feeding and hand watering already so that will be easy. Just to be clear, my res is fresh every time (drain to waste), and cleaned once a week. the only thing that ever sits in the res (and at MOST its for 24 hours) is plain RO water, no nutes.

So i shouldnt even add any cal-mag when i am flushing these ladies per your instructions correct?

There is already algae on the tops from when i flushed a couple weeks ago (which usually happens) but they always get fully buried when i move to my 5 gal buckets and rockwool croutons.

One more question is since my RO only does so much water a day (my res is full now, but will be dumping that tonight) should i just use tap water (about 200ppm)?

laserbrn · Dec 9, 2011

No, use the RO water. You don't have that many plants so it should be able to create more than enough water. My little tiny RO unit can filter 5 gallons of water in 45 minutes. Don't put in Cal Mag, don't put in anything. Not for the initial flush through, just plain PHed water. After that you can add cal mag at the same proportion that you add nutes.

Doing this move is like putting your plants in the hospital. They've had some serious GI problems from overeating and they need to take it easy. For 24 hours it's just plain clear liquids, ya know, that kind of thing. Reintroduce food slowly, nice and bland and then resume normal eating over time. So start out with just plain water, then move on to water with a little cal mag, then a little cal mag and a little grow and micro, but slow, slow, slow during the recovery. They have plenty of nutrients as of right now and just need some plain ol' phed water.

frettfreak · Dec 9, 2011

laserbrn said:
Doing this move is like putting your plants in the hospital. They've had some serious GI problems from overeating and they need to take it easy. For 24 hours it's just plain clear liquids, ya know, that kind of thing. Reintroduce food slowly, nice and bland and then resume normal eating over time. So start out with just plain water, then move on to water with a little cal mag, then a little cal mag and a little grow and micro, but slow, slow, slow during the recovery. They have plenty of nutrients as of right now and just need some plain ol' phed water.

LOVE the analogy!! Thats awesome! Will do all that tonight. post up tomorrow with an update and we can g from there! Thanks again!! Super appreciate the help!

frettfreak · Dec 10, 2011

Watered last night with about 2.5 gal per cube. water was 11 ppm (that's as low as it gets with my water). had to do it in 3 rounds one right after the other. After the first one, i measured the runoff and my ph was WAY high again (had this happen before for no reason???). Ph going in was 5.9/6.0 (meter bounced back and forth a little) and it came out at 6.8!!! Think that means my root zone was somewhere in the neighborhood of 7.5ph (yeah um.. could cause some deficiencies ya think?). after it was all said and done, final run off after the 2.5g each was 6.1- 6.2 average.

Today they arent looking a whole lot better at this point, but usually they bounce back after they sleep for a bit (lights out at 11pm, back on at 5pm)... will update after that with some pics.

frettfreak · Dec 10, 2011

Man, i am going to follow your advice and not do anything to them for a few days, but it feels weird just leaving them with no nutes for 3 days!! lol.. AHHHHH... hahaha but i get it. they need to really get over the problem before they start taking in anything.

laserbrn · Dec 10, 2011

Ah, they are small, they will be just fine. All that dark green indicates they have an abundance of nitrogen. Those lower leaves are SOOOOOOO dark I'm not worried about going a few days without nutrients at all. They aren't going to just "bounce back, it's the new growth that will look right. It'll start growing in properly and have the proper coloration. I have every confidence that these plants will show you how little they need.

frettfreak · Dec 10, 2011

was thinking about this and wondering if i also should increase the size of my tray to spread them out which will give them more breathing room and the ability to dry better?? Right now there is only about 2 inches between my rows, but going down the rows, the cubes are all touching. (if that doesnt make sense, i can post a pic)

Quick Help with multiple deficiency problems in veg before it gets out of hand??

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