Quick 'Yes' or 'No' or 'Go away' question

Patriot420

Member
A friend asked me to find the answer, I cant, so Im asking you so I dont look like a dumbass. :wall:

Would a 7-Band 240w LED Grow Light be sufficient for a 48'' by 24'' grow tent with a small amount of plants in it? (4-6) I am sorry if you get this damn question every other day, but google and the search function here both left me empty handed.
 

jcmjrt

Well-Known Member
LEDs don't project light very well off to the sides (rather similar to T5s, if you've done that). I'd guess that your 240W LED is much smaller than 48" X 24" (the stated footprint of your grow) so given no further information, I'd say that it would NOT flower well...so 'No'

Now if you had some further info about the space, grow and budget, we might be able to recommend something that would work.
 

Patriot420

Member
Now if you had some further info about the space, grow and budget, we might be able to recommend something that would work.
Alright, 2ft x 4ft grow tent for growing and flowering (he'll be growing autos). And he doesnt want to spend more than a few hundred on lighting. I personally recommended a 400w HPS/MH set up, but he says that the electricity bill would skyrocket too much and that HPS/MH aren't as effective as an LED setup, while I disagree, I'm far from an expert on the subject..
 

Endur0xX

Well-Known Member
imo, you have the right wattage for a successful grow for that space, however, it would have to be 240 watts at the plug. When using less than 40 watt per sq.ft. with leds, it's a lot better to use multiple light source.

The amount of plants really depend on the veg time, to get an oz per sq . ft . would be a great challenge and it could be done no veg time and 8 plants or long veg time and 1 plant.
 

Endur0xX

Well-Known Member
I have used combo HID / LEDs when I first got into LEDs and from looking back now, I dont think they were helping each other that much. I am set with LEDs now so I never plan to try LEDs + HIDs combo again.

I think if one had the time, great things can be done with LEDs with the DIY, the idea is to spread the light around the grow room... it might be some future winter project for me down the road but for now I want results and I am getting them.

Anyway, the idea would be to build a light that would be the grow room, like 3 watts every 6 inches and all around and maybe even vertical LEDs tube that would run from floor to ceiling with adjustable ceiling... haha. I am just rambling here I dont know if any of you follow me on this thought but I think this would be the way to grow amazing fat frosty buds using less than 40 watts per sq.ft.
 

SnakeByte

Active Member
The few things about LED that everyone can agree on are that the use the least energy, create the least heat, and are the most customizable of the lights that anyone has to choose from. Just not everyone likes to always learn something new when they can already EASILY rely on what they know.
 

Endur0xX

Well-Known Member
something a little more doable and realistic would be to make / order 50 x 20watts LEDs lights with suitable spectrum for flowering, then spread them around. I would make the setup so that I never have to move a thing, just let the plant grow to it all along. If one could achieve 2 gpw, that would be 4lbs with 1000w, thats right. It has been done with LEDs and I think this way would make it easier to reach.
 

Bumping Spheda

Well-Known Member
Easiest method would probably be HPS. I do like the idea of a number of 20W-100W LED chips strewn around the grow room. Sounds like fun.
 

Patriot420

Member
So the HID/LED is a no go? If there's only a 4ftx2ft tent to work with, and you had ~300$ to spend on lighting, how would you light it?
 

Bumping Spheda

Well-Known Member
Upfront, HPS is cheapest and easiest if you can deal with the heat.

LED's are cool, don't get me wrong, but (today) 1000Watt's of HID and 1000Watt's of LED produce about the same amount of heat (they're both about 20% efficient). The biggest difference as far as heat is concerned would be LED's don't tend to beam that heat into your canopy, it's directed towards the heat sink and radiates to the top of the grow room. Another concern is the efficiency of an LED driver vs an HID ballast (LED's win out). As for yield, if you achieve 1gpw with HID you're a good grower. If you achieve 1gpw with LED you're a good grower. Imho there isn't a huge difference, especially if you grow vertically with your HID lamp(s) as there's quite a big efficiency loss when using a reflector/hood. That being said, LED's with proper cooling will last a comically long time with relatively small loss of lumen output, whereas HID bulbs should be replaced every couple years, maybe sooner.

If I had $300 to spend on light I'd probably go with something similar to what Endur0xX suggested. I know a Chinese manufacturer and they can build custom spectrum LED chips. I'd really like to order a 100W chip with mostly Warm Whites (both 440nm and 460nm Blue dies) and some Deep Reds. Thermally couple that to a CPU cooler, wire it up to a driver and hang it in the tent. They're about $60 per 100W LED with 45mil dies, although shipping is high so it makes more sense to buy as many as possible per order. If you wanted 35mil dies it's about $30 per 100W LED chip, although the lumen output is obviously lower.
 

Patriot420

Member
Upfront, HPS is cheapest and easiest if you can deal with the heat.


If I had $300 to spend on light I'd probably go with something similar to what Endur0xX suggested. I know a Chinese manufacturer and they can build custom spectrum LED chips. I'd really like to order a 100W chip with mostly Warm Whites (both 440nm and 460nm Blue dies) and some Deep Reds. Thermally couple that to a CPU cooler, wire it up to a driver and hang it in the tent. They're about $60 per 100W LED with 45mil dies, although shipping is high so it makes more sense to buy as many as possible per order. If you wanted 35mil dies it's about $30 per 100W LED chip, although the lumen output is obviously lower.
Ya lost me on that one. I can build a computer just fine (on a custom build now) but when it comes to building/wiring anything else, you have to explain it to me like Im a 3 month old chimp.

I also dont feel as if 3-4 of those 100w boards would be enough? Would I hang 2 on top and put 2 on the sides or put all 4 up top or..?

I know how stupid I must sound, but this has piqued my curiosity like few things have.

Also, why wouldnt a couple LED strips help an HID light?
 

Bumping Spheda

Well-Known Member
Ya lost me on that one. I can build a computer just fine (on a custom build now) but when it comes to building/wiring anything else, you have to explain it to me like Im a 3 month old chimp.
No problem. These "LED chips" are basically just a bunch of LED diodes wired up in series. 100W chips have one hundred, 1Watt diodes in a 10 x 10 square. They have a negative terminal and a positive terminal. The LED driver has two input wires (alternating current from your wall, so neither wire has polarity) which you hook up to, say, and extension cord so you can plug it into a wall. The two output wires are either Red (+) or Black (-) which you then solder to the corresponding tab on the chip. It's as easy as that.

The size of the dies (45 or 35mil) determines the quality of the chip. The larger dies produce more light per Watt which is why they are almost twice the cost.

I said I wanted mostly a Warm White spectrum and then started talking about Blue diodes. That's my bad. White LED's can be made using Blue diodes that have a phosphor lens over them. The phosphor is excited by the Blue light as it passes through it and then emits White light. These Warm White LED's will have a primary peak in the Amber/Red spectrum (depending on the phosphor blend that is used) and a secondary peak at the wavelength of the Blue diode that was used (some of the Blue passes through the lens). When I say "peak," I just mean it produces high amounts of light at those two specific wavelengths (think of the vertex of an upside down parabola, or the top of a bell-shaped curve). Because plants would like a variety of colors to pick and choose from I asked the manufacturer to use two different wavelengths of Blue. This slightly stretches the spectral distribution peaks of the chip which makes it more photosynthetically friendly.

I also dont feel as if 3-4 of those 100w boards would be enough? Would I hang 2 on top and put 2 on the sides or put all 4 up top or..?
3-4 of these would be 300-400Watts! That sounds like plenty of light to me for your friend's grow space. As for placement, the heat sinks will be rather large. You could technically make a couple as side-lighting, that's your prerogative, however this does have its own design obstacles to overcome. Personally, I would make them all with the intention of hanging them directly over the canopy. Also, given we're hypothetically using White LED's we should be able to keep the chips pretty close to our canopy w/o too much (maybe any) stress on the plants. This allows for a very customizable coverage over the canopy. Think of these as 100W flash lights that you can point at specific buds sites, or bud site clusters. Don't be fooled, though, they should have pretty good coverage also. I believe the ones I'm looking at have a 120 degree viewing angle.
I know how stupid I must sound, but this has piqued my curiosity like few things have.
Not at all. I was where you are not long ago. And others are walking through the door right now. Pretty soon you'll be introducing people.

Also, why wouldnt a couple LED strips help an HID light?
Endur0xX was talking about his personal experience. I can't speak for him, nor do I have any experience with HID + LED myself. However, I have read people rave about HID + LED supplements. LED's are great for veg. I think some Blue LED's could keep a plant from stretching too much after the 12/12 switch. HPS bulbs also don't have much output in the Red spectrum, so some LED supplements in the 630-660nm range could be beneficial in my mind. I don't know, really, I'm just speaking theoretically.

One thing I find especially interesting is the Sun's interaction with Earth's atmosphere. Our atmosphere causes photons of light to reflect and refract as they collide with airborne water molecules, dirt particles, pollution/contaminates, etc. As a result a lot of Blue gets reflected out. Ever wonder why the sky is Blue? At Sun up, however, light has to pass through a lot more air before it reaches your eye because of the angle. Even more Blue light is reflected out/away. Red light is able to pass through more readily, however, due to its longer wavelength. Have you ever wondered why the Sunrise and Sunset is Orange/Red? Plants see this just as you do. In my mind, it would behoove a plant to learn/adapt a method in order to utilize this light. I don't believe the fact that plant absorption peaks being in the Red and Blue spectra are coincidence. By making good use of Red light it increases its own natural photo period, especially post equinox as the days get shorter and shorter. It makes perfect sense to me that Red light is as important as it seems to be. That being said, I do believe a comprehensive spectral distribution is important which is why I really like a lot of the Warm White LED's.


Sorry for the long winded rant, but you brought up HID + LED and this took me off on a tangent.
 

Bubbagineer

Well-Known Member
imo, you have the right wattage for a successful grow for that space, however, it would have to be 240 watts at the plug. When using less than 40 watt per sq.ft. with leds, it's a lot better to use multiple light source.

The amount of plants really depend on the veg time, to get an oz per sq . ft . would be a great challenge and it could be done no veg time and 8 plants or long veg time and 1 plant.
First thanks to everyone contributing to this thread as I am researching this light, actually picked one up today. I too plan on a 4x2x6.5 grow box. I wanted to pick up the 432w model (local store was sold out) but actually am glad that I didn't. I now plan to hang 2 of these lights. Should fit well with 6" spacing from sidewall to the edge of the lights and then a 2"gap between the lights at the middle and I think will give a wider footprint than the 432 plus it will have an extra 48 LED watts. You mention that you would need 240w at the plug for a 4x2 space. From my research, (80) 3w LEDs do not get you 240w at the plug as you point out, it will be significantly less due to mfr. not pushing to max rated levels.... correct? The question is what does this particular light actually pull. Has anyone put a meter on it? If not, I'll dig my multimeter out and try to remember how it works (I know that's kind of lame, but I did lousy in my EE classes and that was 20+ years ago). I did plug the light in. Seems like a well built piece of equipment. I made the mistake of plugging it in while it was in front of a mirror and I was looking in the mirrors direction.... Holy cow I'm still seeing spots.
 

Bumping Spheda

Well-Known Member
Assuming the 3W diode runs at ~3V, you'd have to run an entire Amp through them to get 3W, which you can do, but is in all likeliness the max load that the diode can handle. It won't live as long and it will be less efficient. I don't know any DIY'er who runs their diodes at max load, let alone a manufacturer, let alone a manufacturer with any sort of warranty.

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" Arthur C. Clarke
Ha! What isn't magic? Hell, I think blankets are magic, especially the soft fuzzy ones. Advanced enough technology for me, I guess. :eyesmoke: Science meets Mysticism, though? If that's what you're going for I like it.
 
Top