RDWC - nutrients uptake drops after 4 days

Have2

Well-Known Member
Setup: rdwc
Nuts: current culture
Nutrient schedule (4th week flo) : coco 2.5ml, A 6ml, B 6ml, Mid, 3ml / gallon

Auto top off for RO water and I inject nutrients each hour to keep it steady.

Right after I do a full flush, nutrient uptake is fast, they are hungry... After 4 days, uptake drops and ppm starts to raise slowly, I have to stop injection.

On flush, I do add a bit of epson salt and silica... But nothing on add-back.

Is it normal after only 4 days?? Would you add epson after 3 days?

I guess it's a nutrients imbalance that causes this but wondering what I should raise/do to keep the same feeding for more days.

Everything looks healthy, no deficiency.

Thanks! :)
 
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sativuuh

Member
What are your ppm's when mixed fresh (and what ppm scale) and what is it dropping to before rising? How's the ph?
 

Have2

Well-Known Member
What are your ppm's when mixed fresh (and what ppm scale) and what is it dropping to before rising? How's the ph?
Ppm when just mixed, 350-375. (Scale 500) Ph tends to rise... I start at ph 5.8 and let it go until 6.2-6.3 then drop to 5.8-5.9.

Ppm is not dropping because I inject nutrients each hour to get it steady (at the same rate I mixed the fresh reservoir). It will drop pretty fast if I don't inject. (Steady water level)

Went from 6.0 to 6.3 in 30 hours.

That brings me to another question about NPK ratio.... Ph is upping in system because of the N uptake... And it drops when K uptake happens...

If the ph still tends to rise, even in flowering, it means the plants are consuming more N than K... Are we getting it wrong to add more PK since the N seems to be the most consumed?
 

sativuuh

Member
Seems to me when the plants eat the ph floats up. I have a bluelab controller that holds that at 5.9. The ph only seems to drop when the water change is due and there is some nute lockout from all their feeding. They continue to just consume but if the ph drops it's time to change water.
What is your ppm at when it stops going down and starts rising? Normally that'd be overfeeding, maybe try with the A and B rolled back to 5ml/g and see how you go.
Are you injecting nutes right into the system? Have you thought about mixing the same/next weeks batch in your topoff and feeding like that with everything properly mixed vs trying to inject in and hope it dilutes midway thru the week?
 

Have2

Well-Known Member
Seems to me when the plants eat the ph floats up. I have a bluelab controller that holds that at 5.9. The ph only seems to drop when the water change is due and there is some nute lockout from all their feeding. They continue to just consume but if the ph drops it's time to change water.
What is your ppm at when it stops going down and starts rising? Normally that'd be overfeeding, maybe try with the A and B rolled back to 5ml/g and see how you go.
Are you injecting nutes right into the system? Have you thought about mixing the same/next weeks batch in your topoff and feeding like that with everything properly mixed vs trying to inject in and hope it dilutes midway thru the week?
I topoff using RO water (float valve) and I inject directly into the system (into the epi). Even current culture advertise an injection system to make things easier.

Never had issue going this route but had when using a topoff reservoir, was too hot and nutrients were going bad and no way to mix new batch everyday in topoff reservoir eheheh

I experience ph drop at the end of flowering 1-2 weeks before harvest. That told me that N is discarded and K is prioritized.

I think I'll cut back A and B a bit and see if a higher N vs PK ratio will help.

I'll try adding a little bit of epson salt also, just to make sure mg/sulfur aren't the missing key.
 

rkymtnman

Well-Known Member
i'm not familiar with the injection part but can't you program it to follow the curve of your plants? higher EC after flush and then lower after a few days.

i noticed the same thing if i did a flush: the first 24 to 36 hours they would eat like crazy and then taper off
 

Have2

Well-Known Member
i'm not familiar with the injection part but can't you program it to follow the curve of your plants? higher EC after flush and then lower after a few days.

i noticed the same thing if i did a flush: the first 24 to 36 hours they would eat like crazy and then taper off
That's what I do, changing the numbers when I notice it's rising a bit.

But I'm asking if it affects my yield if less uptake... Is it unbalanced, is it missing a part that cause it to eat less... like a bad ratio.

How often do you flush? I was usually doing a flush after 5 or 6 days... But need to investigate that NPK ratio/unbalanced thing...
 

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rkymtnman

Well-Known Member
But I'm asking if it affects my yield if less uptake
i would think(?) that having that short window when the ppms are rising would not be the plant running optimally. just a guess though.

i run drain to waste now. no need to flush anymore. they get a steady EC all grow with no need to worry about the correct NPK balance.
 

Have2

Well-Known Member
i would think(?) that having that short window when the ppms are rising would not be the plant running optimally. just a guess though.

i run drain to waste now. no need to flush anymore. they get a steady EC all grow with no need to worry about the correct NPK balance.
I hope some dwc/rdwc guys will chime in! :)

Really interested in what kind of behavior is going on with the plants.
 
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rkymtnman

Well-Known Member
I hope some dwc/rdwc guy will chime in! :)

Really interested in what kind of behavior is going on with the plants.
when i was doing rdwc i never really understood the post flush feeding frenzy. i just kinda knew what to expect after a few days and lowered my EC accordingly
 

Have2

Well-Known Member
when i was doing rdwc i never really understood the post flush feeding frenzy. i just kinda knew what to expect after a few days and lowered my EC accordingly
I lowered A/B a bit... Will add epson salt tomorrow and see what happens :)
 

sativuuh

Member
If you stop injecting into the system does it continue to feed the ppm down? Stuff seems better mixed when you start from RO thru the mixing vs adding to the system with already loaded nute mix. When you had it go bad in the top off with nutrients, how did you know it was bad? Did you have it constantly mixing? I figured that was important and have a small submerged aquarium pump with a riser and a 6 spout head that keeps it constantly mixing. Kinda nice having nutes in the top off since it has ppm to buffer, it feeds in at the ph you put that res to help steer ph in the system steady.
 

Have2

Well-Known Member
If you stop injecting into the system does it continue to feed the ppm down? Stuff seems better mixed when you start from RO thru the mixing vs adding to the system with already loaded nute mix. When you had it go bad in the top off with nutrients, how did you know it was bad? Did you have it constantly mixing? I figured that was important and have a small submerged aquarium pump with a riser and a 6 spout head that keeps it constantly mixing. Kinda nice having nutes in the top off since it has ppm to buffer, it feeds in at the ph you put that res to help steer ph in the system steady.
If I stop injecting, it drops but more slowly than first day after a flush.

As for the topoff, yeah I used this method, air pump + submerged pump but the reservoir temp is getting too hot and made weird stuff, like goo... I'll try to find the picture of it, it was disgusting lol

Injection is used worldwide by agricultural compagnies so I guess it's not supposed to be an issue to inject.

As for steering the ph, I have automated this with a script and homeassistant... :)
 

Have2

Well-Known Member
If you stop injecting into the system does it continue to feed the ppm down? Stuff seems better mixed when you start from RO thru the mixing vs adding to the system with already loaded nute mix. When you had it go bad in the top off with nutrients, how did you know it was bad? Did you have it constantly mixing? I figured that was important and have a small submerged aquarium pump with a riser and a 6 spout head that keeps it constantly mixing. Kinda nice having nutes in the top off since it has ppm to buffer, it feeds in at the ph you put that res to help steer ph in the system steady.
Halted injection. ppm raised 50ppm over the night cycle... I'll monitor how it goes after the epsom salt. In 2 days, I inject the same amount of nutrients (coco/a/b/mid) vs when I freshly mix a new reservoir... So that's maybe a clue... I add epsom when I mix a new batch... Maybe depleted after 2 days or miss a bit to achieve a full uptake.

I'll report later on! :)

ps, good thinking about injection vs premixed. I'll think about a new system to premix before injecting... CS only uses a venturi system... But even then, when I mix, I add coco directly into the reservoir, then A, not even diluted, into the reservoir and so on so.. a bit confusing as to why adding few ml each hours would cause this behaviour.
 
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sativuuh

Member
What ppm scale are you using? That must be 500 scale? Are you starting with RO? Maybe you need to up that calmag, been running 4ml thru late veg into w4f to account for starting water. I had some a swing early on where it seemed like they needed more.

I went along with this from CC's site:
Method 1 – Top-Off Reservoir: Using a top-off reservoir makes it easy to follow weekly feeding schedules. The top-off reservoir should have a similar nutrient concentration than what’s in your hydroponic system or the following weeks nutrient schedule. For best results pH and EC/ppm adjustments should be done through the top-off reservoir.

I've added in as they've been feeding super slow into the control res which dilutes pretty well enough. It does seem like after a adding more when the ppm's drop down low, that the ratios of what's left and what's in there and how it adds in is not perfect and it's more of a getby till a full strength flush. I mix a full system refill in the topoff which holds another 10 gallons leftover after a refill, drain the system, fill from topoff and then as the plants feed and drink it drinks in that weeks nute levels and drinks it pretty consistently. PPM's just continually drop as time passes. As long as the PH doesn't start to tank down I let it eat. When I add in calmag/A/B I don't think it all really goes in with the same ratios. Or why do we always do calmag into RO first thing and wait before adding A to let it bond in. If you add calmag to to a full nute mix after the fact, does it still mix in as bioavailable to the plants or does it get bound up to some other chemical which throws it off? Holds me back a bit from wanting to keep adding. I figure if it's always circulating, as long as the nutrients are in the water at all they'll be drinking em up as it goes down if it's at 700ppm or 450ppm since there is so much extra volume of water/nutes in the UC vs a static dwc bucket. I wish CC would write out more on that and ppm maintenance needs more clearly.

With the injectors and addin, does your controller script account for the injection of ferts and allow mix time before trying to make adjustments? I have to remember to turn my bluelab to monitor whenever I add so it doesn't get too excited before it's all fully mixed up.
I have the full strength nute mix in the top off, no airstone though, that does seem like it would lead to some gross since you are pumping outside air in volume thru it and whatever nastys are in the air ends up in there too. WIth just a small recirc with water shooting back down a little manifold it keeps it mixed and fresh but the topoff is pretty much all tight to air and contaminates. Also no warmth from the warm air pump air so it stays much cooler. Do you have a chiller? Could plumb in a wort chiller into the water return out of the chiller thru the top off if temps were really crazy in the room.
 

sativuuh

Member
Halted injection. ppm raised 50ppm over the night cycle... I'll monitor how it goes after the epsom salt. In 2 days, I inject the same amount of nutrients (coco/a/b/mid) vs when I freshly mix a new reservoir... So that's maybe a clue... I add epsom when I mix a new batch... Maybe depleted after 2 days or miss a bit to achieve a full uptake.

I'll report later on! :)
How's it been coming along?
 

Have2

Well-Known Member
What ppm scale are you using? That must be 500 scale? Are you starting with RO? Maybe you need to up that calmag, been running 4ml thru late veg into w4f to account for starting water. I had some a swing early on where it seemed like they needed more.

I went along with this from CC's site:
Method 1 – Top-Off Reservoir: Using a top-off reservoir makes it easy to follow weekly feeding schedules. The top-off reservoir should have a similar nutrient concentration than what’s in your hydroponic system or the following weeks nutrient schedule. For best results pH and EC/ppm adjustments should be done through the top-off reservoir.

I've added in as they've been feeding super slow into the control res which dilutes pretty well enough. It does seem like after a adding more when the ppm's drop down low, that the ratios of what's left and what's in there and how it adds in is not perfect and it's more of a getby till a full strength flush. I mix a full system refill in the topoff which holds another 10 gallons leftover after a refill, drain the system, fill from topoff and then as the plants feed and drink it drinks in that weeks nute levels and drinks it pretty consistently. PPM's just continually drop as time passes. As long as the PH doesn't start to tank down I let it eat. When I add in calmag/A/B I don't think it all really goes in with the same ratios. Or why do we always do calmag into RO first thing and wait before adding A to let it bond in. If you add calmag to to a full nute mix after the fact, does it still mix in as bioavailable to the plants or does it get bound up to some other chemical which throws it off? Holds me back a bit from wanting to keep adding. I figure if it's always circulating, as long as the nutrients are in the water at all they'll be drinking em up as it goes down if it's at 700ppm or 450ppm since there is so much extra volume of water/nutes in the UC vs a static dwc bucket. I wish CC would write out more on that and ppm maintenance needs more clearly.

With the injectors and addin, does your controller script account for the injection of ferts and allow mix time before trying to make adjustments? I have to remember to turn my bluelab to monitor whenever I add so it doesn't get too excited before it's all fully mixed up.
I have the full strength nute mix in the top off, no airstone though, that does seem like it would lead to some gross since you are pumping outside air in volume thru it and whatever nastys are in the air ends up in there too. WIth just a small recirc with water shooting back down a little manifold it keeps it mixed and fresh but the topoff is pretty much all tight to air and contaminates. Also no warmth from the warm air pump air so it stays much cooler. Do you have a chiller? Could plumb in a wort chiller into the water return out of the chiller thru the top off if temps were really crazy in the room.
A lot of things to cover here :)

First, I read a bit since my last post and discover a post/website that the guy, after 10 years, whatever the NPK ratio he was using, he was getting the same results over and over. So I let myself thinking about it a bit... and will try few things down the road.

Second, when the plants are eating more N than K, the ph tends to rise, if K is the main uptake, ph will drop. It's a matter of ion and there's nothing you can do about it, except adjusting the ph.

Third, a lot of sources are saying that "you need to feed the plant the good nutrient at the right time".

That brings me to my previous grows, the ph was mainly rising until really late in flowering, like 1-2 weeks before harvesting so I thought, maybe I add too much coco cal in flowering because I tend to have deficiencies in coco/cal when my grows start. So I lowered my coco cal input and plants are still fine, flowers look gorgeous, AND? Ph is now dropping... So I guess more K is uptaken than N and in flowering, that's better right? But, even if I lowered my coco cal, every leaves are still in good health. Flowers grows each days so I don't think there's an imbalance in the NPK ratio.

As for injection, I use a script that inject my coco cal at 0 minute of each hour, followed 3 minutes later by A, 3 minutes later B, 3 minutes later Mid. So plenty of time to avoid chemical reaction, it drops by the drop, not a big flow and the amount is ridiculous so not any shock or whatsoever on first plants next to the epi center. My ppm is rock steady, I only have to adjust from time to time, more frequently at the end of veg until week 3-4 of flowering then it's mainly steady until the last week. When I inject, ppm rises the more the stock solution A, it goes from 350-360 to 400-410 ppm then back to 350-360 with way enough time before it injects the B and so on.

I have a chiller since my first run in rdwc, it's totally crazy to avoid using one.

So, as for the main concern of ppm usage less intense after 2-3 days of flush, that doesn't seem to halt/stop the grow process, they are thriving. I'll just flush a bit sooner. I just did a flush after 4 days and I keep my injection ratio at the same rate it was before the flush, I'll see how it reacts.

I'm getting pretty amazing results so I'm changing things really slowly.

As for the flush, I use SI/COCO/A/B/MID, the one I let mix for few minutes is the SI.
Coco cal is mainly calcium, same nutrient found in A so there's no big risk to mix them quickly one after the other. So yes, I let mix a little bit longer between A and B.

It's a good way to maintain topoff (water pump with a "waterfall". it avoid the ph to drop (caused by co2 from the air, injected in water). Maybe that's what is causing some nasty thing to grow in there.

" If you add calmag to to a full nute mix after the fact, does it still mix in as bioavailable to the plants or does it get bound up to some other chemical which throws it off?"
With what I saw, injecting a bit less coco cal and ph changing its course, I tend to believe it's available to the plants.
 
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