Recycled Organic Living Soil (ROLS) and No Till Thread

[x713]

Do you guys use layers in your worm farms? our bottom layers is 99% EWC at all times…keep all three levels moist, with 1/4 inch hardware mesh in between.. leave a little banana stem / peel in middle of very bottom layer, all worms go to middle..

i use a sterlite bin and noticed having better success when i layer bedding on food ect

 

[DonTesla]

Leaf molds boss, on it.

 

[x713]

got enough of that!spent last fall stealing my neighbors bags of leaves and clippings.have enough for a couple of years

 

[x713]

on an other note i would post links on products i use but i come from a communist cannabis fourm where ive been scared to death of linking anything that doesnt have to do with the mighty circle of cannacon-artist if that makes any sense

 

[DonTesla]

i use a sterlite bin and noticed having better success when i layer bedding on food ect

Im talking about actual separated levels in the farm.. a downfall to bins unless they had some wire racks inside, but sterile is nice, no doubt

 

[reasonevangelist]

In the short term you can try a product called "RePeet" which is essentially composted dairy manure. I don't know where you live, so not sure on the availability of it around you.

http://www.organix.us/product/repeat/

In the long term leaf mold is where it's at. A simple rake and mulch (plus adding a N source to speed up decomposition) is all that needs to be done. It's a fungal dominant cold composting process that will yield a great soil ammendment in around 12 months. I have some leaves from last fall that I'm going to be using as a substitute for peat/coco this fall. I will be saving all of my leaves from this falls clean up and will be completely peat/coco free next year. I'm going to be starting a thread on leaf mold (with Rrog) at some point either here or in the Michigan section.

Awesome, thanks. In the peat vs coco considerations, i totally didn't think about the engines burning fuel to power the ships that import the stuff. Although i have to say that's not quite as upsetting as wrecking the bogs.

that repeet stuff looks interesting. But it doesn't seem very available (know of any "large" stores that ship it?). The map dots on their site are rather far from me. (and most of them only list "powerplant" as the product they carry) ... (and "dairy compost?" Hmm... is dairy sustainable? IIRC, cattle produce quite a bit of methane! lol)

Meanwhile, i gotta figure out what kind of massive tree that is in my yard... i said the trunk was "about a meter wide;" it's actually thicker than that. It's rather large. I read somewhere that oak isn't good for leaf mold...

 

[Pattahabi]

Don, poke me and I poke back. People want to throw up information and experience and learn together, I'm all for it. I certainly here to learn and help add to the info if I can. I don't deal well with unsubstantiated claims. I think the info you posted from local harvest would have been appropriate in your first post.

Well it depends not so much on size, but how many pounds of happy worms u got, cause they will eat their body weight inna day if happy. They live for 10 years straight with no sleep so if they are unstressed (no onions, acidic mix, not too dry, hot cold etc) they will also up to double their bio mass every month via mating and growing...

I PITY DA FOO! I'm posting good info on all fronts, P-boi.. whay u hatin'. 75% of my messages are liked so you can suck _____ and as for worms.. they CAN live up to 10 years.. average life span is only in the 2-3 year range in wild because of all their natural predators.... they do double bio mass too.. may take 3 months (they are sensitive to vibrations and light) my mentor was mistaken on the time frame, throw him in a jail cell !
I've been making worm farms for ppl and kept my worm mass the same or higher. ask these ppl if their worms ever sleep they have 30 acres and run a big wiggler biz.. they say they NEVER SLEEP too. hmm weird. maybe Tesla not crazy.. maybe read all the worm sites not just one that fits ur argument.. then pick ur fights with guys from the Peat side, jam to Marylin Manson in your cab and shut up .. pH nah concern us .. (thats for dissin Rasta)

http://www.localharvest.org/compost-worms-red-wigglers-C19926

"Red Wigglers aka Eisenia Fetida aka "compost worms" are built to compost. They never sleep, and in ideal conditions they double their population every 90 days, and eat their own body weight every 3-4 days!"
-Professional Worm Breeder/Farmer, Acreage/Business owner

The source I quoted was was Vermiculture Technologies. If you have conflicting information, please post it up. I'd love to look at it. I consider Clive Edwards to be a worm expert, I could be wrong.

Vermiculture Technologies - Edwards

The life cycle and population biology of E. fetida and E. andrei in different organic wastes have been investigated by several authors (Watanabe and Tsukamoto 1976; Hartenstein et al. 1979; Edwards 1988; Reinecke and Viljoen 1990; Domínguez et al. 1997; Domínguez and Edwards 1997; Domínguez et al. 2000; Monroy et al. 2006). The optimum temperature for growth of both species is 25°C(68°F), and although they can tolerate a wide range of moisture conditions, the optimum moisture content for these species is 85%. In optimum conditions the length of their life cycles (from newly-laid cocoon through clitellate adult earthworm) ranges from 45 to 51 days. The time for hatchlings to reach sexual maturity varies from 21 to 30 days. Copulation in these species, which takes place beneath the soil or waste surface, has been men- tioned by various authors since 1845 and has been observed more often than in any other megadrile species. Cocoon laying starts 48 hours after copulation, and the rate of cocoon production is 0.35–0.5 day–1. The hatching viability is 72%–82%, and the incubation period ranges from 18 to 26 days. The number of young earthworms hatching from viable cocoons varies from 2.5 to 3.8 depending on the temperature. In controlled conditions, the average life span is 594 days at 18°C(64.4°F) and 589 days at 28°C(82.4°F) with a maximum life expectancy between 4.5 and 5 years, although under natural conditions it may be considerably shorter.

Now I'd like to play nice,
P-

 

[DonPetro]

Soooo...does leaf mold make good worm food and lead to further diversification of the finished product? What are the best leaves to use? What leaves should one avoid? Is it possible to have to much humus in your soil mix? I believe humus to be the real secret weapon when wanting to go water-only. I feel like peat and coco are just fillers and we spend too much effort debating this stuff. Its only 1/3 of any mix most of the time anyway. Haven't heard much about using manures in anyones soil mix. How does everyone feel about steer manure?

 

[Pattahabi]

Word to the wise, don't under estimate the vigor of a green zebra. I'll give more respect to the term 'indeterminate' lol! Mine is already 2' above the top of the tomato cage and it's in a 15 gallon pot.



Edit: btw, the spots on the leaves are thrip damage. They can be more easily spotted by the damage then the insect imo. Spinosad at night has seemed to work. I still have bees flying around, and I did not have thrips for a long time after one spray. I'm just now starting to see a few make their way back, and I have a lot of trees and other foliage close by which was not treated.

P-

 

[Pattahabi]

Soooo...does leaf mold make good worm food and lead to further diversification of the finished product? What are the best leaves to use? What leaves should one avoid? Is it possible to have to much humus in your soil mix? I believe humus to be the real secret weapon when wanting to go water-only. I feel like peat and coco are just fillers and we spend too much effort debating this stuff. Its only 1/3 of any mix most of the time anyway. Haven't heard much about using manures in anyones soil mix. How does everyone feel about steer manure?

DonP, from what I have read leaf mold is very good worm food. My anecdotal evidence is they like it, but I'm going to experiment more in the near future. The diversification of final product is exactly the information I'm looking for. I've read some articles that hint that not all humus is equal. In addition it sounds like what really happens is we get a lot of not quite humus material. I know I posted this link, but I'd love to see other people read it and give their impressions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humus

It is difficult to define humus precisely; it is a highly complex substance, which is still not fully understood. Humus should be differentiated from decomposing organic matter. The latter is rough-looking material[8][9] and remains of the original plant are still visible. Fully humified organic matter, on the other hand, has a uniform dark, spongy, jelly-like appearance, and is amorphous. It may remain like this for millennia or more.[18] It has no determinate shape, structure or character. However, humified organic matter, when examined under the microscope may reveal tiny plant, animal or microbial remains that have been mechanically, but not chemically, degraded.[19] This suggests a fuzzy boundary between humus and organic matter. In most literature, humus is considered an integral part of soil organic matter

Stability
Compost that is readily capable of further decomposition is sometimes referred to as effective or active humus, though scientists would say that, if it is not stable, it is not humus at all. This kind of compost, rich in plant remains and fulvic acids, is an excellent source of plant nutrients, but of little value with respect to long-term soil structure and tilth. Stable (or passive) humus consists of humic acids and humins, which are so highly insoluble, or so tightly bound to clay particles and hydroxides, that they cannot be penetrated by microbes and are greatly resistant to further decomposition.[8][9] Thus stable humus adds few readily available nutrients to the soil, but plays an essential part in providing its physical structure. Some very stable humus complexes have survived for thousands of years.[18] The most stable humus is that formed from the slow oxidation of black carbon, after the incorporation of finely powdered charcoal into the topsoil. This process is at the origin of the formation of the fertile Amazonian dark earths or Terra preta do Indio

I want to know what effects different source material for humus has, if any. Obviously the Biosolids still contain high levels of heavy metals even after thermo and vermi composting. What remains of our base ingredient, and what effect does this have on our crops?

I have read a couple of reports that 100% ewc did not fair well. I'll have to look if I still have it.The only reason I stay away from cow manure is I had a few crops jacked up because of high sodium levels, which I believe to be from the manure.

P-

 

[DonTesla]

stop beating dead horses, good idea.. this is a ROLS thread i don't care to partake in pH talks, or coir vs peat talk. That shit is weak, like last week. We have a coir vs peat side by side going down. Thats some solid action.. who cares about the CEC of 20% of ur mix, whats the CEC and OTHER factors of the WHOLE mix.. humus rich bases are different. Tune in to that, and stop trying to compare oranges to apples in a banana thread… Example: You're talking AVERAGE LIFE SPAN I'm talking MAXIMUM LIFE SPAN (NOTED BY REAL LIFE Wiggler FARMERS ON BIG ACREAGES, NOWADAYS according to their knowledge experience and expertise). (You call that "misinforming ppl with stupid crap" -P, yet you don't see I'm talking wiggler MAX LIFE not AVERAGE LIFE, which, to me, is the truly stupid part)..

You think promoting of coir is annoying, great. I think how you provoke ppl (after a good healthy debate, (all while you stay judgmental and biased) then wanna "insult one second/play nice the next" is a little too bipolar and fake and racist for me.. use had some good posts but stop interacting with me and quoting me i am done with you. you're hard headed.. i was warned about you and now i see. Your obsessive nature over defending your biased positions blinds you to the inherently important syntaxes that prelude any accurate debate.. at least i can stay open minded, admit mistakes and give props where they are due..when due. and so drop your game on leaf mold, whatever else you got, but shut up about the CEC of peat and coir, thats 20% focus. Pareto's Law. Who cares. You handle the peat and Averages, I'll handle the coir and Maxes. Contribute to organics without ever talking to each other again, kapeesh?

 

[Pattahabi]

stop beating dead horses, good idea.. this is a ROLS thread i don't care to partake in pH talks, or coir vs peat talk. That shit is weak, like last week. We have a coir vs peat side by side going down. Thats some solid action.. who cares about the CEC of 20% of ur mix, whats the CEC and OTHER factors of the WHOLE mix.. humus rich bases are different. Tune in to that, and stop trying to compare oranges to apples in a banana thread… Example: You're talking AVERAGE LIFE SPAN I'm talking MAXIMUM LIFE SPAN (NOTED BY REAL LIFE Wiggler FARMERS ON BIG ACREAGES, NOWADAYS according to their knowledge experience and expertise). (You call that "misinforming ppl with stupid crap" -P, yet you don't see I'm talking wiggler MAX LIFE not AVERAGE LIFE, which, to me, is the truly stupid part)..

You think promoting of coir is annoying, great. I think how you provoke ppl (after a good healthy debate, (all while you stay judgmental and biased) then wanna "insult one second/play nice the next" is a little too bipolar and fake and racist for me.. use had some good posts but stop interacting with me and quoting me i am done with you. you're hard headed.. i was warned about you and now i see. Your obsessive nature over defending your biased positions blinds you to the inherently important syntaxes that prelude any accurate debate.. at least i can stay open minded, admit mistakes and give props where they are due..when due. and so drop your game on leaf mold, whatever else you got, but shut up about the CEC of peat and coir, thats 20% focus. Pareto's Law. Who cares. You handle the peat and Averages, I'll handle the coir and Maxes. Contribute to organics without ever talking to each other again, kapeesh?

From my quote:

In controlled conditions, the average life span is 594 days at 18°C(64.4°F) and 589 days at 28°C(82.4°F) with a maximum life expectancy between 4.5 and 5 years, although under natural conditions it may be considerably shorter.

Call that hard headed, I'm looking for your facts on worms.

Still going to play nice,
P-

 

[SpaaaceCowboy]

what happens when the worms die ? Do the other worms eat them ? Or do you have to take them out ?

 

[Pattahabi]

what happens when the worms die ? Do the other worms eat them ? Or do you have to take them out ?

They will break down and become humus.

 

[Pattahabi]

Full Text

Leaf mold is an excellent, free soil amendment. It is easy to make, simple to use, and has a huge impact on soil health.

What is Leaf Mold?

Leaf mold is the result of letting leaves sit and decompose over time. It is dark brown to black, has a pleasant earthy aroma and a crumbly texture, much like compost. In fact, leaf mold is just that: composted leaves. Instead of adding a bunch of organic matter to a pile, you just use leaves.

Benefits of Leaf Mold

You may be wondering why you shouldn’t just make compost. Why bother making a separate pile just for leaves? The answer is that while compost is wonderful for improving soil texture and fertility, leaf mold is far superior as a soil amendment. It doesn’t provide much in the way of nutrition, so you will still need to add compost or other organic fertilizers to increase fertility. Leaf mold is essentially a soil conditioner. It increases the water retention of soils. According to some university studies, the addition of leaf mold increased water retention in soils by over 50%. Leaf mold also improves soil structure and provides a fantastic habitat for soil life, including earthworms and beneficial bacteria.

How to Make Leaf Mold

There are two popular ways to make leaf mold, and both are ridiculously simple. The one thing you’ll need to keep in mind is that leaf mold doesn’t happen overnight. Leaves are basically all carbon, which takes a lot longer to break down than nitrogen-rich materials such as grass clippings. The decomposition process for leaves takes at least six to twelve months. The good news is that it’s basically six to twelve months with very little work on the gardener’s part.

The first method of making leaf mold consists of either piling your leaves in a corner of the yard or into a wood or wire bin. The pile or bin should be at least three feet wide and tall. Pile up your leaves, and thoroughly dampen the entire pile. Let it sit, checking the moisture level occasionally during dry periods and adding water if necessary.

The second method of making leaf mold requires a large plastic garbage bag. Fill the bag with leaves and moisten them. Seal the bag and then cut some holes or slits in the bag for air flow. Let it sit. Check the bag every month or two for moisture, and add water if the leaves are dry.

After six months to a year, you will have finished leaf mold. Impatient? There are a couple of things you can do to speed up the process:

Before adding leaves to your pile or bag, run over them a couple of times with your lawn mower. Smaller pieces will decompose more quickly.
Use a shovel or garden fork to turn your leaf pile every few weeks. If you are using the plastic bag method, just turn it over or give it a firm shake. This will introduce air into the process, which speeds decomposition.
If you are using the pile or bin method, cover your pile with a plastic tarp. This will keep the leaves more consistently moist and warm
How to Use Leaf Mold

Leaf mold has several uses in the garden. You can dig or till it into garden beds to improve soil structure and water retention. You can use it as mulch in perennial beds or vegetable gardens. It’s also fabulous in containers, due to its water retaining abilities.

Leaf mold is simple, free, and effective. If you’re lucky enough to have a tree or two (or ten) on your property, you’ve got everything you need to make great garden soil.

I know nothing about this, but maybe something to consider (as well as the source of the leaves - were they sprayed with anything? Remember, Roundup (Glyphosate) has a half life of 22 years.

I just want to giive a heads up that from what I've read a majority of trash bags have some type of pesticide coating to prevent bugs from being in your trash. Here in america at least such thing isn't required to be on the label so practice caution my fellow organic fanatics.

Jaykush says making your leaf mold in a pit rather then above ground will make it faster and better.

In some quick reading I'm seeing people saying they are substituting 1:1 leaves to peat, others are mixing with peat.

Now I need to get back to What Plants Know. This is a $10 book from amazon, and I have to say thought provoking is an understatement. Excellent read, and here's the first chapter:

P-

 

[DonPetro]

Ok everyone...consider this mix:
3 cubic foot base mix composed of 37.5% humus-rich soil, 18.75% coir, 9.375% worm castings, 9.375% composted steer manure and 25% perlite.
Added to the base is 1 cup of the following amendments:
-blood meal
-bone meal
-alfalfa meal
-kelp meal
-neem meal
-rock phosphate
-greensand
-dolomite lime
Also added 1 cup each 5-2-4 organic dry all-purpose, crushed eggshells and rice. Any suggestions?

 

[OutofLEDCloset]

In the short term you can try a product called "RePeet" which is essentially composted dairy manure. I don't know where you live, so not sure on the availability of it around you.

http://www.organix.us/product/repeat/

In the long term leaf mold is where it's at. A simple rake and mulch (plus adding a N source to speed up decomposition) is all that needs to be done. It's a fungal dominant cold composting process that will yield a great soil ammendment in around 12 months. I have some leaves from last fall that I'm going to be using as a substitute for peat/coco this fall. I will be saving all of my leaves from this falls clean up and will be completely peat/coco free next year. I'm going to be starting a thread on leaf mold (with Rrog) at some point either here or in the Michigan section.

Wow I'm excited about leaf mold!! What happened to me.

 

[st0wandgrow]

Ok everyone...consider this mix:
3 cubic foot base mix composed of 37.5% humus-rich soil, 18.75% coir, 9.375% worm castings, 9.375% composted steer manure and 25% perlite.
Added to the base is 1 cup of the following amendments:
-blood meal
-bone meal
-alfalfa meal
-kelp meal
-neem meal
-rock phosphate
-greensand
-dolomite lime
Also added 1 cup 5-2-4 organic dry all-purpose and 1 cup of rice. Any suggestions?

Rock dusts

 

[DonPetro]

Rock dusts

In place of the lime?

 

[st0wandgrow]

In place of the lime?

In addition to. I use oyster shell flour for liming, and in addition to that 3-4 cups per cf of rock fines. Minerals/trace elements are mostly absent in the soils we put together unless we add them.