Reverse Engineering everyone's nutrients

Redoctober said:

I have been making 500-800mL stock solutions at 200x concentration which works out to 5mL of stock per liter of rez or 19mL per gallon.
I'm using Hydrobuddy to do all of my calculations.
My measurements are fairly accurate I'd say +-10mL for liquids and +-.01g for the salts.
I'm using pyrex measuring cups which I know aren't as accurate as a graduated cylinder but it's what I have at the moment
The pH of the calcium nitrate stock (Part B) is 5.5
The pH of the other stock (part A) is 3.33
The pH of the Agsil stock is 12.2
I am measuring the TDS of the rez with a HM digital meter

Maybe I should have excluded the Magnesium Sulfate from the stock A solution as I do see some precipitate in there as well,
I'm assuming that if properly mixed, one should never see precipitates?
It almost makes me want to make a separate stock for each salt but that's a lot of jars!

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Since you're using Hydrobuddy, what are you target concentrations of each macro/micro nutrient?

And what is going into each stock solution? How many grams of each fertilizer?

Also, in regards to how concentrated your stock solutions are, I want to let you know what many liquid blends are in the 1000 - 4000x concentration. So, your mixes at 200x aren't a problem.

MisterBlah said:

Since you're using Hydrobuddy, what are you target concentrations of each macro/micro nutrient?

And what is going into each stock solution? How many grams of each fertilizer?

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I am attaching a pic of my Early Bloom formula. I arrived at this formula through reading Fatman's threads as well as a bunch of others. It's all a big experiment as everyone has their own idea of what the proper NPK should be. Plants seem very happy so far. Ignore the trace element target amounts as I am using JR Peters MOST (Mix of Soluble Traces) for that at a rate of .05g per gallon. This is sort of an experiment with higher Sulfur levels to see what happens.

Oh also I forgot to mention that I am applying this at half strength, so the EC of 1.4 is not what I'm actually using. The rez ends up having a ppm of around 800. Included in this but not on Hydrobuddy is also Humic & Fulvic Acid at 1/8 tsp per gallon, Ferti-Nitro (amino acids & amino Nitrogen) @ 1/8tsp per gallon, and Kelp @ 1/16tsp per gallon.

One thing I do want to mention is that solubility of each blend of fertilizers is often times figured out via trial and error. What's done is called the Jar test. Using about 1L of your source water, you mix everything in the concentrations you plan on using and then look for a precipitate. If a precipitate forms or the solution has a milky appearance, try again with lower concentrations of everything.

ttystikk said:

Bravo! I applaud the OP's desire to educate the masses about the FACTS of plant nutrition.

Lesson #1: if it's in water bottle form, you paid too much.

Agricultural dry nutrient salts have all the pricing advantages and more of DIY nutrient mixing without the hassle of measuring out tiny amounts of micros. Premixed, yet still dry.

The money saved over waterbottle nutes is shocking. Why? Because those nutrient companies are RIPPING YOU OFF!

It turns out there is massive collusion going on at the hydro store distributorship level; the first thing a new store operator has to premise is that he will ONLY use an approved list of distributors, excluding all others. I believe this is illegal, but they've been getting away with it for over a decade.

There's only one reason why they'd do that; to support artificially high prices and offer the often uneducated customer an alternative narrative to the actual chemistry going on at the root level.

That's right; all that talk about calmag and boosters is bullshit. Straight out of their asses! Did you ever wonder why you have trouble sorting out nutrient problems? Is not you, it's the contractually obligated hydro store owner trying to sell you more bullshit.

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The nutrient companies aren't ripping us off. It's unbelievably expensive printing those pretty labels and adding water.

MisterBlah said:

Also, in regards to how concentrated your stock solutions are, I want to let you know what many liquid blends are in the 1000 - 4000x concentration. So, your mixes at 200x aren't a problem.

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WOW! I didn't know they were that concentrated. I must be doing something wrong if I'm getting precipitates.

I've never had a problem mixing magnesium sulfate and MKP, and I use 400x concentrated a+b solutions. I doubt that's what's turning things cloudy, because my stock solution with MKP has always been crystal clear.

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Hmmm....maybe it's something else in my Stock A that's causing it. Do you add your salts to room temperature water when you make your stock? Or do you warm it up? Does the order you add them in make any difference?

Redoctober said:

WOW! I didn't know they were that concentrated. I must be doing something wrong if I'm getting precipitates.

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What are you using for your micronutrients? Just EDTA chelates, right?

If you are mixing all of your magnesium sulfate and magnesium nitrate with chelated micro nutrients, it's possible those are also contributing. In that case, move to a three part for this. Also, if you're willing to drop the silicate, I can run all this through the commercial software that I use based on the concentrations you want, to see if it comes out much different.

MisterBlah said:

What are you using for your micronutrients? Just EDTA chelates, right?

If you are mixing all of your magnesium sulfate and magnesium nitrate with chelated micro nutrients, it's possible those are also contributing. In that case, move to a three part for this. Also, if you're willing to drop the silicate, I can run all this through the commercial software that I use based on the concentrations you want, to see if it comes out much different.

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I assume that the micros are EDTA chelates but the JR Peters website doesn't seem to specify: http://www.jrpeters.com/Products/Jack-s-Professional/Jack-s-Pro/Specialty-Crop-Formulas/MOST.html
I can buy the individual micros if you think that would be better than running the Jacks, it just seemed like overkill.

Sure, if you want to run it without the silica and see what you get, that would be phenomenal! Thanks! You can input whatever you think is best for the micros. Also wondering what you think of my targets? Do they look reasonable, or is anything way out of line?
What does the silica do to throw off the calculation in your software?
What software are you running, out of curiosity?...I like Hydrobuddy and Daniel Fernandez did a great job, but it does have a few drawbacks. I'd be willing to spring for something a bit more professional unless we're talking thousands of $$$

I've seen one called SMART, but I have no idea how good or bad it is....here is the video I watched about it, https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PLnnCzlPzetU8-qticjJKft6Tyi5BcYamu&v=a5wUZKDlO8A

Redoctober said:

I assume that the micros are EDTA chelates but the JR Peters website doesn't seem to specify: http://www.jrpeters.com/Products/Jack-s-Professional/Jack-s-Pro/Specialty-Crop-Formulas/MOST.html
I can buy the individual micros if you think that would be better than running the Jacks, it just seemed like overkill.

Sure, if you want to run it without the silica and see what you get, that would be phenomenal! Thanks! You can input whatever you think is best for the micros. Also wondering what you think of my targets? Do they look reasonable, or is anything way out of line?
What does the silica do to throw off the calculation in your software?
What software are you running, out of curiosity?...I like Hydrobuddy and Daniel Fernandez did a great job, but it does have a few drawbacks. I'd be willing to spring for something a bit more professional unless we're talking thousands of $$$

I've seen one called SMART, but I have no idea how good or bad it is....here is the video I watched about it, https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PLnnCzlPzetU8-qticjJKft6Tyi5BcYamu&v=a5wUZKDlO8A

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They should be EDTA chelates. Once I get Open-salt fully functional, I'll try to offer pure chelates instead of a micromix like what you linked to.

The Smart-Fertilizer software is the one I use, actually. Entry level pricing is definitely out of range for the home user. Plus, hydrobuddy does basically the same thing. The only drawback is that it does not include silica. I've asked them about it and they said they were thinking about adding it.

The big difference is in the solver. Personally, I think Hydrobuddy's solver is a better solver, however, I actually prefer not to use it. Developing a fertigation or hydro plan isn't something that needs to take 20 seconds. So, I take my time and make note of what I'm adding and what I use to get there. I always hit my targets or come with 1-2% on a single target.

In regards to your targets, it's hard to say. If you are running a hydroponics setup, it's not bad. All your ratios for NPK, Ca, and Mg are in good shape. What I tend to have is a different, it's not really noteable. And remember that there is no right answer for a lot of this, there's mostly "This is a good answer and it grows good healthy plants".
If you are growing in soil I have absolutely zero idea since I don't know your soil quality or have any data on tissue sampling. Just so you know, the soil quality can have a profound effect on what you should be adding to your fertigation solution. It can either eliminate the need for micronutrients or drop your nitrogen numbers down below 30ppm. It all depends. For that would need soil quality tests done, at the very least. Tissue sampling in cannabis is currently practically impossible in the US, unfortunately.

I have also realized that having a tutorial on HydroBuddy would be a very useful thing to have on my website.

Now, let me do my thing with your targets:

Magnesium Sulfate: 524.44mg/L
Magnesium Nitrate: 488.91mg/L
Potassium Sulfate(Sulfate of Potash): 287.91mg/L
Calcium Nitrate: 263.16mg/L
Ammonium Nitrate: 100.62mg/L
MonoPotassium Phosphate: 96.15mg/L

This gets you:
130ppm Total N
110 N-NO3
20 N-NH4
50 P2O5
180 K2O
98.33 Mg
50 Ca
120 S

I've left out the chelated micronutrients simply because I can assure you that if you use each on individually instead of using a micromix, you can reach the exact numbers you want.

The autofill tanks feature of SMART tells me to create 3 tanks.
Tank 1:
Ammonium Nitrate
Magnesium Nitrate
Magnesium Sulfate
Potassium Sulfate

Tank 2:
MKP

Tank 3:
Calcium Nitrate

The reasoning behind the three part is that MKP with Magnesium Nitrate might form Magnesium Phosphate much like it might for Calcium Phosphate/Sulfate

EDIT: The MKP with Magnesium might be contributing to your precipitate problem.

Great Stuff! Thank you so much!
Good to know that Hydrobuddy is sufficient.
I think I will be moving to chelated salts because I have real trouble getting the Jacks MOST to dissolve in water, any water, hot/cold doesn't matter.

I'm about to do an experiment now because I need to top off my rez (btw I am in hydro using RO water, but others here might be in soil I'm sure)
I know you shouldn't add new nutrient solution to existing rez, but I have to test this precipitate thing out...can't help myself lol
I will make 4 separate 1-gallon buckets of RO water adding salts directly to each and adjust pH before combining into the main rez

btw, my RO water sometimes comes out cold (58-63-ish) especially in the winter time.
Would you advise warming or even heating the water up when preparing stock solutions to increase solubility?
I've gone up to 180 degrees but this may have contributed to the problem of creating precipitates as well.

P.S. do not heat up water when making silica solution - it turns into a putty like substance. I learned this the hard way and wasted a bunch of Agsil

Oh, also forgot to ask, aside from the Agsil, or any silica product (which can be dangerous if inhaled), do you wear a respirator when mixing salts?

I do, but most of the salts don't even look like they could get airborne, except maybe the potassium sulfate which is a powder, and the diatomaceous earth (also a powder)
I guess the humic and fulvic acids are also pretty powdery and wispy too
What are your thoughts?

Redoctober said:

Great Stuff! Thank you so much!

I'm about to do an experiment now because I need to top off my rez (btw I am in hydro using RO water, but others here might be in soil I'm sure)
I know you shouldn't add new nutrient solution to existing rez, but I have to test this precipitate thing out...can't help myself lol
I will make 4 separate 1-gallon buckets of RO water adding salts directly to each and adjust pH before combining into the main rez

btw, my RO water sometimes comes out cold (64-68-ish) especially in the winter time.
Would you advise warming or even heating the water up when preparing stock solutions to increase solubility?
I've gone up to 180 degrees but this may have contributed to the problem of creating precipitates as well.

P.S. do not heat up water when making silica solution - it turns into a putty like substance. I learned this the hard way and wasted a bunch of Agsil

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Adding new nutrient solution to existing reservoir is not actually the problem you might think it is. The recommendations I make to commercial clients is to seldom change your water. But, we also have the added benefit of water quality analysis to tell me what's in the water and we do that every week. The big numbers I look for are 75ppm sodium and 75ppm chloride. Above that, and you're in bad shape/need to change your water.

So, I want to tell you about the Jar Test. the Jar Test is typically a 1L jar or Erlenmeyer Flask. When ever I'm mixing a new blend in new concentrations with stuff I haven't mixed before, I do a Jar Test. I put in all the fertilizers that I am using into the jar in the exact concentrations I will use in the final product. I look for precipitates and a milky color. While there are general precautions you can take with mixing fertilizers, I never want to risk wasting a large quantity. If I see a precipitate, I will heat up the flask to 100°F, maybe 120°F to see if it changes. If everything dissolves at the higher temperature, then I know I am just running too high of a concentration. If the precipitate does not go away, then I need to change the blend.

Precipitates form based on concentration. This is why you can use calcium nitrate and monopotassium phosphate in the low concentrations of a hydroponic solution, but not in a concentrate. I'll have more on precipitates in general on my website later.

Redoctober said:

Oh, also forgot to ask, aside from the Agsil, or any silica product (which can be dangerous if inhaled), do you wear a respirator when mixing salts?

I do, but most of the salts don't even look like they could get airborne, except maybe the potassium sulfate which is a powder, and the diatomaceous earth (also a powder)
I guess the humic and fulvic acids are also pretty powdery and wispy too
What are your thoughts?

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It's not a bad idea to take precautions in instances like these. I'm am not a fan of inhaling powders of any kind.

If mixing magnesium sulfate and MKP was causing the problem, you'd think that GH would stop putting magnesium sulfate in their flora bloom. Flora bloom, even though you say it can be made with Magnesium Nitrate and Mono Potassium Phosphate, is actually made with Magnesium sulfate and MKP.

http://www.americanag.com/assets/images/ProductImages/GeneralHydroponics/GH-FloraBloomLabel2-pop.jpg

Even though it's possible to form magnesium phosphate precipitates, I really doubt that's his issue. It also sounds like it's the reservoir going cloudy, not his stock solutions, which makes me believe it has something to do with the silica, or the high level of S. Like I said earlier, I mix MKP and magnesium sulfate in my B stock solution, and it's been crystal clear.

churchhaze said:

If mixing magnesium sulfate and MKP was causing the problem, you'd think that GH would stop putting magnesium sulfate in their flora bloom. Flora bloom, even though you say it can be made with Magnesium Nitrate and Mono Potassium Phosphate, is actually made with Magnesium sulfate and MKP.

http://www.americanag.com/assets/images/ProductImages/GeneralHydroponics/GH-FloraBloomLabel2-pop.jpg

Even though it's possible to form magnesium phosphate precipitates, I really doubt that's his issue. It also sounds like it's the reservoir going cloudy, not his stock solutions, which makes me believe it has something to do with the silica, or the high level of S. Like I said earlier, I mix MKP and magnesium sulfate in my B stock solution, and it's been crystal clear.

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Come to think of it, I think you are right that it is not an MKP/ Mg problem. I don't use silica often enough to have encountered something like this before, so I couldn't really be sure that that is the problem. Also, hence why I told him about the Jar Test.

Silica in a hydrous suspension messes with everything; as mentioned it gets gooey and sludgy, it pushes pH up hard and thereby jacks up chelated nutes like iron.

I was told to run it separately from the rest of my plant's nutrients; run it in RDWC for awhile, then dump and replace with the standard nutrient mix. I got so frustrated I gave up applying it to roots and now foliar spray it.

ttystikk said:

now foliar spray it.

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I've heard a lot of people do the application this way. And at this point, it makes a lot of sense. Low concentrations in a foliar spray.

MisterBlah said:

I've heard a lot of people do the application this way. And at this point, it makes a lot of sense. Low concentrations in a foliar spray.

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That's my thinking; I use Dyna-Gro brand potassium silicate, I apply it at 15ml/gal, it raises leaf surface pH to help ward off powdery mildew, acts as a fertilizer and makes itself accessible to the plant right where it's needed.

The obvious next question is, could you reverse engineer it for me? I'm not familiar with the powder mentioned above and so I'm not sure if it's the same stuff.

ttystikk said:

That's my thinking; I use Dyna-Gro brand potassium silicate, I apply it at 15ml/gal, it raises leaf surface pH to help ward off powdery mildew, acts as a fertilizer and makes itself accessible to the plant right where it's needed.

The obvious next question is, could you reverse engineer it for me? I'm not familiar with the powder mentioned above and so I'm not sure if it's the same stuff.

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You use Dyna-Gro Liquid Pro-tekt? Because it's just potassium silicate in solution. I've already done it. It's at the bottom of the page. http://www.open-salt.com/fertilizer-database/dyna-gro/

So it seems that it was the Agsil (silica) causing the problems. You are right churchhaze!
I did an experiment where I mixed 3, 1.5-gallon buckets of salts separately with RO water - sulfates & phosphates in #1, Calcium Nitrate in #2, and Magnesium sulfate in #3
Then poured a little bit of each into a forth bucket one at a time to see if there was any precipitate...there was not...with any combo of the three
So then I poured them all into one 5-gal bucket...still no precipitate
I then moved on to the Agsil
I filled a bucket with about 2 gallons of RO water and added the amount of Agsil I needed
I then split that into 2 buckets, and pH adjusted one of them down to about 6.2 and left the other one where it was at about 11
I then poured a small amount of my newly mixed 3-part nutrient solution into both and viola!
The one at pH-11 turned instantly cloudy, while the other that had been pH adjusted to 6.2, remained clear
You can see the resultant pH of each solution in the pix below. The nutrient solution itself was acidic so it brought the pH of each Agsil bucket down a bit
The very last pic is the precipitate of the cloudy bucket after settling for about 10 minutes

Finally one last test...I poured a small amount of nutrient solution into a clean bucket and poured about 10mL of Agsil stock concentrate (same dilution as proTekt bacically) into it
You can see the resultant swirling cloud of liquid Agsil in the pics
That was what happened when I mixed my entire rez last time

It seems the high pH of the Agsil was causing this cloudiness. This is very similar to when you pour undiluted pH up or down into a rez (which I found out isn't such a great idea) and you see that cloud of liquid that you then have to stir into solution
The swirling cloud of Agsil did dissipate upon stirring, and I couldn't detect any precipitate
I couldn't tell if it had gone into solution and dissolved, or bound something and precipitated out
This will definitely make me rethink how I mix and apply nutrient salts because I had been using Agsil as a pH-up agent
Perhaps it's okay to do this as long as its diluted in some water before applying to the rez?