Scotch Whisky / Bourbon Whiskey thread

BarnBuster

Virtually Unknown Member
Interesting article I ran across:

Does Whisky Age in a Bottle?

by Oliver Klimek on March 21, 2010

Just like the issue of whisky with vs. without ice, this question is one that is continuously popping up among whisky lovers. Much has been written about that topic, but still there is much uncertainty and confusion about it. Let me try to shed some light on this.

The Old Commonplace: It doesn’t!​

One of the things any aspiring whisky afficionado learns first, is that whisky does not change after it has been bottled, under the condition that it has been properly stored. A 10yo bottled in 1970 will still be a 10yo today. Unlike wine, which does change after bottling quite a bit, the high alcohol concentration forbids anything to happen inside the liquid. So they say.

Or does It?​

But nevertheless many have reported that they had found differences in taste between to bottles of the same whisky opened within a period of many years. Can this be explained only by psychology?

And then there is also the strange phenomenon that many ancient bottles containing whisky bottled at a young age seem to get much better marks than their contemporary cousins. Is this just because “they don’t make it like that anymore”? So much research has been done around whisky making that it is hard to believe that just using Golden Promise barley instead of the modern varieties and heating the stills with a direct fire could powderize all progress in whisky making in the last fifty years.

So It Does Then?​

Meanwhile, more and more whisky lovers recognize the fact that their favourite tipple does indeed change over time, even in a sealed bottle. The high alcohol content may work against it, but if you look at it with a bit of common sense, it should be clear that something just must happen in the bottle after the cork has been sealed.

And What Exactly Does Happen?​

The key in understanding whisky bottle ageing lies in understanding the change that red wine undergoes during bottle ageing. The two key elements here are air and tannins.

1. Just underneath the cork, there is always a bit of air in the bottle that can react with the wine. And furthermore, no cork can seal a bottle tightly enough to disallow any exchange of air with the outside. The exchange may be only minimal but it is there.

The interaction of wine with air is commonly called oxidation. This is a bit of a misconception because wine is not a homogenuous material like iron that can rust. It is a very complex mixture of many chemicals, some of which actually do oxidise and some of which are inert to the influence of oxygen.

2. The tannins contained in the wine – resulting from the stems and pips of the grapes as well as from the cask wood – slowly react with other substances to form new aromatic compounds.

In bottled whisky, exactly the same things happen. The process is much slower though because the alcohol forms a kind of coating around the reactive molecules that first has to be overcome by the reactants. And then, whisky has less tannins than red wine because the spirit itself does not contain any. All tannins present in whisky have been leeched out of the cask wood. This might also explain why especially old bourbon whiskey seem to beneftit drastically from bottle ageing. I remember one of the Malt Maniacs e-pistles where there is an amazing report about a tasting of some very old American whiskeys. Due to their maturation in fresh oak casks there should be more tannins present in those than in your average scotch.

So in my opionion it would be foolish to believe that all of the hundreds of chemical substances that are present in whisky would become totally inert right after bottling.

Time for an Experiment​

The only way to really pin down changes in a bottle of whisky over time can be a long-term experiment. 20 bottles of the same whisky batch have to be stored together in a controlled environment. Every year, a bottle is opened and analysed by gas chromatography. Any volunteers?

Changing vs. Ageing​

There are people who admit changes taking place in bottled whisky, but they refuse to call it ageing or maturation because these terms were legally restricted to the period the whisky rests casked in the warehouse. Let’s see what the 1990 Scotch Whisky Order has to say about that (Section 3 c):

“Scotch whisky” […] means whisky which has been matured in an excise warehouse in Scotland in oak casks of a capacity not exceeding 700 litres, the period of that maturation being not less than 3 years.

This is the only mention of maturation in the order, the 1988 Scotch Whisky Act say the same in a slightly diferent wording. And the term “ageing” is not mentioned in either of the documents, so I think it is fair to indeed use the term “bottle ageing” for the things that happen in a whisky bottle.
 

Poi-Poi

Well-Known Member
Got to try some of the Frank Sinatra Jack Daniels New Year's Eve and it is absolutely phenomenal I highly recommend it if you've got a spare $150 laying around for a bottle lol but personally I drink Jack or Jameson straight when I do decide to drink.
 

BarnBuster

Virtually Unknown Member
RANT
I like to try something different especially if I read a good review. So...into the state store I go looking for Old Grand Dad 114 (nope, don't stock), Fighting Cock (nope don't stock), 1792 Small Batch (nope, don't stock), Noah's Mill 114 (nope, dont' stock) you see where I'm going with this, but...

YOU'VE GOT 40 FUCKING FEET OF EVERY FLAVOR OF VODKA!! WTF? :(

done with rant
 
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BarnBuster

Virtually Unknown Member
Age Statements and the Loss of our Friend

Fred Minnick January 20, 2016 (Fred is a bourbon authority and writes/reviews for many publications. EC was/is one of my favorites, also, BB)

"Heaven Hill Brands is discontinuing its age statement on Elijah Craig Small Batch. The former Elijah Craig 12-year-old Small Batch will now be a composite of 8- to 12-year-old barrels.

The Elijah Craig Barrel Proof product will keep its 12-year-old age statement and there are no plans to remove it, officials said. The company said the Barrel Proof will see “a little more availability.”

The updated product is set to hit the distribution pipeline later this week. It will remain 94 proof.

Heaven Hill is increasing the Elijah Craig Small Batch barrel dump from around 100 casks to 200 barrels. The suggested retail price will remain around $30, officials said.

In 2015, Heaven Hill moved its 12-year-old age statement of Elijah Craig (see photo above) from the front to a much smaller print on the back.

Today, Heaven Hill informs me it’s dropping its age statement altogether on Elijah Craig Small Batch.

In 2014, for my WhiskyAdvocate.com Burning Down the Rumor Mill story, Heaven Hill steadfastly denied removing the 12-year-old age statement. But last year, Heaven Hill moved its age statement to the back label Elijah Craig, when the company was debating the brand’s age statement. Why?

Barrel inventory.

The company says there’s not enough 12-year-old bourbon to grow the Elijah Craig brand and still supply future 18-year-old and 21-year-old versions. Elijah Craig Small Batch is a 70,000 nine unit case product, and the company believes it would decrease 30 percent in case volume at the current rate when factoring holding stocks for 18-year-old Elijah Craig. “We are trying to protect flavor profile of brand. We will have dumps closer to 11 to 12 {year-old barrels},” says master distiller Denny Potter. “We’ve been handcuffed a little bit because we can’t distribute like we want to. I feel this brand has been under appreciated because it’s not as visible as others.”

They did not consider lowering the proof and said will make it publicly known if they must lower the 8-year-old minimum barrel target. Heaven Hill also cited the goal for on-premise whiskey and a desire to keep Elijah Craig at its current price.

When the Heaven Hill private barrel selections are restarted this fall, buyers will be able to select from 8- to 12-year-old Elijah Craig barrels. Heaven Hill’s Bernheim distillery is also expanding, adding a new still and fermenters, so maybe the age statement could return with increased production (the possible return is not a Heaven Hill statement, it’s my hope.)

So there are the facts. How do I feel?

Well, I enjoy many bourbons. But Elijah Craig 12-year-old was special. I sipped on it while watching Oklahoma State. If I didn’t have a bottle, I’d take a pull from Evan Williams, which is the same whiskey just different age and barrel dump amounts.

From the business perspective, I totally understand. Heaven Hill is trying to grow the Elijah Craig brand and you cannot justify keeping an age statement if you want to maximize the brand’s potential and profits. If you think age statements matter from a business standpoint, then, why are Woodford Reserve, Maker’s Mark, Buffalo Trace, Jim Beam White, etc., all selling case after case?

But from a consumer perspective, age statements matter, because it gives us something to compare and contrast. That’s why we like knowing the mashbills and barrel chars. Bourbon consumers just want what is afforded to wine drinkers: Production information. Wine lovers can tell you which side of the hill grapes were grown, while beer people recite the hop styles as if they’re the Pledge of Allegiance. Meanwhile, bourbon affords us a brand name and alcohol by volume / proof. That’s why I included mashbills, grain origins, barrel-entry proofs, barrel chars, and then some in my book Bourbon Curious. We just want information.

If Heaven Hill sticks to their whiskey transparency plans, there shouldn’t be a problem. They’ve become one of the most-transparent companies in bourbon, giving me unprecedented access to Bernheim production logs, mashbills and to production people who make the company tick. All of the transparency is great, and I’m sure Elijah Craig Small Batch will be delicious and as drinkable as before.

I will be receiving the new Elijah Craig Small Batch sample and hope to write a side-by-side comparison. For now, I’m mourning. I’ve lost an old friend"

I suspect this loss of age statement is happening with some Scotch as well.

a semi-explanation from a Heaven Hill employee dated last year here:
http://www.whiskeyprof.com/whiskies-and-age-statements-wtf-is-going-on-here-part-2/
 
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Singlemalt

Well-Known Member
about 15 years ago, my boss stripped out his wood fireplace and replaced it with a gas burner. He asked me if I wanted the old one, so I went to pick it up. So happened it was the anniversary of the death of a very old family friend of his. We load up my truck, fuck around for a bit and then he tells me of his required task for this day, kind of a tontine sort of thing; which was a remembrance drink to an old fallen friend. He broke out a half bottle of Johnny Walker Blue, we both had a shot and he put it away. It was a moving experience and the scotch was excellent....set me off on my scotch path.
 

bluntmassa1

Well-Known Member
You are young and your palate has not refined yet, you shall get there ;)
Lol, Doubtful I have tried most every kind of whiskey Hennessey, Crown Royal, Gentlemen's Jack, Jack Daniels, that one popular scotch, Jim Bean and a few others. Not a single one I think I would ever like I can do shots of Grey Goose Vodka though. But yeah I still don't really care for beer too much Corona and a few others are decent but I just don't like any American beer I've tried and I will take a mixed drink over Corona every time and the summer Strawberry Daqarius, Pina Colada, and mudslides are the shit. I bought a blender just for my bitch drinks. :bigjoint:

I like my alcohol like I like my weed if I don't love the taste I sell it.:bigjoint: Kinda sucks for the customer cause I didn't sell a gram of my best Mango Haze that bitch went 14 weeks some where quicker just not as good.
 

BarnBuster

Virtually Unknown Member
The Top 40 Most Expensive Whiskies and Avg US Price
wine-searcher.com 2/1/2016
The Balvenie 50 Year Old Single Malt Scotch Whisky, Speyside $37,149
The Macallan Lalique 62 Year Old Single Malt Scotch Whisky, Speyside – Highlands $30,439
Gordon & MacPhail Generations Mortlach 75 Years Old Single Malt Whisky, Speyside $25,275
Glenfiddich 50 Year Old Single Malt Scotch Whisky, Speyside $20,431
The Macallan Fine & Rare Vintage Single Malt Scotch Whisky, Speyside – Highlands $18,699
Glenfarclas John Grant 60 Year Old Single Malt Scotch Whisky, Speyside $16,980
Highland Park 50 Year Old Single Malt Scotch Whisky, Orkney $16,713
The Macallan Select Reserve Single Malt Scotch Whisky, Speyside – Highlands $15,269
The Dalmore Constellation Collection Vintage Single Malt Scotch Whisky, Highlands $13,064
Ardbeg Special Release Double Barrel 33 Year Old Single Malt Scotch Whisky, Islay $7,030
Glen Grant 50 Year Old Single Malt Scotch Whisky, Speyside $6,145
Karuizawa Samurai Cask Thirty Year Old Single Malt Whisky, Japan $5,705
Karuizawa ‘Geisha Label’ Vintage Single Cask Malt Whisky, Japan $5,248
Karuizawa Vintage Single Cask Malt Whisky, Japan $4,697
The Macallan 1824 Series ‘M’ Single Malt Scotch Whisky, Speyside – Highlands $4,692
The Balvenie 40 Year Old Single Malt Scotch Whisky, Speyside $4,323
Ledaig Dusgadh 42 Year Old Single Malt Scotch Whisky, Isle of Mull $4,319
Gordon & MacPhail Mortlach 50 Years Old Rare Highland Malt Scotch Whisky, Highlands $4,283
The Macallan Royal Marriage Single Malt Scotch Whisky, Speyside – Highlands $4,138
The Scotch Malt Whisky Society Karuizawa Single Malt Whisky, Japan $4,021
Glenmorangie Pride Single Malt Scotch Whisky, Speyside $3,959
Highland Park Orcadian Vintage Series Single Malt Scotch Whisky, Orkney $3,608
The Last Drop Finest Aged 1960 Blended Scotch Whiskey, Scotland $3,573
Glengoyne 35 Year Old Single Malt Scotch Whisky, Highlands $3,554
Ichiro’s Malt Hanyu ‘The Game’ Single Malt Whisky, Japan $3,493
The Macallan 1824 Series No. 6 in Lalique Single Malt Whisky, Speyside – Highlands $3,385
Johnnie Walker ‘The John Walker’ Blended Scotch Whisky, Scotland $3,384
Glenfiddich 40 Year Old Single Malt Scotch Whisky, Speyside $3,378
The Macallan Sherry Oak 30 Year Old Single Malt Scotch Whisky, Scotland $3,244
Glendronach ‘Recherche’ 44 Year Old Single Malt Scotch Whisky, Speyside – Highlands $3,226
Lagavulin 37 Year Old Single Malt Scotch Whisky, Islay $3,153
Ardbeg Provenance Single Malt Scotch Whisky, Islay $3,137
Glenfiddich Private Vintage Single Malt Scotch Whisky, Speyside $3,095
Port Ellen 14th Release 35 Year Old Single Malt Scotch Whisky, Islay $3,023
Suntory The Yamazaki 25 Year Old Single Malt Whisky, Japan $2,986
Port Ellen 15th Release 32 Year Old Single Malt Scotch Whisky, Islay $2,965
The Macallan Anniversary Malt 25 Year Old Single Malt Scotch Whisky, Speyside – Highlands $2,962
Johnnie Walker Blue Label 200th Anniversary Blended Scotch Whisky, Scotland $2,927
The Macallan Masters of Photography Mario Testino Single Malt Scotch Whisky, Highlands $2,914
The Macallan Masters of Photography Annie Leibowitz 3 ‘The Bar’ Cask 7023 Single Malt Scotch Whisky, Highlands $2,747

 

BarnBuster

Virtually Unknown Member
stolen from someone off the internez, sorry for no attribution

The Nine Lives of One Bourbon Barrel

Once American whiskey distillers are finished with a barrel they’re sent around the globe for more boozy use.

The last place you might expect to discover a monument to American whiskey is in an overgrown field in the idyllic countryside of Speyside, Scotland.

But if you follow a path up a woody hill, overlooking the Glenrothes distillery, in a clearing you’ll find great pyramids of used American oak barrels.

The newest ones look like they could still hold whiskey, while the oldest, weather-beaten ones are losing their rusty hoops and the staves are turning into dust.

While this sight is surprising it’s not that unusual of a thing to find in Scotland. While every last drop of Scotch that is sold around the world needs to be distilled and aged in the country, what the whisky ages in usually comes from America.

Yes, a lot of Scotch is matured in old bourbon barrels and as a result there’s most likely some bourbon in your favorite drams.

The arrangement might seem odd at first, but it’s actually a perfectly balanced relationship. Bourbon (and also rye and wheat whiskies) can only be aged in a brand new oak barrel.

“Bourbon spits off a huge number of barrels they’re no longer interested in,” says Lew Bryson, former managing editor of the Whisky Advocate and author of Tasting Whiskey. “And Scotch is willing to take them.”

How many barrels are we talking about? Well, in 2014 there were more than 5.7 million barrels of bourbon aging in Kentucky alone and 1.3 million barrels were filled that year. And those robust figures don’t even take into account all the bourbon, Tennessee and rye whiskies aging outside of the Bluegrass State.

These casks, which are prized for their sweetness and vanilla notes, are then generally broken down, shrink wrapped and the majority are sent to Scotland but some also go to Mexico to be filled with tequila, to the Caribbean to be filled with rum and to Ireland and Canada to be filled with whiskey.

That’s not to mention all the breweries in America and Europe using the barrels to age a range of beers. Competition is so tight, brewers are “scrambling to find any barrel they can,” says Bryson. (Plus, there are companies like Bourbon Barrel Foods, which ages everything from vanilla extract and soy sauce to cocktail cherries in old barrels.)

“They literally go around the world,” says Chris Morris, the long-serving master distiller at Woodford Reserve and the chairman of the Kentucky Distillers’ Association. And they take with them a bit of whiskey, according to Morris, four to five percent of the alcohol in the barrel is soaked up by the wood.

This practice dates back decades to Depression-era America. In 1938, in an attempt to provide work for coopers and loggers the government mandated that bourbon could only be aged in a new barrel.

Morris is quick to point out that a number of brands already had this policy. “A good bourbon producer like Brown-Forman would never have reused a barrel even though it wasn’t required by law,” he says. Why? The more times the barrel is used, the less flavor it gives to a spirit and as result it would be hard to produce a consistent product.

The country was not only struggling to come out of the Depression but also dealing with adjusting to life after Prohibition. To address the pent-up demand, the whiskey industry furiously tried to ramp up production.

While the start of World War II halted the distillation of whiskey, brands continued to empty barrels of mature liquor.

As a result, after the war was over there was a huge surfeit of used barrels to be had. The Scotch and the Irish, who were also struggling to restart their whiskey industries, began buying American barrels.

“They find out that our bourbon barrels are wonderful and they become dependent on the US,” says Morris.

A real indicator of how the booze business is doing (and the overall economy for that matter) is the price of used bourbon barrels.

The higher the global demand for Irish, Canadian and Scottish whiskey as well as rum and tequila, the higher the price for used bourbon barrels. Now, according to Eddie Russell, Wild Turkey’s master distiller, a new barrel costs about $160 and used one is sold for between $60 and $70. About 15 years ago, when overall spirits consumption was lower the bourbon companies had a huge stockpile of barrels.

“We couldn’t give them away,” admits Morris. Brown-Forman, which in addition to Woodford also owns Jack Daniel’s, had to chip up thousands and thousands of barrels to sell for mulch.

At one point Wild Turkey was sitting on 30,000 empty barrels, which it couldn’t sell. Russell was having trouble even finding room to store them all.

Finally, a company bought them for a few dollars each to use them for flooring. It was a good thing because turning the barrels into flowerpots “was the only other option back in those days,” he says. “I don’t have any extra now.”
 
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