Seeds from F1s

OK so I have tried to "UseTheFuckingSearchFeature" but I cant UTFSF it dont work for me, it hates me & just wont cooperate. I keep getting a Database Error...Whatever, Anyhow I have a totally noob question and I been searching Google and doing research but figured one of you pros could answer me better in Laymens terms.

No matter how cool Mendels Pea experiment was I just cant absorb the differences in the breeding of plants. Here is my dumb but simple question. If I had a Autoflowering AK47/ Hindu Kush plant female and took a male AK47/Hindu kush let them make seeds it would produce F2 seeds right? And these F2 seed wont be like the originals or maybe they could be or maybe theyll result in many Phenos of either original parent right???
This is where I get lost because on many sites they say yes you should breed 2 F1s to get inbred traits etc but others say if you do youll get many phenos some similar to the original parents and some similar to the original F1...blah blah blah...

So is this because the first hybrid cross or parents werent stable? I am lost and wish for clarification because since I cant clone and grow full sized plants I wanted to do Autos again,... but I had a plan to get them and seed one bitch out so I wont have to buy seeds again and again and again...

But if I do this...I was wondering if I would lose traits or lose the autoflowering trait or WHAT would actually happen...Since they autoflower and die so fast I wouldnt be able to cross back to original parents...or clone them so how in the hell does this work in simple terms...

I dont want a science lesson just clarification, can I do this with crossed Autos and maintain offspring by letting 2 identical F1 hybrids make seeds? Isnt this inbreeding anyway which should "tighten" up their traits? See my Experiance is limited to dogs, if I inbreed 2 good APBTs that are brother and sister ill mostly get good inbred stock similar to both parents...later to outcross after 5 generations of inbreeding..to another line not related...the result of an outcross is usually 97% PERFECT good puppies with 50% good traits from BOTH bloodlines...but with these plants it is really confusing me...

Any clarification would be GREATLY appreciated...

its hard to tell whcih way the plants will go
best bet is pick parents out of the F1's that look close to the same

but i'd say for sure your gonna run into problems with the F2's it would be better to buy Autoflowering AK47 and Hindu Kush make your own

nothing to get confused about breeding two p1 s (as geneticly diff as possible) will make f1's f1's are usually a stable mix of both p1 traits this is a hybred.breeding f1 x f1 =f2. The f2 generation will make many phenos all with some of the orginal traits. you need to find out what your aks are if f1` or f2s. that will tell you the differences you can expect.anyway ak auto x ak auto= ak auto. some identical some diff

yeah, it sucks the search function doesn't work.

there's a bunch of stuff here that might be helpful

https://www.rollitup.org/seed-strain-reviews/126907-whats-f-1-hybrid.html

if you're asking if you breed two auto-flowering f1s then will the offspring be auto-flowering? i think the answer is almost certainly no, but i don't mess with auto-flowering strains, so my best advice to you is give it a try and let us all know how you get on.

ElBarto said:

yeah, it sucks the search function doesn't work.

there's a bunch of stuff here that might be helpful

https://www.rollitup.org/seed-strain-reviews/126907-whats-f-1-hybrid.html

if you're asking if you breed two auto-flowering f1s then will the offspring be auto-flowering? i think the answer is almost certainly no, but i don't mess with auto-flowering strains, so my best advice to you is give it a try and let us all know how you get on.

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Yeah your basically on the right path, I have been reading since i posted this...lol

POST less READ more is my motto...
So basically like in my dog breeding I have realised with 2 f1s bro and sister... if I breed them Ill get a lot of different phenos, some like the original grandparents some like either F1 parent or some totally new and not seen before...then in one interesting article they said if you take 2 of the new F2s and pick the ones most like the ones you want you can breed them and go from there...this is true with dogs to in my expericance, its called "tightening up"...basically removing unwanted genes and making it tighter like the original parents..I still am researching because in Dogs I can "SEE" how they act and see their temperment and intelligence before I breed...in plants there is a lot of guessing and a lot of breeding is based off phenotype only not actual behavior or quality...it may look like mom but has Dads "high" but plants dont "behave" much so it seems harder than in dogs...

I am assuming though if I get lucky and have 2 F1s with the same AA and AA traits they will produce more AA babies...but most likely this wont or maybe DONT happen with plants like with dogs...

Im bound by luck to be starting with an Aa and an AA and not even know it...Ill have to mix F2s until I find 2 that have the same Alleles or loci and then after so many generation of this I will stabilise and have a true breeder....or something like that....Well thats how im understanding it so far and I only asked this about Autoflowering strains because I was wondering how you could breed back to a mom when she only lives for several weeks and cant be cloned...sounds like Ill have to play around with it....
Also as mentioned by a poster just a sec ago..I think going with just AK47 or just with Hindu Kush would be better now because the cross of AK47/HINDU KUSH already has much more genetic diversity from the F0s....less genes is better in this situation IMO and I could in theory take an AK F1 and Hindu F1 and just make my own ak47/hindu F1s...or am I totally wrong here, will these be F2s??...

Any feedback will help me a ton, the link worked but had limited info and at first these autos were cool but I havent grown any of the F2 seeds yet,...if its gonna be a hassle to maintain quality Ill have to just get regular seeds and go to clones...

Basically what im getting from all this is if I take F1s and make F2 seeds they will have many more Phenos and then if I take the F2s I like the best and make more seed the resulting F3s will be better and more like the F1s...I dunno how long it takes to get stable where they all come out the same.... but it sure sounds interesting as hell....I also wonder if the autoflowering gene will get lost in the mix, I doubt it will since both originals had it and were stabilized to be 100% auto...Who knows more research will undoubtedly show me the way....

UPDATE= Been researching all day and learned a lot about PEas and Chinese Cabbage, not to mention Corn and Soybeans....But this probably the most relevent info I foud on stabilizing hybrids by breeding F2s and then F3s and so on....
An IBL (inbred line) is a genetically homogeneous strain that grows uniformly from seed.

A hybrid is a strain made up of two genetically unlike parents, IBL or hybrid.

When you cross two different IBL strains for the FIRST time, it is called the F1 generation. When you cross two of the same F1 hybrid (inbreed), it is called the F2 generation.

An IBL (inbred line) is a genetically homogeneous strain that grows uniformly from seed.

A hybrid is a strain made up of two genetically unlike parents, IBL or hybrid.

When you cross two different IBL strains for the FIRST time, it is called the F1 generation. When you cross two of the same F1 hybrid (inbreed), it is called the F2 generation.

The process of selective inbreeding must continue at least until the F4 to stabilize the recurrently selected traits. When you cross two specimens of an IBL variety, you get more of the same, because an IBL is homozygous, or true breeding for particular traits.

So it seems I was kinda on the right track....I also discovered if you take F2s and look for desired phenos and inbreed for 4 generations or more youll essentially tighten up these traits and stabilize the hybrid into basically its own homogeneous "strain"...so basically not stabilizing these Autos is just a scam to keep you buying seed because from their release it could have been done within 40-50 weeks which is ample time for 5 Auto generations to stabilize popular hybrids....maybe Ill just have to play around with them to see what I get after a year of mixing them up to see if I can stabilize any good phenos...

dude if your ak's are true f1's and you breed them you most certainly will find some phenos with the recessive autoflower traits.100 % will.you may have to grow out 1000 plants but you will get her. then backcross to the p1 father and viola autoflower seeds.Hope this helps.

bonghits4all said:

dude if your ak's are true f1's and you breed them you most certainly will find some phenos with the recessive autoflower traits.100 % will.you may have to grow out 1000 plants but you will get her. then backcross to the p1 father and viola autoflower seeds.Hope this helps.

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The Auto flower trait isnt recessive it is dominant...Recessive we dont see, dominant we do...Actually I am less worried about losing the autoflower trait as I am about losing other phenos like potency and growth parameters...according to some breeders online...and I even called a botany professor guy at Iowa State(big time Ag school)... they both say after being stabilized the Autoflowering gene in plants is hard to lose ... I guess( the way I understood him/them) was that they have to inbreed the first F1(lowryder) they ever made for 5 gens or so until the auto gene from the ruderalis is on enough alleles/loci to be dominant in both P1s who made the F1 hybrid I got... or if they just crossed a stable true breeder with an auto and made a random F1 theyd only produce RANDOM F1s.... that werent 100% auto some would just be small regular plants...I dunno know im no genetic professor here...

I was more concerned with getting F2 seeds and growing them and having plants that more resemble either the AK47 parent or Hindu Kush parent...I am working with that paticular hybrid....

but I guess according to others if I take the best of those F2s and inbreed 4-6 generations Ill stabilize the hybrid myself and have basically a stable true breeder that is hybrid...who knows im still researching it and find it interesting and fascinating...thanks for all the help.

What i ment was in your cross of true f1's the autoflower trait becomes recessive.but is not lost.And yes they sometimes go up to f10 then backcross to stabalize traits.If you grow out your f2 seeds you will see traits from the whole gene pool in many different phenotypes you may even see a autoflower.Any way your info is correct. and you are on the right track.I like you am no expert but am becoming more and more intrigued with the breeding aspect of these remarkable plants.

misterdogman said:

I was more concerned with getting F2 seeds and growing them and having plants that more resemble either the AK47 parent or Hindu Kush parent...I am working with that paticular hybrid...

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Why not just buy some AK47 or Hindu Kush seeds? They're not that hard to find.

i think he's intrested in breeding thats why.

bonghits4all said:

i think he's intrested in breeding thats why.

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Well, if that's the case, then a/f strains is definitely NOT the way to go.

bonghits4all said:

i think he's intrested in breeding thats why.

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Thanks for clarifying that BH4ALL
....and Id like someone to tell all the people like El Barto...the PEOPLE who bred and tried new breedings on all the strains we smoke today CREATED what we have...it came from asking these questions and trying new things...
if it wasnt for people who wonder like me and others with curiosity we would still ALL be smoking the swag stress weed our parents grew up on...So whether AF or oldskool or some new stuff breeding and pushing limits is the open minded outlook....never say something is not the way to go because someone else could say that about your own genetics and say that breeding you was a mistake....and that would just be disrespectful...

I am wondering because I dont want to fork over $ for seeds and i dont want to clone...I want to experiment...

and so did all those dutch guys who made all the smoke we got now...

Nice game-plan misterdogman.. As far as how long it will take, and how tricky selection is depends on the particular traits you wish to stabilize.. If you try for too many, you will likely lose them all unless you have unlimited breeding resources..
'True-breeding', and 'breeding true within a localized gene pool' are two very different things when it comes to hybridizing..
As for your particular confusion, crossing 2 random F1's will keep the genotypes in the population stable as per the "Harvey-Weinberg equilibrium", and thus will keep the statistical 'expression of phenotypes' stable.. Basically this means that you're naturally creating offspring with no propensity to alter the population over time, which is not 'selective' breeding..
See unless you have a plan to catalog the genotypes through observation of the phenotypes, then you are highly unlikely to obtain homozygosity for your desired traits (which is done through test back-crossing to the known genotype of the original parent)..
You really need to run through the punnet squares.. Understanding this will help with expectation..
Take your statement about the dominance of the auto trait.. In the simplest model where a single genetic marker is responsible for the trait as a whole you could have 4 genotype possibilities (AA Aa aA aa).. Within an inbred line, AA, and aa will 'likely' breed true.. Only
AA will 'likely' breed true through a hybridization, and Aa/aA are the result of yet another generation of heterozygous breeding..
Hopefully there is no autoflower heterozygousity within the reputable strain, but if the auto trait was the result of making aa homozygous, then it will likely be lost when hybridized with something other than its own gene pool..
Lastly, there really isn't an ABSOLUTE dominant, or recessive condition when you consider cannibis as a whole.. Dominance is a sliding scale.. Consider what would happen if you took two true-breeding strains and crossed them.. Real true breeding is all about the 'homozygous dominant' genotypes producing homozygous phenotypes, but what happens if you cross two plants both with conflicting homozygous dominant (or both with homozygous recessive genotypes for that matter)?? These traits will have to figure it out between themselves which trait is 'more dominant', or decide upon some codominance scheme (like red flower + blue flower = purple flower)..
Lastly, another possibility exists where many genetic markers are combined to for a trait.. When this is the case, its either much tougher to achieve a true breeding state, or you end up with a falsely true breeding trait that seems true breeding except for rare situations where recessive combinations still exist (analogous to the 25% aa comination, but much rarer.. Imagine a trait that only gets expressed if aabbccddeeffgghhiijj occurs.. There is roughly a 1:1000000 chance that that particular genotype would occur with absolutely no capital letters, so if a breeder was faced with that kind of situation it would be virtually impossible to spot the condition with any less than a few hundred square miles of breeding space.. Luckily traits are predominantly simpler than that though..

what about this example? would like to here some opinions.
what if you start with 20 auto flower beans of 2 different strains. say 10 of each.
you grow 5 of each strain and breed them. now you have an f1 of the 2 strains crossed.
you cant save a mother to cross back to, but what if you grew out some of the f1's you created and grow out some of the original beans you started with and cross some of the f1's back with some of the originals.
what would you get?

The original true-breeding nature of the strains will determine just how unsuccessful that method would be.. If there is trait heterozygousity involved where it matters to you, then its a waste of time, but if your parents are equally homozygous then the F1's will carry that homozygousity and have the same genotype and phenotype of the parents.. With 2 strains, success is far FAR less than likely since the parents will differ.. You want to pick 2 F1's that carry the same genotype to call your P1's.. Finding these can be tricky though..
Essentially the goal you describe requires you to get ultra lucky, and create a true breeding strain in a single generation.. Since this is a REALLY unlikely scenario, parents are used to gather info through back-crossing..
Think of it like a logic puzzle where you harvest 'clues about the genotypes' from the parents.. Without parents to provide these clues continually you're essentially going on a scavenger hunt with no more info than "The next clue is somewhere on earth.."..

born2killspam said:

The original true-breeding nature of the strains will determine just how unsuccessful that method would be.. If there is trait heterozygousity involved where it matters to you, then its a waste of time, but if your parents are equally homozygous then the F1's will carry that homozygousity and have the same genotype and phenotype of the parents.. With 2 strains, success is far FAR less than likely since the parents will differ.. You want to pick 2 F1's that carry the same genotype to call your P1's.. Finding these can be tricky though..
Essentially the goal you describe requires you to get ultra lucky, and create a true breeding strain in a single generation.. Since this is a REALLY unlikely scenario, parents are used to gather info through back-crossing..
Think of it like a logic puzzle where you harvest 'clues about the genotypes' from the parents.. Without parents to provide these clues continually you're essentially going on a scavenger hunt with no more info than "The next clue is somewhere on earth.."..

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it can be fun trying even just to see what you get. even just crossing some f1's on a couple of bud sites, labeling everything, getting something decent out of it and having a couple hundred beans sounds like fun to me.
worth a try,live and learn.

Seed production isn't rocket science at all.. 'Strain production' is.. Of course you can get great seeds by crossing F1's.. They'd even likely have more vigor than a back-crossed line, but you won't have a clue what to expect.. If you like variety, and don't require homogeneity for efficient indoor growing then there is absolutely no problem.. If you want you could even pretend that your goal was heterozygousity and call your *?strain?* 'craps shooter'..

misterdogman said:

Thanks for clarifying that BH4ALL
....and Id like someone to tell all the people like El Barto...the PEOPLE who bred and tried new breedings on all the strains we smoke today CREATED what we have...it came from asking these questions and trying new things...
if it wasnt for people who wonder like me and others with curiosity we would still ALL be smoking the swag stress weed our parents grew up on...So whether AF or oldskool or some new stuff breeding and pushing limits is the open minded outlook....never say something is not the way to go because someone else could say that about your own genetics and say that breeding you was a mistake....and that would just be disrespectful...

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A little over sensitive, aren't we?

My point is that if you're interested in experimenting with breeding, then imaybe you should think about starting with strains you can clone. But you go right ahead and please keep us posted on your progress.

Wih all due respect,

El Barto

Whats the deal with re-vegging autos? And is everyone jumping on the bus thatsays there is no way to clone them without even experimenting? You don't need really vigorous results, you should be able to stretch parents to the next generation atleast with some effort.. I've kept cuttings in the fridge for months (I imagine in a stasis of sorts), and pollen is viable for a couple generations..

When you cross 2 f1's what does "stable" mean? an average mix of the parent traits through all plants and un stable would be some plants would lean towards the mother or father traits more insted of being mixed?