So I killed a fly..

Beefbisquit

Well-Known Member
It does seems to be a problem of equivocation: MP is using evolve in the biological sense, to develop by evolutionary processes, and you seem to be using it in a casual conversational manner, i.e. to develop of achieve gradually, to evolve one's own sense of style, etc.. When it comes to consciousness evolving, it seems you could use your definition but not the technical, biological definition. Consciousness cannot be the prime mover for evolution in the biological definition, as the first living things (bacteria) are not conscious and had no will (beside the fact that evolution by natural selection happens regardless of anyone's will). I'm not even sure consciousness is the prime mover for evolution in your sense of the word, since we become aware of our decisions after they are formed, so our consciousness is not the force making our decisions...
Great explanation, TD... A bottle of Pinot Grigio and about a quarter of bud into me, and that was still easy to read and very succinct.

EDIT:
  • You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to tyler.durden again.

Fucker... ;)
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
Great explanation, TD... A bottle of Pinot Grigio and about a quarter of bud into me, and that was still easy to read and very succinct.

EDIT:
  • You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to tyler.durden again.

Fucker... ;)
How should I have modified my posts to achieve a similar clarity? cn
 

NietzscheKeen

Well-Known Member
Imo, there's a huge difference between conscious and non-conscious life; the closer living things are to consciousness, the less likely I am to kill it if it interferes with my life. We kill billions of bacteria and viruses every time we wash our hands and brush our teeth, and I'm not sure even buddhists regret this. Killing vermin like insects and rodents doesn't phase me, any living thing I find in my home I didn't invite in is getting whacked with extreme prejudice. When my kid was younger, he used to save bugs and bring them outside, as he was influenced by his mom's all-life-is-precious crap. I remember him begging me not to kill a little yellowish spider that I found at my place, so I didn't. This fucking thing was pregnant and soon there were hundreds of these fuckers everywhere! They were amazing stupid, too; I found them floating in the toilet and sink, and they'd routinely drop right in front of your face on a strand of web as if to say, 'what's up?' One apparently bit my son on the face while he was sleeping, and he got over his shit and started smushing them left and right. Not all life is precious, it doesn't phase me to indiscriminately kill evolved life all the way up to about cats (including cheating whores and dudes that look at me funny) ;)
Who is to say that we are conscious? We are merely organic matter just like a tree or a rock, etc. Maybe our consciousness is an illusion. I don't think any life has a RIGHT to exist, but I do feel that some life forms are more majestic than others.
I hate this time of year because I see all the turtles trying to cross the road and I know I can't save them all.

Evolution just happens. Actually evolution doesn't just happen, genetic differences from parent to offspring just happen; on a long enough timeline we call this evolution. Nothing DRIVES evolution, but nature and the environment determine what variations survive. So I guess you could say that the environment directs evolution, but nothing drives it. Plus there is no end goal or necessary destination... Some people say that humans are the highest animal, but that doesn't mean that all animals will evolve into humans and that certainly doesn't mean that humans are the last stage in this current branch of evolution.
 

eye exaggerate

Well-Known Member
It does seems to be a problem of equivocation: MP is using evolve in the biological sense, to develop by evolutionary processes, and you seem to be using it in a casual conversational manner, i.e. to develop of achieve gradually, to evolve one's own sense of style, etc.. When it comes to consciousness evolving, it seems you could use your definition but not the technical, biological definition. Consciousness cannot be the prime mover for evolution in the biological definition, as the first living things (bacteria) are not conscious and had no will (beside the fact that evolution by natural selection happens regardless of anyone's will). I'm not even sure consciousness is the prime mover for evolution in your sense of the word, since we become aware of our decisions after they are formed, so our consciousness is not the force making our decisions...

...ok, you asked for it! :lol:

Tyler is standing beside a very appealing woman at a museum. He has yet to see her. Tyler has not yet achieved any form of contact with the woman. Now, Tyler looks and is aware of her, engages in conversation with her that leads to the creating of experience between the two. They've evolved from not having had the experience to having had the experience! :)
 

Beefbisquit

Well-Known Member
How should I have modified my posts to achieve a similar clarity? cn
T.D. just has his own way of nailing shit together in his own fashion. It's very enjoyable to read! Not saying you don't make great points, bear! T.D. just has a consistant fashion of saying a lot with as little as possible, an attribute I also commonly pin to M.P. and Heis...
 

Beefbisquit

Well-Known Member
...ok, you asked for it! :lol:

Tyler is standing beside a very appealing woman at a museum. He has yet to see her. Tyler has not yet achieved any form of contact with the woman. Now, Tyler looks and is aware of her, engages in conversation with her that leads to the creating of experience between the two. They've evolved from not having had the experience to having had the experience! :)
They have not evolved. They have experienced new things.

Evolution requires the passage of traits from a parent to offspring. Subjective experiences are not hereditary. Now, if the reason he went over and talked to her in the first place was because of an enlarged part of the brain correlating to courtship, and he passed the trait of having an enlarged part of the brain onto his son/daughter, THAT would be evolution.

You are describing personal growth, NOT evolution.
 

eye exaggerate

Well-Known Member
They have not evolved. They have experienced new things.

Evolution requires the passage of traits from a parent to offspring. Subjective experiences are not hereditary. Now, if the reason he went over and talked to her in the first place was because of an enlarged part of the brain correlating to courtship, and he passed the trait of having an enlarged part of the brain onto his son/daughter, THAT would be evolution.

You are describing personal growth, NOT evolution.
...we've established that I am not talking biological evolution other than in the sense of 'precursor to' growth. The brain itself does not do the growing, but the consciousness that is using that brain does.
 

NietzscheKeen

Well-Known Member
...ok, you asked for it! :lol:

Tyler is standing beside a very appealing woman at a museum. He has yet to see her. Tyler has not yet achieved any form of contact with the woman. Now, Tyler looks and is aware of her, engages in conversation with her that leads to the creating of experience between the two. They've evolved from not having had the experience to having had the experience! :)
Jesus... I need a drink.
 

Beefbisquit

Well-Known Member
...we've established that I am not talking biological evolution other than in the sense of 'precursor to' growth. The brain itself does not do the growing, but the consciousness that is using that brain does.
The 'consciousness that is using the brain' is a predominantly rejected idea that is in direct conflict with what we know about the brain.

I would ask you to provide evidence for your statement before proceeding further.

If you would like to talk about personal growth, in the sense of experiencing new things, we can do that, but I refuse to use terminology reserved for evolution.
 

tyler.durden

Well-Known Member
...ok, you asked for it! :lol:

Tyler is standing beside a very appealing woman at a museum. He has yet to see her. Tyler has not yet achieved any form of contact with the woman. Now, Tyler looks and is aware of her, engages in conversation with her that leads to the creating of experience between the two. They've evolved from not having had the experience to having had the experience! :)
Yeah :) Like BB stated, evolved is a confusing term in this context. In the last sentence, I'd replace the word evolve with progressed at best, maybe simply went...
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
T.D. just has his own way of nailing shit together in his own fashion. It's very enjoyable to read! Not saying you don't make great points, bear! T.D. just has a consistant fashion of saying a lot with as little as possible, an attribute I also commonly pin to M.P. and Heis...
I am deflated. cn

 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
Yeah :) Like BB stated, evolved is a confusing term in this context. In the last sentence, I'd replace the word evolve with progressed at best, maybe simply went...
Interestingly the military use "evolve" similarly ... to denote a progression of events in time.

That brings us to the hard nut at the core of the metaphysics of consciousness. What is time? cn

[video=youtube;Nh7UgAprdpM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nh7UgAprdpM[/video]
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
The real irony there is - I strive for succinction. However sometimes the complexity or ambiguity of the topic compels me to ... cn

 
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