Socialized Healthcare

ginjawarrior

Well-Known Member
Your post indicates you are very much in favor of having others subsidize your health care. Subsidizing somebody voluntarily is a good thing, it's called charity. Subsidizing somebody involuntarily is a bad thing, words like theft and slavery come to mind.

Asking government to initiate force on your behalf doesn't seem very nice. Would you steal from your neighbor? If not, why have you asked the government to do it for you?
its cool man my neighbor and i have it all sorted the government steals from him to give to me and it also steals from me to give to him ask about it seems like everyone in my country has got the same agreement with their neighbors

my government also forces me to pay much much less than your country for my healthcare
it forces us as a nation to live longer than your country
it forces us to have the ability to have care even if we're ill for a long time
it forces us to beable to keep houses and possesions rather than have to sell to keep care
it forces everyone to be treated with as much care without caring how poor they are..

it allows you to get private health care if your not happy with system
its a terribly harsh and nasty government my one...
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
Canada is on the road to recovery not because your healthcare is better, or your politicians are more benevolent, but because you have many natural resources that you sell.
 

ginjawarrior

Well-Known Member
Canada is on the road to recovery not because your healthcare is better, or your politicians are more benevolent, but because you have many natural resources that you sell.
whos talking about canada being on the road to recovery? this is purely about healthcare is it not?
 

abe23

Active Member
^wtf are you talking about, NoD. America doesn't have natural resources that we exploit and sell? Russia, Zambia, the Congo etc. are also very good at selling their natural resources...

Better banking regulation would be a good starting point if you're going to make comparisons. Canada has 5 nationwide banks, if I'm not mistaken, but there wasn't any "too big to fail" issue because they weren't doing ridiculous shit with people's mortgages like ours did.
 

Merowe

Well-Known Member
Your post indicates you are very much in favor of having others subsidize your health care. Subsidizing somebody voluntarily is a good thing, it's called charity. Subsidizing somebody involuntarily is a bad thing, words like theft and slavery come to mind.

Asking government to initiate force on your behalf doesn't seem very nice. Would you steal from your neighbor? If not, why have you asked the government to do it for you?
My post indicates no such thing, what a silly construction to put upon it. I'm interested in delivering a necessary service to a given population with the greatest economy and efficiency. If you're so blinded by ideology you'd defend a system that provides the same service - FOR TWICE THE COST - and completely fails the needs of some 40 million of your fellow citizens, I can't wait to hear your thoughts on evolution.

Likewise for terms like 'theft', 'slavery' and 'force' - what the devil are you on about? Do you live in society, with other human beings, or don't you? If you do, then both benefits and responsibilities attach to that - such as paying taxes towards the common good. If you don't, then go live in the forest - and leave your language by the door on your way out, since that's another social gift you use without paying for.

Likewise, I wouldn't steal from my neighbour, but I'd probably work together with him to maintain the road that serves both of us. You'd have two roads, I suppose?
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
My post indicates no such thing, what a silly construction to put upon it. I'm interested in delivering a necessary service to a given population with the greatest economy and efficiency. If you're so blinded by ideology you'd defend a system that provides the same service - FOR TWICE THE COST - and completely fails the needs of some 40 million of your fellow citizens, I can't wait to hear your thoughts on evolution.

Likewise for terms like 'theft', 'slavery' and 'force' - what the devil are you on about? Do you live in society, with other human beings, or don't you? If you do, then both benefits and responsibilities attach to that - such as paying taxes towards the common good. If you don't, then go live in the forest - and leave your language by the door on your way out, since that's another social gift you use without paying for.

Likewise, I wouldn't steal from my neighbour, but I'd probably work together with him to maintain the road that serves both of us. You'd have two roads, I suppose?
Sorry if I misconstrued your previous post, but I think we differ in our views. I don't think I'm blinded by my "ideology", I'm very aware of the pitfalls of using force to try to achieve a "good". I believe your point of view relies on rationalization even though it may be driven by self riteous good intentions.

My thoughts on evolution? I have captured a Gigantopithecus and keep him locked in my basement, "for his own good". I provide him "free" medical care, but I make him uproot trees and build my roads with his massive 9 foot body because well, it's for his own good.
Although he's made a pass or two at me, I've declined his advances. I'm presently looking for a large hairy Neanderthal type woman to keep him occupied, perhaps you can assist me in finding him a mate? Hey, you asked.

Theft is the unauthorized taking of another persons, property, labor or services. Slavery is when the fruit of a persons labor is not controlled by that person and they are directed to perform certain tasks against their will. Force is what the government uses to ensure that you comply with their edicts, whether the edict makes sense or not.

The "common good" is a term people sometimes use to rationalize making other people comply with their idea of what is best for them. For instance some prohibitionists believe the "common good" is achieved by putting pot smokers in jail. I prefer to let individuals decide what they can do with their own body. I extend that to their own life, labor and property too.

Yes I live in a society with other people. I interact with them on a voluntary basis, my personal relationships are good, there is a good deal of mutual respect. At the risk of sounding egotistical, I'm kind of a well liked guy, courteous and helpful. From time to time I do live in the forest, by my own choice of course.

Working together when it is done on a consensual basis is a good thing. Making somebody do otherwise, to work against their will or to purchase something against their will or to labor for the benefit of another against their will , what are those things?

Perhaps you wouldn't steal from your neighbor. You would rather have the "officials" do it for you. Employing somebody else to take something from another...doesn't change the fact that theft has occurred.

P.S. - I don't really have a Gigantopithecus in my basement, they're extinct.
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
its cool man my neighbor and i have it all sorted the government steals from him to give to me and it also steals from me to give to him ask about it seems like everyone in my country has got the same agreement with their neighbors

my government also forces me to pay much much less than your country for my healthcare
it forces us as a nation to live longer than your country
it forces us to have the ability to have care even if we're ill for a long time
it forces us to beable to keep houses and possesions rather than have to sell to keep care
it forces everyone to be treated with as much care without caring how poor they are..

it allows you to get private health care if your not happy with system
its a terribly harsh and nasty government my one...
A well fed slave is still a slave isn't he?
 

Winter Woman

Well-Known Member
Your system and Englands must not work all that well.

At first it was illegal to have private insurance now you can have it. Why? Because your citizenry didn't like what the government dictated.

You couldn't have private hospitals back then, now you do. Why? Because people weren't being treated in a timely fashion or with good quality care.

Doctors had to work for the government healthcare and they were leaving the country. Why? Because they weren't allowed to practice medicine as they saw fit. Now they are staying and coming back because they can be free to practice medicine how they see fit and work for themselves again.

It is obvious that it didn't work and the citizens wanted better and self-directed care. That is why you now have a true choice. But those that opt out still have to pay for private insurance and for the people who are willing to be government lemmings.

My aunt lives in London, Ont. she is 86 years old, she fell and hurt her back. Her doctor told her that she didn't need an x-ray and told her she was sore because she was old. More than a month later she got an x-ray, she had a cracked vertbrate. He then ordered an MRI and that took 3 months before she got that. It shows she had a ruptured disk!!! She was in pain for over 4 months before they started to treat her.

Plus, don't get breast cancer in Toronto. From the time of first diagnosis to first treatment was about 6 months. I think you need to read your own newspapers and have an open mind to how things really are.

its cool man my neighbor and i have it all sorted the government steals from him to give to me and it also steals from me to give to him ask about it seems like everyone in my country has got the same agreement with their neighbors

my government also forces me to pay much much less than your country for my healthcare
it forces us as a nation to live longer than your country
it forces us to have the ability to have care even if we're ill for a long time
it forces us to beable to keep houses and possesions rather than have to sell to keep care
it forces everyone to be treated with as much care without caring how poor they are..

it allows you to get private health care if your not happy with system
its a terribly harsh and nasty government my one...
 

Merowe

Well-Known Member
Your system and Englands must not work all that well.

At first it was illegal to have private insurance now you can have it. Why? Because your citizenry didn't like what the government dictated.

You couldn't have private hospitals back then, now you do. Why? Because people weren't being treated in a timely fashion or with good quality care.

Doctors had to work for the government healthcare and they were leaving the country. Why? Because they weren't allowed to practice medicine as they saw fit. Now they are staying and coming back because they can be free to practice medicine how they see fit and work for themselves again.

It is obvious that it didn't work and the citizens wanted better and self-directed care. That is why you now have a true choice. But those that opt out still have to pay for private insurance and for the people who are willing to be government lemmings.

My aunt lives in London, Ont. she is 86 years old, she fell and hurt her back. Her doctor told her that she didn't need an x-ray and told her she was sore because she was old. More than a month later she got an x-ray, she had a cracked vertbrate. He then ordered an MRI and that took 3 months before she got that. It shows she had a ruptured disk!!! She was in pain for over 4 months before they started to treat her.

Plus, don't get breast cancer in Toronto. From the time of first diagnosis to first treatment was about 6 months. I think you need to read your own newspapers and have an open mind to how things really are.
My post was pretty clear. The Canadian system delivers the same quality of care as the American, for half the cost. You can judge for yourself what that says about how well the system works. I'm not saying it does it better, or that it is perfect, or that there aren't sometimes waiting lists, in some parts of the country, for some procedures. None of the problems you cite are due to the funding model. Your aunt's Canadian GP made a poor diagnosis (my sympathies!), but so what? Private doctors are infallible? Guess you don't watch 'House' much. A couple of anecdotal reports don't invalidate my points, I'm sure I can find some horror stories from the American system.

The push to reprivatize elements of the health care system comes from business interests and their allies in our rightwing dumb-as-a-sack-of-hammers governments who like to sell Crown corporations to their rich buddies. The Canadian population has consistently for decades voted against privatization, google will support the point comprehensively.

Some doctors did indeed emigrate south - the ones who got into medicine to get rich. That's fine, we get stuck with those who are just interested in practicing good medicine and keeping the population healthy. Which, as I've said, they seem to do as good a job at as your lot. Did I mention they do it for HALF THE PRICE? An important point which I'm guessing, you naysayers will continue to avoid coz it, like, completely destroys your argument.

Also, I can't believe phrases like 'government lemmings' - as opposed to what, paying TWICE AS MUCH to be a 'corporate lemming'? Whatever. Did I mention the Canadian system delivers THE SAME QUALITY OF CARE for HALF THE PRICE?

I lived in Toronto for twenty years but I don't have breasts. If you care to demonstrate that that scarily boring city has a higher breast cancer mortality rate than a similar American city, bring it on.

And once again, in case you missed it the first few times,

SAME QUALITY OF CARE.

HALF THE PRICE.
 

Merowe

Well-Known Member
Sorry if I misconstrued your previous post, but I think we differ in our views. I don't think I'm blinded by my "ideology", I'm very aware of the pitfalls of using force to try to achieve a "good". I believe your point of view relies on rationalization even though it may be driven by self riteous good intentions.

My thoughts on evolution? I have captured a Gigantopithecus and keep him locked in my basement, "for his own good". I provide him "free" medical care, but I make him uproot trees and build my roads with his massive 9 foot body because well, it's for his own good.
Although he's made a pass or two at me, I've declined his advances. I'm presently looking for a large hairy Neanderthal type woman to keep him occupied, perhaps you can assist me in finding him a mate? Hey, you asked.

Theft is the unauthorized taking of another persons, property, labor or services. Slavery is when the fruit of a persons labor is not controlled by that person and they are directed to perform certain tasks against their will. Force is what the government uses to ensure that you comply with their edicts, whether the edict makes sense or not.

The "common good" is a term people sometimes use to rationalize making other people comply with their idea of what is best for them. For instance some prohibitionists believe the "common good" is achieved by putting pot smokers in jail. I prefer to let individuals decide what they can do with their own body. I extend that to their own life, labor and property too.

Yes I live in a society with other people. I interact with them on a voluntary basis, my personal relationships are good, there is a good deal of mutual respect. At the risk of sounding egotistical, I'm kind of a well liked guy, courteous and helpful. From time to time I do live in the forest, by my own choice of course.

Working together when it is done on a consensual basis is a good thing. Making somebody do otherwise, to work against their will or to purchase something against their will or to labor for the benefit of another against their will , what are those things?

Perhaps you wouldn't steal from your neighbor. You would rather have the "officials" do it for you. Employing somebody else to take something from another...doesn't change the fact that theft has occurred.

P.S. - I don't really have a Gigantopithecus in my basement, they're extinct.
Heh - yeah, I figured you were joking on the Gigantopithecus thing.

There is NO WAY you could fit one in the basement.

I agree with your definition of theft, I just don't think it applies here. Taxes and other social obligations are freely undertaken, if sometimes grudgingly. If you don't want to pay them, fine, but you don't get to play with the others - in society - who all do. Move to Liechenstein or something, I think they maybe don't have income tax there. Start your own taxless society - or move to any of a dozen failed states around the planet - and see how that's working out for other folks.

Likewise your road accident of a definition of the 'common good' - it has nothing to do with rationalizing anything, it simply recognizes a fundamental human trait, our social nature. Its in our DNA, we live and work collaboratively, in groups. That's partly why we have the big brains, to handle the social traffic and all the information other humans share with us, like where to find water and what kind of bugs are good to eat. Like how to communicate, with speech. That's a tool created for the common good.

I think you're maybe setting up a false dichotomy here?
 

Winter Woman

Well-Known Member
My post was pretty clear. The Canadian system delivers the same quality of care as the American, for half the cost. You can judge for yourself what that says about how well the system works. I'm not saying it does it better, or that it is perfect, or that there aren't sometimes waiting lists, in some parts of the country, for some procedures. None of the problems you cite are due to the funding model. Your aunt's Canadian GP made a poor diagnosis (my sympathies!), but so what? Private doctors are infallible? Guess you don't watch 'House' much. A couple of anecdotal reports don't invalidate my points, I'm sure I can find some horror stories from the American system.

The push to reprivatize elements of the health care system comes from business interests and their allies in our rightwing dumb-as-a-sack-of-hammers governments who like to sell Crown corporations to their rich buddies. The Canadian population has consistently for decades voted against privatization, google will support the point comprehensively.

Some doctors did indeed emigrate south - the ones who got into medicine to get rich. That's fine, we get stuck with those who are just interested in practicing good medicine and keeping the population healthy. Which, as I've said, they seem to do as good a job at as your lot. Did I mention they do it for HALF THE PRICE? An important point which I'm guessing, you naysayers will continue to avoid coz it, like, completely destroys your argument.

Also, I can't believe phrases like 'government lemmings' - as opposed to what, paying TWICE AS MUCH to be a 'corporate lemming'? Whatever. Did I mention the Canadian system delivers THE SAME QUALITY OF CARE for HALF THE PRICE?

I lived in Toronto for twenty years but I don't have breasts. If you care to demonstrate that that scarily boring city has a higher breast cancer mortality rate than a similar American city, bring it on.

And once again, in case you missed it the first few times,

SAME QUALITY OF CARE.

HALF THE PRICE.
Half the price? I don't think so. You pay a much higher tax rate of 48.5% fed/provincial !!! Plus, a National Sales Tax/VAT Rate 5/13%!! I think this supports my opinion that you are paying very dearly for it.

Guess what??? IT ISN'T THE SAME QUALITY CARE FOR HALF THE PRICE.

Hey did I mention you pay a higher tax rate for the superb care your are getting? And guess what? it isn't half the price. BTW, what is a Harmonised Sales Tax? That one has me puzzled.

I don't want you to feel that I think Canada sucks, it doesn't. I enjoy skiing there (Blue Mountain) and I enjoy fishing in Quebec. We just have a difference of opinion.
 

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
Got to love wiki.

Comparison of the health care systems in Canada and the United States are often made by government, public health and public policy analysts.[1][2][3][4] The two countries had similar health care systems before Canada reformed its system in the 1960s and 1970s. The United States spends much more money on health care than Canada, on both a per-capita basis and as a percentage of GDP.[5] In 2006, per-capita spending for health care in Canada was US$3,678; in the U.S., US$6,714. The U.S. spent 15.3% of GDP on health care in that year; Canada spent 10.0%.[5] In 2006, 70% of health care spending in Canada was financed by government, versus 46% in the United States. Total government spending per capita in the U.S. on health care was 23% higher than Canadian government spending, and U.S. government expenditure on health care was just under 83% of total Canadian spending (public and private) though these statistics don't take in to account population differences.[6]

Studies have come to different conclusions about the result of this disparity in spending. A 2007 review of all studies comparing health outcomes in Canada and the US in a Canadian peer-reviewed medical journal found that "health outcomes may be superior in patients cared for in Canada versus the United States, but differences are not consistent."[7] Life expectancy is longer in Canada, and its infant mortality rate is lower than that of the U.S., but there is debate about the underlying causes of these differences. One commonly-cited comparison, the 2000 World Health Organization's ratings of "overall health service performance", which used a "composite measure of achievement in the level of health, the distribution of health, the level of responsiveness and fairness of financial contribution", ranked Canada 30th and the U.S. 37th among 191 member nations. This study rated the US "responsiveness", or quality of service for individuals receiving treatment, as 1st, compared with 7th for Canada. However, the average life expectancy for Canadians was 80.34 years compared with 78.6 years for residents of the U.S.[8]
May want to google key words before you combine that many L's with O's.
 

Winter Woman

Well-Known Member
Well, that makes sense when the citizens of the US are paying for the healthcare of 12-15 million illegals. Let's check with Wiki. The illegal immigrant population of the United States in 2008 was estimated by the Center for Immigration Studies to be about 11 million people, down from 12.5 million people in 2007.[2] Other estimates range from 7 to 20 million.[3]

How many illegals does Canada have? Wait, let's ask Wiki. There is no credible information available on illegal immigration in Canada. Estimates of illegal immigrants range between 35,000 and 120,000.[15]

Add say about 12 million non-paying healthcare users to those Canadian numbers and get back to me.

Actually, I really don't trust Wiki that much.


Got to love wiki.


May want to google key words before you combine that many L's with O's.
 

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
It's also a shame we don't make the illegal immigrants citizens so they could be paying their way then eh?

But here's the math, per capital is what we pay double the candians right?

So for a very similar level of care and half the amount paid out means we are really overpaying and this is the right time for the government to step in and force feed a more efficient system.

That 11 million illegal immigrants only represent 3% of the population right? If you want to think about the cost adjustment it's only p,us/minus three percent, which does not make up for the 50% we pay more per capital.

Wiki you'll find does connect most the key words and if you get into the habit of double checking what your saying is accurate you'll find it to be your best friend when you put your opinion out there. I would always double check with more credible resources, but still a good place to double check what your typing isn't crap.

I'd rather have more information when I form my opinions than less.
 

trailerparkboy

Well-Known Member
Half the price? I don't think so. You pay a much higher tax rate of 48.5% fed/provincial !!! Plus, a National Sales Tax/VAT Rate 5/13%!! I think this supports my opinion that you are paying very dearly for it.

Guess what??? IT ISN'T THE SAME QUALITY CARE FOR HALF THE PRICE.

Hey did I mention you pay a higher tax rate for the superb care your are getting? And guess what? it isn't half the price. BTW, what is a Harmonised Sales Tax? That one has me puzzled.

I don't want you to feel that I think Canada sucks, it doesn't. I enjoy skiing there (Blue Mountain) and I enjoy fishing in Quebec. We just have a difference of opinion.
i dont know anyone who pays 48.5% in taxes i made about 80k last yr and had a total of 10k taken of my pay cheques for the year and i get about 1k back at tax time unless i put money into a retirement plan which i can right off some of put in 13k last year got 7 back at tax time i still think are taxes are to high but nowhere near 48.5% unless maybe your a MULTI millionaire i dont know any but i know a few millionaires and they dont pay that much either
 

Babs34

Well-Known Member
Government control of anything, brings more control. You can bet, if we go to a complete socialized medical system, there will be controls on diet, weight and nutrition. Government, by its very nature, is about "don'ts."

Vi
...already in the works.

No worries, the FDA is looking out for us...facetiously I state.


[SIZE=+1]“Food Safety” Bill Targets Natural Supplements [/SIZE]
Personal Liberty Digest ^| 9-27-10 | Bob Livingston

Posted on Monday, September 27, 2010 5:29:11 PM by mlizzy



The war on your ability to make decisions about your own health continues with the introduction of a new bill in the Senate Judiciary Committee that would put draconian laws on natural health supplement companies and small and mid-sized farm and food facilities.
The bill is the Food Safety Accountability Act of 2010 (S 3767) and it increases fines and penalties for any person who knowingly introduces or delivers for introduction into interstate commerce any food that is adulterated or misbranded. It also imposes increased regulations and fees, including a $500 annual registration fee, which is a great imposition on small producers.
While at first glance it would seem a good thing to police adulterated or misbranded food, the problem is the vagueness of the definition of adulterated or misbranded. For instance, misbranded could mean the supplement was marketed using perfectly sound peer-reviewed research but without the approval of the FDA.
An example of this that has already occurred is a cherry producer who cited peer-reviewed scientific research from prestigious universities on the health benefits of cherries, but the FDA decided by citing that research it had, in effect, turned cherries into drugs through “false and actionable misbranding.” The FDA regularly censors science and quashes constitutionally protected free speech on healthful, natural supplements at the bidding of Big Pharma.
The bill is so draconian that even minor mistakes in record keeping can cause the supplement manufacturer and distributor to be guilty of a violation. It also holds the seller responsible for mistakes made by the manufacturer. This is part of an ongoing effort by Congress to control your ability to make your own health decisions.
The House version of this same bill — which passed a few months ago — is even worse. It imposes prison terms of up to 10 years and fines of up to $100,000 for individuals and $7.5 million for corporations, regardless of the size of the corporation.
While these harsh provisions aren’t in the Senate bill, they could be included in the final bill that comes out of the Conference Committee that merges the bills from the two Houses into one. We urge you to contact your Senator immediately to state your opposition to the bill. For more information on the bill from the Alliance For Natural Health, go here.
 

medicineman

New Member
None of my reasons are unfounded cept the drug addict one. They may be marginalized somewhat by doctors visits etc, but they are known health problems. I don't know man, life expectancy and survival rates don't do it for me. Survival of the fittest. I believe that keeping the weak alive is worse for the country as a whole in the long run. What an extreme concept, I know, it just makes sense to me. Ive been called right wing, sepratist, anarchist etc, I just like the constitution and ill never get past that facet when it comes to tax dollars. I have an extremely strong distrust for our government, warranted, and I especially wouldn't trust them with my healthcare.

Im also kind of waiting for the requirements for this socialized healthcare. The part im waiting for is "If you do not take our vaccines, you are not covered". Remember this, pretty sure you're going to see it. Further research on the gov's history with vaccines will explain why id even bring this up.

Id still like to know what some Canadians think of their healthcare as well. I saw "sicko", but later heard it was extremely one sided along with reports that some Canadians pass the border for American healthcare.

Either way, this is going to be a interesting presidency. Of course I expect the worst, but we'll see when one of the bastards enters office and starts breaking promises.
I guess you are a health nut and young, Nothing wrong with that, but condemning others that don't have your Ideas or self will is ludacris. I mean what do you propose to do with them, the weak? Kill them? This reeks of pomposity and delusions of grandeur. I applaud you on wanting to take good care of your body, but condemning others that don't is just wrong. Walk a mile before you make these lewd comdemnations.
 

Winter Woman

Well-Known Member
It's also a shame we don't make the illegal immigrants citizens so they could be paying their way then eh?

But here's the math, per capital is what we pay double the candians right?

So for a very similar level of care and half the amount paid out means we are really overpaying and this is the right time for the government to step in and force feed a more efficient system.

That 11 million illegal immigrants only represent 3% of the population right? If you want to think about the cost adjustment it's only p,us/minus three percent, which does not make up for the 50% we pay more per capital.

Wiki you'll find does connect most the key words and if you get into the habit of double checking what your saying is accurate you'll find it to be your best friend when you put your opinion out there. I would always double check with more credible resources, but still a good place to double check what your typing isn't crap.

I'd rather have more information when I form my opinions than less.
Geez, there we go with the let make the illegals legal. Sorry, I don't go for that either.

You quite easily forget that we support a drug industry that makes some pretty fantastic discoveries and I, for one, think that we should support them. And those discoveries do not come cheaply and that cost is included in our prices. Canada gets an almost free ride on the prices of their drugs-sorry.

And I noticed you picked the low end for the illegal number count, why didn't you go for the 20 million number? Hmmmm.

And I believe the cost of our soldiers healthcare is included in those numbers and Canada quite simply do not have the same volume of injured warriors and those related expenses. The sheer number of veterans old and young can eat up a lot of money.

Quite frankly I don't agree with those numbers you play so loose and freely with.

Wiki is not a credible source. Period. You should use a different source for you data than a place that anyone can add their distorted views. Also, you should use some common sense and not be soooo agressive with your personally attacks.

I can't hang around here and argue with someone who is confrontational.

Btw, your math is off. Please use actually population counts or did you get that off of Wiki too.
 
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