Soil Food Web Gardening with Compost Teas

SurfdOut said:

Nice recipe....don't want the lime? Spliff whats your soil recipe?

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Its recycled and ammended, never staying constant so I cant really say. Black gold,you should just use espom salts if you dont like lime, other than that i can't really help ya. . .

Oh I like the lime, breaks down faster than crab meal I believe, but still takes awhile...but I always let my mixes cook for a couple of months. Yeah, my soil mixes are always changin based on what I got lying around, just like my teas......hawaiin style

Personally? I don't think soil recipes change based on location. The soil recipe is heavy in aeration amendments though, which can be suitable inside or out as long as you have continuous water supply.

What I do advocate, however, is to harvest and embrace your own local BIM. Beneficial Indigenous Microbes. Local bacteria and fungus. Your own local fungus and bacterial strains are optimized for your specific area. Just as you described, Spliff.

Grab a scoop of local soil. Preferably a field with grasses. Also check the Gil C. link in my sig for harvesting other various local microbes.

The Crab Shell Meal I add is for the Chitin. Could be your leftover dried shrimp peels also. The Chitin attracts bacteria that eat soil larvae we don't want.

Rrog said:

Personally? I don't think soil recipes change based on location. .

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I agree with everything in that post except this, yes if the soil is ammend with enough humus/lime/gypsum/oyster,crab,shell,ect it SHOULD buffer and balance your ph ect..(personally I live in hawaii so i throw an abundant amount of shell fish leftovers in my soil like you mentioned)..but back to point. Where I live theirs lots of volcanic activity, and acid rain, not to mention everyone is on an catchment water set up, and even the " best " tap water i ever measured here still had 200ppm, plenty of variables basically. Long story short, I agree with ya except on soil recipes dont vary with location(especially outdo) due to the info i just stated above. peace bro, thanks for the chat..

Thanks for all the replies! Damn I love an active thread...

Rrog - This soil mix will be my last run using bagged soil as the base. I am already acquiring ingredients for the next mix and formulating recipes in my head.

In my backyard I already have 6 cuft of peat (premier), 5 cuft of coco, a few cuft of pumice, a bunch of rice hulls (although im not sure i can use them). Is there are a reason you advocate perlite and vermiculite over pumice? I have read a lot of things advocating pumice over perlite etc. My only issue is a good humus source - my personal EWC won't be ready for a month or two, same with my compost pile. Maybe I can source some good local humus, if not can I use bagged alaska humus? Might take a drive up into the mountains and do some collecting...problem with so cal is that there isn't much readily available humus...oh how i miss the pacific northwest Collecting BIM is also going to be a bit more difficult, but I'll make it work. About to get some rice out and start on some homemade EM-1....then i'll use that to inoculate my bokashi, which will go to my worms, etc. Next I just need to source nettle, comfrey, yarrow, etc down here...I have a yarrow spot in the mountains of idaho...and a thousand nettle spots in the greater seattle area....just can't imagine anywhere down here wet enough to support stands of nettle...anyone in so cal with advice? hard to follow true organics when you are surrounded by a synthetic environment! Called so many stores today where employees didn't know what rice hulls were.....oh boy.

So heres the deal with the rice hulls I have currently - The only place I was able to source them locally was a feed store, they are sold as "Perma-Stall" proffesional bedding...anyway, all was well and I got 12cuft of rice hulls for $16....not bad at all in my book...but when I got the bags home and looked at the ingredients I was a little bit pissed at myself. The bags contain rice hulls, diatomaceous earth (which is no big deal - hell its in my mix already), and some stuff called Montmorillonite clay....when I looked up montmorillonite I found that it is a clay which absorbs a lot of water and is used as a clumping agent in kitty litter, stall bedding, etc. Should I use this stuff in soil??? Or is the clay going to cause me all sorts of issues? After opening the bag it just looks like rice hulls...so the clay must be a dust which is a tiny tiny percentage of the material overall...but I'm still worried its going to f*** up my soil. Anyone seen this before? Recommendations as to where I can source rice hulls elsewhere? ($40 for a 50lb bag from the brew store...too expensive..) Would be great to know ASAP cause I was gonna mix up some soil tomorrow...

Agreed with Spliff that the mix should change based on location - for example my mix is designed to be used with RO water indoors - therefore it is very high in cal/mg amendments. If I were to water this mix with tap water I would probably get calcium or magnesium toxicity....

Speaking of my mix, do yall think I should add crab shell and oyster shell? maybe just a cup or two of each....? As long as the calcium takes more than a month or two to be released I will be perfect...anyone able to shed light on this? I just want that chitin as well as oyster shells for the bacteria/fungal advantages...

Cann said:

...anyway, all was well and I got 12cuft of rice hulls for $16....not bad at all in my book...but when I got the bags home and looked at the ingredients I was a little bit pissed at myself. The bags contain rice hulls, diatomaceous earth (which is no big deal - hell its in my mix already), and some stuff called Montmorillonite clay....when I looked up montmorillonite I found that it is a clay which absorbs a lot of water and is used as a clumping agent in kitty litter, stall bedding, etc. Should I use this stuff in soil??? Or is the clay going to cause me all sorts of issues? After opening the bag it just looks like rice hulls...so the clay must be a dust which is a tiny tiny percentage of the material overall...but I'm still worried its going to f*** up my soil. Anyone seen this before? Recommendations as to where I can source rice hulls elsewhere? ($40 for a 50lb bag from the brew store...too expensive..) Would be great to know ASAP cause I was gonna mix up some soil tomorrow...


Speaking of my mix, do yall think I should add crab shell and oyster shell? maybe just a cup or two of each....? As long as the calcium takes more than a month or two to be released I will be perfect...anyone able to shed light on this? I just want that chitin as well as oyster shells for the bacteria/fungal advantages...

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Your overthinking again Cann, lol. No that clay ain't going to matter, especially if you add more amendments to your soil (oyster/crab shell)you got such a range of amendments your on the borderline of causing some problems imo. I would go about mixing your soil tomorrow with the rice hulls you got and throw in a cup oyster and a cup crab shell, but i would not stick with those rice hulls in the long run find a different source

Cann, that was an older version of the soil recipe. Vermiculite and Perlite are out. Pumice is in. Sorry 'bout that!

If you're building soil from scratch, it's great to get some clay powders in there. Clay and Humus both create a high CEC for the soil. Bagged Alaska humus would work. Montmorillonite and Pyrophyllite Clay

I would add the charcoal. Its enormous surface area creates luxury condos for bacteria.

Too much DE makes mud. I'm dropping it in my mix. I initially added it for pest control. Now I get that from other items.

The crab shell, absolutely... for pest control. The oyster shell is great... for future grows. Takes so long to break down.

I'd pass on the rice hulls as Spliff suggested

trichome fiend said:

...sounds like your off to a good start. I'd go 50% green grass (keeping bacteria dominate), 25% brown leaf (needed fungi; carbon; helps buffer pH), 25% others....moisten and aerate the compost every 2 weeks, in 6 weeks your good to go! Check out this video, he keeps it simple.

[youtube]a-JqApyMaP4&feature[/youtube]

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I use the this style to compost all of my garden waste. Not many people have the acreage I do so this my not help many. But here it goes.... I use these fence tubes to compost with awesome results. I usually have about 6-8 tubes going by fall and then pile all of them together to overwinter. I have a huge garden area where I rotate my crops. I also rotate where my compost tubes are situated. The soil the tubes sit on is just drenched with nutrient rich runoff for the entire time the tube sits on that particular plot of soil. This runoff attracts micro/macro soil dwelling flora & fauna. When I consolidate all of my separate compost piles into one big pile I leave about a 3" layer of compost in place at each spot and then cover the spot with 6" of whole tree mulch and let sit for the winter. The next spring I will rake off the mulch, double dig in the compost that was left and plant. These compost spots are kicking out 70 pound pumpkins, watermelons the size of a grade school kid..... even massive stands of corn (a very heavy feeding crop) after only one summers worth of compost sitting in that spot. My wife and I now plan a year ahead on what we want to plant where and put a compost tube in that spot to pre-treat the soil.

That's very interesting Wyo! Compost is the key. I've become enamored with vermicompost. Starting a worm "bin" this week

Great thread guys, everyhouse should have a worm bin.....

I agree Worms in every house!

Yeah, got really into it a couple of years back.....set up a big one for a restaurant when I lived on Oahu and got to use all the castings for my native plant nurseries...

My wife "grows" with me.... actually first hobby we have in common lol. Bought her a store bought (she hates my ugly, but effective, DIY contraptions) 5 tier worm composter for Christmas.

BTW, my prize pepper and tomato plants get a weekly watering comprised of nothing more than my weekly waste water from "vacuuming" the gravel from my fresh water aquariums. Nothing else added. A great source of nitrifying bacteria. These are the critters you need to take your soil components such as blood meal from a soil amendment to a plant usable nutrient.

I have had great success using TONS of oyster shells in my mix to reduce my use of perlite and vermiculite. I like the pumice idea a lot!

Tractor Supply sells 50 pound bags of the Oyster shells, and its a very reasonable price. I like that it is ground in all different sizes, from powder to little chunks.

But, it works best when you layer it in while building your compost pile, and gives the finished compost a beautiful look and structure. Preforming the function of PH balance, calcium influence and aeration.

Oyster is a huge part of my gardening. Chiefly because I have 50+ chickens at any time. Never thought to use it as a perlite substitute though. I've always ground it to a fine powder with a mortar and pestle and used it as a replacement for dolomite. My winter compost pile is put in my chicken run so they can pick, scratch, eat and poop through it all winter. I feed on top of the pile and scatter my oyster shell there as well. Chickens can move/process a lot of material if given a little time. The sifted compost/manure I pull out of there is the engine that drives my garden. It's like nitrous for plants.


for those looking for a good air pump. This badboy is a beast. Running for going on 2 years 24/7. Cranks out the air......
http://www.amazon.com/General-Hydroponics-Dual-Diaphragm-Pump/dp/B003AKRUSW/ref=sr_1_11?s=lawn-garden&ie=UTF8&qid=1356461766&sr=1-11&keywords=hydrofarms+air+pump

SpliffAndMyLady said:

Your overthinking again Cann, lol. No that clay ain't going to matter, especially if you add more amendments to your soil (oyster/crab shell)you got such a range of amendments your on the borderline of causing some problems imo. I would go about mixing your soil tomorrow with the rice hulls you got and throw in a cup oyster and a cup crab shell, but i would not stick with those rice hulls in the long run find a different source

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Sounds good Spliff I do tend to overthink things, so thanks for keeping me grounded I know I have too many amendments...I would much rather have started from scratch at this point but it is what it is so I gotta let it play out. The problem is it started as a subs supersoil mix but then I realized I didn't necessarily want that...anyway I hope it doesn't cause any issues - what do you think could be a source of problems with this many amendments?

Rrog said:

Cann, that was an older version of the soil recipe. Vermiculite and Perlite are out. Pumice is in. Sorry 'bout that!

If you're building soil from scratch, it's great to get some clay powders in there. Clay and Humus both create a high CEC for the soil. Bagged Alaska humus would work. Montmorillonite and Pyrophyllite Clay

I would add the charcoal. Its enormous surface area creates luxury condos for bacteria.

Too much DE makes mud. I'm dropping it in my mix. I initially added it for pest control. Now I get that from other items.

The crab shell, absolutely... for pest control. The oyster shell is great... for future grows. Takes so long to break down.

I'd pass on the rice hulls as Spliff suggested

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Sounds good about the oyster and crab shell - I'll be adding those in a few hours when I mix soil again. I would love to add charcoal but not sure where to source it...wish I had a firepit in my yard damn landlords! Anyway, where do you source your charcoal Rrog? Also, where would I go about getting bentonite and basalt for your rock dust mix? Might mix up a test cuft of your mix and run it side by side with a few others....

Also, after reading the chapter in Teaming with Microbes on rototilling I am debating whether or not turning the soil before use is a helpful practice...I know sub says he mixes his soil right before he puts it in the pots - but wouldn't this destroy many arthropods, fungal hyphae, etc. that the soil has been working on for the past 30+ days while cooking....? I think I might put 3/4 my mix in a trashcan, and the other 1/4 in pots to sit for the "cooking" period, to see if the "no-till" pots will perform better. The only thing I am worried about is that there won't be enough volume of soil in the pots to "cook" properly...similar to how a compost pile needs to be a certain size - but then again its not heat we're looking for in the "cooking" of the soil...anyone tried this before? Or think it would/wouldn't work for a specific reason?

Charcoal- You can get lump hardwood charcoal and bust it up. I use my spent carbon from my carbon filter. Make sure and "activate" it, turning it to Biochar or it can such the N from your soil for a while. I'd use 2-3 cups per 5 gallon pot.

Clay Powders: www.PortlandPottery.com Montmorillonite and Pyrophyllite Clays.

Glacial Rock www.gaiagreen.com

Double checking the sourcing of the rest of the rock powders. These rock powders are like shell meal, in that they more benefit future generations of plants from this soil.

Can you elaborate on this "activation" process for charcoal?

And any thoughts on the "no-till" pots idea?

I mixed up a few soils today...will post recipes later once I get some sleep

Thanks for all your help

Rising Moon said:

I have had great success using TONS of oyster shells in my mix to reduce my use of perlite and vermiculite. I like the pumice idea a lot!

Tractor Supply sells 50 pound bags of the Oyster shells, and its a very reasonable price. I like that it is ground in all different sizes, from powder to little chunks.

But, it works best when you layer it in while building your compost pile, and gives the finished compost a beautiful look and structure. Preforming the function of PH balance, calcium influence and aeration.

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So by TONS, what would be a rough estimate of shell/cuft in the soil mix? Just wondering what your idea of tons is lol because mine might be a bit overboard...

Thanks