Solar power.

panhead

Well-Known Member
Okay, I get your point, and I appreciate your input, but let me be specific, and direct this question towards mr. panhead, specifically, since he was the one with the particular situation on hand, and talked to a company rep. that told him in person his home/property could not support the type of system he wanted: 1) why could it not support the system?and 2) what would it take to support that kind of system? If you cant answer these 2 questions directly, than please disregard this response.
Ive been holding off on posting until i had something constructive to post,im not a solar expert im just an old guy who's trying to get bang to buck ratio by using solar & asking questions,here goes.

There are some limitatations to our home that i did not post in the thread because i did not think they were relevant & they required alot of explaining,at first i had planned to mount any & all solar panels at the rear of our home,the 2nd story has a walk out deck that we rarely use,this is where i had planned to install the panels,i can only use that location if we butcher all the surrounding landscape because the deck area is heavily shaded by large oak trees,we cant simply prune a few tree limbs to bring in sunlight to the deck area,this means heavily cutting very large oak trees to the point they will not have any shape left to them & drastically changing the look of our landscape,this is not going to happen because my whole street is covered in large oak trees plus the trees that would need to be cut are shared by our neighbors,i own the trees but the neighbors do like the fact that their yards recieve alot of shade from our trees,cutting these trees would make my home stick out like a sore thumb as well as piss the neighbors off,the look of the home & landscape are important to us as well as our neighbors.

Option 2 is panel instalation above ground in our back yard,we have enough sq footage in the yard to accomidate the panel count needed but it would require that we give up some things,before i explain these things let me say this,my wife is not healthy,she has RR Multiple Sclerosis,she hurts all the time if she exerts herself but she has to remain active or she will loose the ability to walk,she is under doctors orders to push past the pain & remain active,there are very few things she will do to be active because of the pain.

We have a large vegatable garden she helps me tend to & she has several beautifil flower gardens that she tends to like clock work,no matter how bad she feels she stays on top of the gardens,the only areas of our yard that have full direct sunlight are the flower/vegatable garden areas,i can put the panels needed in those areas & only those areas because the rest of our yard is heavily shaded by oak trees that are well over 100 years old,i refeuse to butcher those trees & i cant take away the 2 areas of the yard that keeps my wife active,these limitations make a ground instalation out of reach.

Option 3, We have another area for panel instalation which is on our barn,the roof area on the barn has 100% direct sunlight but a roof mount system on that building is not a simple instalation because of the type roof i installed when i erected the barn kit i bought,the roof is a copper standing seam panel system that is a structural system,this means that the panels are the roof deck,the panels are installed directly over the frame work of the joists supporting the panel roof,there is no wood under layment under the roof.

On top of the copper roof being structural by design there is another problem which is the standing seams of the panels,every 18 inches there is a seam that stands up 1.5 inches above the roof,these seams run from the ridge (top) of the roof all the way down to the eve edge (gutter line) of the building,in order for this roof to accomidate solar panels i would have to reinforce areas under the roof where i could then install support columns through the copper roof & above the roofing system,i am qualified for this task but the structural changes needed wont be cheap or easy.

Another thing i had to decide was the look of the roof system,when i bought the barn kit i spent several thousand dollars extra by special ordering the copper roof system,the copper was bought for the way it looks with a patina finish which looks like very old green streaked copper,covering up something i special ordered because of the attractive aspects it offered really hurts & will make the barn stick out like a sore thumb,we are the only neighbors who have a barn,in order to make the barn blend with the home & still be attractive in the neighborhood we made it look as nice as possible.

Another issue with the barn is its location to the home,it is 120 feet from our home at the far end of the property,the distance would add considerable more effort to bring the power into the home,underground sprinkler lines would have to be pulled out & relocated, as well as all power supply cables from the panels would have to be upgraded to underground quality,this is an expensive upgrade & amounts to a considerable added cost between relocation of sprinkler lines as well as added cost to bury underground lines,then re landscape the yard,the barn is out of the question.

Option 4 is a roof mount panel system on the main house,we are very interested in getting as much solar energy as possible but we are only willing to sacrifice so much in asthetics,my roof on the home has enough full sun area to support the panel count needed but we do not want the home to end up looking like some goofy ass Ed Begly mess with shit all over the place,the look of the home remains important to us,we decided to limit panel count to the area of the roof that will draw the least attention,this area is full sun but not large enough to support enough panels for 100% solar power.

Due to all these issues our decision to stick to a lower output system was made.
 

greenearth5

Well-Known Member
Whenever you get that system setup I would like to take a look at it. Also ed beagle's house may look like crap but he is nearly 100% independent of the grid. Also why are you limiting yourself to ONLY solar, why not rethink using wind generators? They are very effective, small, and affordable. Good luck
 

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panhead

Well-Known Member
Ignoring the fact that Ive written articles for the local newspaper about renewable energy. Ignoring the fact that Ive met with the mayor and several companies around town about having our local power derived from a diverse spectrum of renewable sources, for a new city program. Ignoring the fact that Ive studied up on this topic for personal reasons. Ignoring the fact that I have taken college courses studying this subject. I would still say that the answer to your question is energy efficiency.

If your house is not energy efficient enough then you will NEVER EVER EVER be able to put enough SOLAR collectors of any sort on top of your house. The only way to bypass this is to make your house energy efficient, use other methods of energy sources like wind and geothermal, put some of the solar collectors in your back yard, or just fucking forget the idea!
Im not sure if im reading your posts properly,im also not sure if i can explain our situation any better id im still giving the impression that the home is not energy efficient.

All appliances are new & energy star compliant,all areas of the home that can be insulated are insulated for maximum R value & go over & above reccomended R values for my location,all windows in the home are the absolute top of the line argon gas filled energy efficient windows on the market,all floor joists are heavily insulated as well as vapor barrier protected,all plumbing lines are insulated past the reccomended R values,all duct work for heating & cooling are sealed 100% at the joints & fully incased in rigid insulation that exceeds reccomended R values,ive allready added an alternative energy heating system to the home that will only have an energy cost of running the electric blower fans needed to push the heat through the system,the fuel (wood) for the heat system is allready 100% paid for in advance because it will come from land i own that has been paid off for years,there is old growth that i can harvest & use asap at little cost.

The only issues i have left to address i am working on at preseant,i have allready purchased a solar power ventilation system to bring fresh cool air into the home & vent stale hot air from the home as well as all attic areas,ive purchased 5 skylights that will supply free light to 5 areas of the home,ive purchased all solar yard lighting as well as solar security lighting,im still in research mode for heat reflective window coverings/tint to stop heat from conducting through the argon windows but it will be corrected,i still need to address the solar hot water system which i do plan on buying & installing but due to budget concerns this will have to wait until i have the solar system ive allready purchased 100% up & running,these issues need to be addressed first.

I still need to do some work in the attic areas by installing an energy reflective system to the underside of the roof area to block heat from entering the attic to start with,this needs to be done in the winter time & will have to wait until next winter but i do plan on doing the instalation.

The last area im resarching right now in my energy saving quest i have not mentioned,this is the capacitor bank system,these systems bolt directly up to the breaker panel & store energy in the capacitor bank,from what i know so far is that they cut the amperage being drawn from the service panel by about 50%,from the studies ive read so far this translates into a monthly savings of 10% up to 30% on the monthly power consumption,this area is still being researched,i understand the principal but i still need more education & im in the process of learning,unless some big red flag comes up i will be installing the energy saving capacitor bank system myself as soon as the main solar system is in place & operating perfectly.

So far ive either done everything to the home that can possible be done to cut energy consumption,or i have plans to address the remaining energy waste issues in the very near future,i cant add systems like solar walls or energy transfer systems without mass expenditures,im aware of these systems but to install them in an existing home the size of mine is not a situation where i would ever realize any savings at all in my lifetime so i must stick with small upgrades that make fiscal sense.
 

panhead

Well-Known Member
Whenever you get that system setup I would like to take a look at it. Also ed beagle's house may look like crap but he is nearly 100% independent of the grid. Also why are you limiting yourself to ONLY solar, why not rethink using wind generators? They are very effective, small, and affordable. Good luck
In order to understnd the limited path im taking we gotta go back to the main reason im doing this in the first place,my goal is not to be as green as possible & im not working with an unlimited budget,while i do have access to enough cash to make the home 100% off the grid the liquid assets it would take are needed in order for me to retire comfortably & without worry,my main goal here is to eleminate as much cost in operating the home as possible before i retire next year,this goal does include leaving myself enough working capital to back up my real estate business of rental homes as well as having enough cash accessable in case some bad emergency happens.

Im trying very hard to keep the shitty economy in mind,with my wife being very i'll i cant count or rely 100% on my retire insurance,if the insurance fund decides to limit retire coverage this could limit or exclude my wife from getting treatment needed to keep her healthy or alive,if my wife even suspected that her health expenses would hurt our family it would kill her,she feels bad allready that she cant be the mother & wife that we expect & the added stress of getting into financial difficulty is something i need to keep away from her,with these reasons in mind i need to stay within a budget of $25,000 but preferabally $20,000,im 100% debt free with no outstanding balanced owed on any property & i need to keep it that way,i refuse to pay for upgrades using borrowed money & that is the only way i can go past $25,000 without leaving my family vunerable to emergency economy situations.

We also have other issues like asthetics & neighbors to keep in mind,where i live the neighbors all have money,i know its a shitty reason but i worry very much about how we look to our neighbors,i live in michigan & both the wife & i have health issues that will easily qualify us for the medical marijuana program in my state,once this law is in effect i plan on bringing my grow op home & building a green house to grow in,since this will be in our yard i want desperately not to attract too much attention to our property,if i have wind power devices all over the place its just another thing for the neighbors to focus on in our yard,i'd love to go with some small wind turbines, or to add as many solar panels needed to be off the grid like Ed Begly but where i live this would not blend in at all,its too much attention to my home because nobody else has any of these systems & if they do they are 100% out of sight.

One other thing we still are looking into is rain water collection & grey water re use,after i finish the expensive solar upgrades this will be a path we take,i can use our grey water for the lawn sprinkler system as well as all the gardens,im also looking into grey water use for the toliets within the home,so far all the grey water systems ive seen for toilet use look like shit & my wife will not stand for something that looks bad,once i find a system that can remain out of sight & not change the look of her bathrooms i will re use grey water for all the toilets as well as lawn & gardens,im thinking heavily on designing my own functional system & marketing it to the public,that is if i can find a way to make it cost effective to build & still remain a decent profit margin.

Im still working on ideas & im not set in stone on anything at this early stage but neighbors & asthetics play as large a role as outgoing expenses & energy saving concerns play in the big picture.
 

greenearth5

Well-Known Member
Using a rainwater run off system is an excellent idea! Its very simple to collect the water from the house and easy to store. This system would cut down your water bill drastically if not completely. Another thing to check out is having a hidden well in your back yard. In my area we are sitting on top of thousands of underground lakes rivers and streams. If your area is like mine then you can simply dig straight down and find a underground water source to use for your toilets or yard irrigation system. I would go as far as to using rain water or well water for my drinking water.

Have you checked into a geothermal system that would cool and heat your home?
 

panhead

Well-Known Member
Using a rainwater run off system is an excellent idea! Its very simple to collect the water from the house and easy to store. This system would cut down your water bill drastically if not completely. Another thing to check out is having a hidden well in your back yard. In my area we are sitting on top of thousands of underground lakes rivers and streams. If your area is like mine then you can simply dig straight down and find a underground water source to use for your toilets or yard irrigation system. I would go as far as to using rain water or well water for my drinking water.

Have you checked into a geothermal system that would cool and heat your home?
When i 1st decided to cut monthly costs in preparation of retirement alternative heating sources were my 1st mode of action,we briefly looked at those systems as well as a few other types,we decided that an outboard alternative fuel heat pump system was best for our needs,it sits behind the garage & can be fired with wood or pellets,the main reasons we chose that type system was for ease of instalation,i wanted something i could install myself & the heat pump fit the bill.

Another reason was the costs to fuel the system,we have a cabin that sits on some heavily wooded old growth acreage in the northern half of the state,all the fuel i will ever need can be supplied from land i allready own free & clear,the entire heat pump system only cost me a little over $6,000 & is very efficient,this was the first full winter we used the heat pump,i brought down 6 face cord of oak & ash to start the winter with & was expecting to use it all,so far we've only used a little over 3 face cord of wood,with that in mind & another month of solid heat the home needs it looks like the system will take approx 4 face cord a season to operate,with one trip to the cabin with my trailer in tow i can bring back 6 face cord a trip making the wood fuel a very cost effective heat source, i only need pay fuel costs for the truck & the cutting tools like the log splitter & chain saws,we visit the cabin several times each summer anyway so this is when i'll get the fuel needed.

The one drawback to this system is the filters that need to be cleaned yearly,there are 2 sets of filters,one to clean the incomming air to the home but those are pretty easy,the other set is to limit the emissions from the exhaust of the system & those are a bitch to clean,cleaning the filters is a filthy job that takes a full day to accomplish,other than that aspect im happy with the system.

Im still unsure how far im willing to go with the rain water & grey water,much depends on if i can buy a ready made system,so far everything ive seen for inside the home is shit,im looking at most likely buying several storage tanks to install in our utility room,then devising a way to incorporate a pump system to supply water to the toilets as needed,once the tanks reach their fill limit i can let the overflow run to another storage tank in the barn to use in the sprinklers & gardens,this will be a good project once im fully retired,im sure i can accomplish the task it's just putting a final plan together & getting time to do it.

I do have a question for you since you have experience in this feild.

Have you any info on the capacitor bank energy saving systems that are just hitting the market,this is a big interest area for us & seems like one of the cheapest things any home owner could ever do to cut electric costs,at roughly $300 per system thats supposed to cut electric consumption by atleast 10%, & backed by a full money back guarentee it seems like a no brainer to us.

EDIT,i also wanted to add that so far from what im reading these capacitor banks seem like something that would greatly benifit all indoor growers using expensive HID lights.
 

xochipili

Active Member
Thank you Pan, for answering my question, very thoroughly I might add. I too am interested in the capacitor bank, keep us posted if you learn anything more. Thats really all I am interested in is electrical issues, ways to reduce costs and what not, and yeah while wind generators are a very great idea, I too dont like the thought of being the only one in a neighborhood sticking out like a sore thumb, or even a whole neighborhood full of 'em, not very appealing, but that is just my opinion.
 

panhead

Well-Known Member
Thank you Pan, for answering my question, very thoroughly I might add. I too am interested in the capacitor bank, keep us posted if you learn anything more. Thats really all I am interested in is electrical issues, ways to reduce costs and what not, and yeah while wind generators are a very great idea, I too dont like the thought of being the only one in a neighborhood sticking out like a sore thumb, or even a whole neighborhood full of 'em, not very appealing, but that is just my opinion.
Im really liking what im reading & hearing about the capacitor bank storage system,i posted a thread just a few minutes ago with a demonstration video showing the capacitor unit in action as well as a link to buy it.

I have not bought it yet but the longer i think about it i am going to spend the $299 to get the unit,its only 3 wires to connect to the breaker box,i can install that in 10 minutes.

Incase you have not seen the thread about the unit here it is,please let me know what you think after you look at it,im allmost positive that im buying it unless somebody can show me a reason why it wont cut energy costs.

http://www.power-save1200.com/1200.html
 

xochipili

Active Member
300$ Looks like a sound investment to me, plus it could potentially increase the life of existing appliances, great find!
 

panhead

Well-Known Member
Here is an interesting read I found that might be worth looking at too.
http://www.i4at.org/lib2/aircool.htm
That is interesting you would post that design,other than the water aspect the design is much like what i have planned for solar ventilation in my home.

One side or our house is right up next to a heavily wooded & shaded area of our land,it stays cool even when temps are over 100 degrees outside,i plan to use this area to ventilate & cool the home,we sit in this area alot in the hot months,here is my plan.

At the foundation of the home on the cool woods side im going to cut an intake vent in the foundation,i will need to run approx 12 feet of insulated & waterproof ducting 3 ft underground to reach full shade,where the duct makes the turn to come above ground i will put a wishing well over top the vent to disguise it, as well a keep rain from entering the vent,the top of the vent will have a grate on it to keep out leaves & varmints,having the 12 ft long run of ducting burried 3 ft under ground should also help cool the air passing through it before it enters the home.

On the inside of the basement there will be a solar intake/exhaust fan mounted at the wall then connected into the existing duct work for the heating & ac systems.The cool air being brought in from the wall vent will then be pumped into the existing ductwork of the heating & cooling system,i have the option on my thermostat to run the blower fans on ventilation alone without using heat or ac,the cool air will be distributed through the home.

Now for the hot air,in 2 areas of the home there will be ceiling mounted solar exhause fans,again withthe collectors mounted in full sun,these exhaust fans in the ceiling will be covered to look like normal AC outlets,they will suck the hot air from the ceiling level & deposit it in the attic.

The attic is allready vented with a soffit vent system along with a ridge vent & a wind powered turbine vent,in order to remove the new added air flow in the attic & to reduce any humidity build up im going to install a small dormer on the cool woods side of the home,in that dormer will be another solar fan used as an intake,then on top of the roof there will be 2 more solar exhaust vents taking hot air from the attic,at this point i should have 4 times the amount of hot air being vented out than i do cool air comming in,this will/should create a negative pressure situation that will speed up the intake & air exchange through the entire living area.

Ive allready ordered most of what i need to accomplish this task,for a total cost of about $1,500 & about 7 full days work i'll have eleminated the need for air conditioning on most summer days for the cost of running the blower in the furnace,im still looking for a solar fan with enough cfm so i can eleminate using the furnace fan that runs on electricity, this should drastically cut my cooling costs to just a few dollars a month oposed to the roughly $300 a month we now spend on cooling in the hot months.

Im thinking that in 2 years the costs of installing the ventilation system will have paid for itself in savings on air conditioning costs.
 

panhead

Well-Known Member
plus rep for you for going as green as you can :D good luck on your mission and i hope the best for your wife
Thank you for the rep but just so we all understand,i didnt get into this route with the intention of going green,im a cheap ass & im trying to save as much money as possible,i hate spending money,making the home more enviromently friendly is an added bonus that i'll gladly take but my main intent was greed,the money i do have i'd like to keep instead of giving it all away to the utilities.
 

greenearth5

Well-Known Member
thats what going green is all about... fucking greed man.. Some people may do it because it helps the envrionment but i do it because its cheaper in the long run... the environmental aspect is just a bonus dude :bigjoint:

I actually think that people that have the chance to go green and dont are retarded. Why would someone that has the xtra cash not want to spend it in a manor where it would be like an investment. If i spend xxx amount now then I know I will save xxx amount throughout the duration of my lifespan. Its just common sence bro... going green is the best way to save some cash

Thank you for the rep but just so we all understand,i didnt get into this route with the intention of going green,im a cheap ass & im trying to save as much money as possible,i hate spending money,making the home more enviromently friendly is an added bonus that i'll gladly take but my main intent was greed,the money i do have i'd like to keep instead of giving it all away to the utilities.
 

BigBudBalls

Well-Known Member
"green" is the politically correct way of saying cheap! :D

(I just grabbed a few 5W panels from Harbor Freight. Just to offset charging everything rechargeable here)
 
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