Something People Ought to Know

DrBuzzFarmer

Well-Known Member
I have started researching the Diatomaceous earth way. Looks like a good option although I haven't heard of anyone using it before. Always more to learn though!
That neurotoxin you mentioned doen not sound that Gaia friendly to me... I put Mother Nature first. Harvesting from her comes second. Basically anything else comes secondary for me....

Thank you for the advice! I appreciate the different perspective.

One love
I have a devious solution for you. Not intended for use in plants and pots.
Boric Acid.
It's a powder that washes away with the rain, but placed strategically it can be very effective.
Thing about Boric Acid is that it sticks to the ants legs as a powder and when the ant goes back to it's nest it walks on the eggs, and they begin dissolving.
This is a trick people in the American South used for decades to rid a house of a troublesome roach infestation.
It's not a noxious poison. I've sprinkled it with my hands around the inside of home foundations. Though I doubt you want to eat it..........
Your infestation will disappear from it's root, in time.
Worst case scenario, your house is considered a "danger zone" by insects and you see less of them.
 

Southernontariogrower

Well-Known Member
I've seen a whole bunch of threads on here about people complaining that their organic nutes just aren't cutting it, their plant is showing lots of micronute deficiencies, etc etc.

What people need to understand is that when they grow "organic" it is a process. I'll explain how plants get nutrition from the soil, and then it will become pretty damn obvious why your plants aren't really getting the "love" that they need.

First thing is first, when you just dump a bunch of organic matter into a pot you aren't doing shit. Well actually, more often than not all you're adding is shit, but anyway... The whole way that organics work is a process. Once you have organic matter in an area you will attract tiny little bugs that can eat that matter. After they start chowing down, their predators, more tiny bugs, are attracted to the same area. These predators start to eat away at the bugs and the bugs, either through deification or death, exude nutrition into the soil that plants can eat. Plants CANNOT eat organic matter as it is.

What do we know about bacteria and fungi (the tiny bugs)? That their presence and growth is exponential. What does this mean? It means that you will start with 1-100 little critters eating your stuff, and, after a while, you'll end up with millions. You obviously won't have very much nutrition coming from 1-100 little critters, but you will have a sufficient amount coming from millions-billions. This is why soil recipes call for you to WAIT. Just look at subcool's recipe. He says you ought to wait a month, at that point your soil will be full of nutrition and ready to support some plant life.

How exactly are nutrients absorbed through the rhizosphere? The rhizosphere refers to the area around the roots of a plant. Your roots are covered with hydrogen, a cation, which they exchange for other cations as well as attract anions. This is basic chemistry. Obviously if you just put a bunch of organic matter in your pot then the microbes will not have a chance to exude any cations or anions, thus the roots will have nothing to exchange for their hydrogen. If the clay and humus (sand is too large to carry anions or cations) in your soil has a sufficient amount of nutrition then it will exchange its cations for the hydrogen on the roots. This is how the plant gets it nutrients. The rate at which a plant can absorb nutrition is referred to as its CEC (cation exchange rate). The higher it is, the more nutrition your plant can absorb. However their is a limit to a good thing. You don't want your CEC to get too high because that will make it so your roots cannot get sufficient oxygen and/or water and your soil will also have very poor drainage. Balance is the key to a good soil as it is the key to good growing.

The way salt based nutrients (chemical ferts) give your plant nutrition is by skipping the whole process of microbes exuding food and going straight to the roots. Obviously what is not used by the plant is then left in your soil and acts as a build up that can be used later. Most of the time this salt build up is unwanted though and that's why flushing became common practice. Chemical ferts provide immediate, and most of the time, good results. However, the salt based nutrition coming from your chemical ferts results in the death of your microbes. Your soil will no longer be able to provide nutrition to your plants and you will rely solely on ferts to feed your plant. That's why as time goes on you need to add more and more ferts to your grow. There is nothing wrong with this at all, but if you plan on going the route of chemical ferts, don't waste your time with a soil recipe and "organic nutrition."

When adding nutrients remember that their needs to be a balance. This goes back to the anion and cation discussion. Calcium, potassium, sodium, magnesium, iron, ammonium and hydrogen are cations. While chloride, sulfate, nitrate, and phosphate are anions. Remember that cations hang out in the soil, thus the anions must be repelled (again basic chemistry here). What does this mean? When adding nutrition realize that the anions that are not immediately absorbed will be repelled out of your soil solution. If the soil is in a contained area then they will form a cluster of their own away from your clay and humus. This will call for a flush to get rid of them. This is also why you should be careful what nutrition you buy. I've literally seen 0-50-0 in a hydro store before. I literally asked the worker if he was fucking kidding me with that useless nute and he said though he highly suggests against it, many people buy it because they read that phosphorous makes bigger buds. Though P does help out your flowers, all 0-50-0 will do is cause huge fucking problems. In a balanced recipe all the nutrition will be used and you will not experience nute burn. If you are getting nute burn, rethink about what nutes you are using and find a more balanced recipe.

Hope this helps clear up some confusion. If you would like to read more about the topic of organic gardening and nutrition, Teaming with Microbes is your book. Literally everything I covered here is covered in the first two chapters of that book. There is so much more great info in there, and if you can't afford it, it is available on btjunkie as well as other torrenting sites! Good growing and have a good day!

Edit: Well it looks like you guys enjoyed the info so time to add a little more about nutrition uptake.

Fungi and Bacteria are the two primary "workers" for providing nutrition to your plant. Fungi, though much smaller than bacteria individually, form long sort of "tunnels" from your plant's rhizosphere to nutrition found in nearby soil. Fungi are special in that they can break down "harder" materials and bring nutrition through their tunneling systems. They then either keep the nutrients until they die and then exude the nutrition into back into the soil in a plant or bacterial edible form. As said before, fungi break down hard materials, like bones, phosphorous, copper, zinc, etc. As you can probably now tell, fungi are very important. It is also important to note that the best defense against harmful fungi is beneficial fungi. Beneficial fungi out compete harmful fungi every time.

What are harmful fungi? Harmful fungi cause diseases on your plant. They do this by getting their nutrition off of your plant without exchanging anything for the nutrition. This could cause a wide variety of diseases such as root rot, plant yellowing, and other sad looking signs. That is why when you see a problem with your plant people immediately think "deficiency." And it is true, however, the reason is because there is not enough nutrition in your soil for the beneficial fungi to out compete the harmful fungi. That is why having a balanced, sufficient, amount of nutrition will always result in a good looking plant. If the nutrition is there, beneficial fungi out compete harmful fungi every time.

What exactly do bacteria do then? Well, bacteria don't move very far during their life times and they also do not form tunnels. They also don't really break down hard material, so they provide the service of breaking down the softer materials in soil for your plants. Bacteria also store nutrition that would otherwise be lost in soil due to leeching, so they got that going for them too. Also, as a part of the metabolic system of bacteria, they release CO2, this then gets absorbed by the plant via photosynthesis and process continues. The same info about beneficial and harmful fungi is true about bacteria as well.

The two different types of nitrogen ought to be mentioned to provide some additional understanding of nutrition. Fungi absorb a cation form of nitrogen (ammonium, NH4) while bacteria turn that ammonium into an anion version of nitrogen (nitrate, NO3) b/c of a special bacteria called nitrosomonas. MJ plants prefer NO3 and therefor prefer more bacteria in their soil then tress and shrubs, which prefer NH4. The preferred ratio of bacteria:fungi in most annuals is actually 1:1. It is super convenient that this is true because a balance of bacteria and fungi will keep your ph in the exact middle of the spectrum, 6-7, which turns out is perfect for mj grown in soil! It's almost as if the weed plant evolved this way to adapt to the fungus and bacteria that existed in the soil before its creation.

What should be noted is that fungi and bacteria don't just magically appear, they form as a result of your plant's exudates. That is really important to understand in organic gardening. There is always a balance, and you need to respect that balance. Don't look for quick fixes and miracle solutions in organic gardening, it just won't happen. Be patient and good things will happen. I hope this helps y'all understand some more basics about nutrition.
Awesome post! Very informative. There are some very good chemical ferts. Pretty clean too.
 

Tonycannavis

Well-Known Member
Great post I just posted my grow to share with a bud early today here people goes crazy growing organic all I do it’s keeping those micros happy the plants never been this healthy
 

m4s73r

Well-Known Member
This is why I preach mulching your cannabis plant back into your bed, growing living mulch. Mulching your fan leaves during defoliation. Got to feed that bed. As someone who runs a couple of 4x4 no till beds indoors, I dont really feel like I have to do much with proper mulching. Sure I throw on some Craft blend a couple time a year. I water with some whetting agents and Mikrobs. But really when I flip over a rock and its got a worm and bugs just all over the place, I know my soil is alive and well.
 

outside Dixie

Well-Known Member
Hole prep is the key You don't need a college degree to grow. You need holes done right after you put the plant . Fix holes for next year.Organic ..Hole have to work all winter to be ready for your plant in spring...All that is good info. For indoors..For Bugs Nemotoes work great for all bugs
 

Boatguy

Well-Known Member
Hole prep is the key You don't need a college degree to grow. You need holes done right after you put the plant . Fix holes for next year.Organic ..Hole have to work all winter to be ready for your plant in spring...All that is good info. For indoors..For Bugs Nemotoes work great for all bugs
:roll:
 

Bourbon 2

Well-Known Member
Starting a seperate thread might be a very good idea. I am reading the current threads in search of information and am shocked to see how little of this subject of microorganisms I see in the organic chats.

Thank you for the welcome!
Getting used to this whole global chat idea☯❤
One Love
What's your regimen for bacterial tea and fungal teas?
 

Week4@inCharge

Well-Known Member
I've seen a whole bunch of threads on here about people complaining that their organic nutes just aren't cutting it, their plant is showing lots of micronute deficiencies, etc etc.

What people need to understand is that when they grow "organic" it is a process. I'll explain how plants get nutrition from the soil, and then it will become pretty damn obvious why your plants aren't really getting the "love" that they need.

First thing is first, when you just dump a bunch of organic matter into a pot you aren't doing shit. Well actually, more often than not all you're adding is shit, but anyway... The whole way that organics work is a process. Once you have organic matter in an area you will attract tiny little bugs that can eat that matter. After they start chowing down, their predators, more tiny bugs, are attracted to the same area. These predators start to eat away at the bugs and the bugs, either through deification or death, exude nutrition into the soil that plants can eat. Plants CANNOT eat organic matter as it is.

What do we know about bacteria and fungi (the tiny bugs)? That their presence and growth is exponential. What does this mean? It means that you will start with 1-100 little critters eating your stuff, and, after a while, you'll end up with millions. You obviously won't have very much nutrition coming from 1-100 little critters, but you will have a sufficient amount coming from millions-billions. This is why soil recipes call for you to WAIT. Just look at subcool's recipe. He says you ought to wait a month, at that point your soil will be full of nutrition and ready to support some plant life.

How exactly are nutrients absorbed through the rhizosphere? The rhizosphere refers to the area around the roots of a plant. Your roots are covered with hydrogen, a cation, which they exchange for other cations as well as attract anions. This is basic chemistry. Obviously if you just put a bunch of organic matter in your pot then the microbes will not have a chance to exude any cations or anions, thus the roots will have nothing to exchange for their hydrogen. If the clay and humus (sand is too large to carry anions or cations) in your soil has a sufficient amount of nutrition then it will exchange its cations for the hydrogen on the roots. This is how the plant gets it nutrients. The rate at which a plant can absorb nutrition is referred to as its CEC (cation exchange rate). The higher it is, the more nutrition your plant can absorb. However their is a limit to a good thing. You don't want your CEC to get too high because that will make it so your roots cannot get sufficient oxygen and/or water and your soil will also have very poor drainage. Balance is the key to a good soil as it is the key to good growing.

The way salt based nutrients (chemical ferts) give your plant nutrition is by skipping the whole process of microbes exuding food and going straight to the roots. Obviously what is not used by the plant is then left in your soil and acts as a build up that can be used later. Most of the time this salt build up is unwanted though and that's why flushing became common practice. Chemical ferts provide immediate, and most of the time, good results. However, the salt based nutrition coming from your chemical ferts results in the death of your microbes. Your soil will no longer be able to provide nutrition to your plants and you will rely solely on ferts to feed your plant. That's why as time goes on you need to add more and more ferts to your grow. There is nothing wrong with this at all, but if you plan on going the route of chemical ferts, don't waste your time with a soil recipe and "organic nutrition."

When adding nutrients remember that their needs to be a balance. This goes back to the anion and cation discussion. Calcium, potassium, sodium, magnesium, iron, ammonium and hydrogen are cations. While chloride, sulfate, nitrate, and phosphate are anions. Remember that cations hang out in the soil, thus the anions must be repelled (again basic chemistry here). What does this mean? When adding nutrition realize that the anions that are not immediately absorbed will be repelled out of your soil solution. If the soil is in a contained area then they will form a cluster of their own away from your clay and humus. This will call for a flush to get rid of them. This is also why you should be careful what nutrition you buy. I've literally seen 0-50-0 in a hydro store before. I literally asked the worker if he was fucking kidding me with that useless nute and he said though he highly suggests against it, many people buy it because they read that phosphorous makes bigger buds. Though P does help out your flowers, all 0-50-0 will do is cause huge fucking problems. In a balanced recipe all the nutrition will be used and you will not experience nute burn. If you are getting nute burn, rethink about what nutes you are using and find a more balanced recipe.

Hope this helps clear up some confusion. If you would like to read more about the topic of organic gardening and nutrition, Teaming with Microbes is your book. Literally everything I covered here is covered in the first two chapters of that book. There is so much more great info in there, and if you can't afford it, it is available on btjunkie as well as other torrenting sites! Good growing and have a good day!

Edit: Well it looks like you guys enjoyed the info so time to add a little more about nutrition uptake.

Fungi and Bacteria are the two primary "workers" for providing nutrition to your plant. Fungi, though much smaller than bacteria individually, form long sort of "tunnels" from your plant's rhizosphere to nutrition found in nearby soil. Fungi are special in that they can break down "harder" materials and bring nutrition through their tunneling systems. They then either keep the nutrients until they die and then exude the nutrition into back into the soil in a plant or bacterial edible form. As said before, fungi break down hard materials, like bones, phosphorous, copper, zinc, etc. As you can probably now tell, fungi are very important. It is also important to note that the best defense against harmful fungi is beneficial fungi. Beneficial fungi out compete harmful fungi every time.

What are harmful fungi? Harmful fungi cause diseases on your plant. They do this by getting their nutrition off of your plant without exchanging anything for the nutrition. This could cause a wide variety of diseases such as root rot, plant yellowing, and other sad looking signs. That is why when you see a problem with your plant people immediately think "deficiency." And it is true, however, the reason is because there is not enough nutrition in your soil for the beneficial fungi to out compete the harmful fungi. That is why having a balanced, sufficient, amount of nutrition will always result in a good looking plant. If the nutrition is there, beneficial fungi out compete harmful fungi every time.

What exactly do bacteria do then? Well, bacteria don't move very far during their life times and they also do not form tunnels. They also don't really break down hard material, so they provide the service of breaking down the softer materials in soil for your plants. Bacteria also store nutrition that would otherwise be lost in soil due to leeching, so they got that going for them too. Also, as a part of the metabolic system of bacteria, they release CO2, this then gets absorbed by the plant via photosynthesis and process continues. The same info about beneficial and harmful fungi is true about bacteria as well.

The two different types of nitrogen ought to be mentioned to provide some additional understanding of nutrition. Fungi absorb a cation form of nitrogen (ammonium, NH4) while bacteria turn that ammonium into an anion version of nitrogen (nitrate, NO3) b/c of a special bacteria called nitrosomonas. MJ plants prefer NO3 and therefor prefer more bacteria in their soil then tress and shrubs, which prefer NH4. The preferred ratio of bacteria:fungi in most annuals is actually 1:1. It is super convenient that this is true because a balance of bacteria and fungi will keep your ph in the exact middle of the spectrum, 6-7, which turns out is perfect for mj grown in soil! It's almost as if the weed plant evolved this way to adapt to the fungus and bacteria that existed in the soil before its creation.

What should be noted is that fungi and bacteria don't just magically appear, they form as a result of your plant's exudates. That is really important to understand in organic gardening. There is always a balance, and you need to respect that balance. Don't look for quick fixes and miracle solutions in organic gardening, it just won't happen. Be patient and good things will happen. I hope this helps y'all understand some more basics about nutrition.
I've literally seen 0-50-0 in a hydro store before. I literally asked the worker if he was fucking kidding me with that useless nute and he said though he highly suggests against it, many people buy it because they read that phosphorous makes bigger buds. Though P does help out your flowers, all 0-50-0 will do is cause huge fucking problems. In a balanced recipe all the nutrition will be used and you will not experience nute burn. If you are getting nute burn, rethink about what nutes you are using and find a more balanced recipe.

Thanks for the info! I often wondered how could an organic grow (mine in particular) could get some nute burn. As mentioned in your post ,,,Balance!
 

PJ Diaz

Well-Known Member
I've literally seen 0-50-0 in a hydro store before. I literally asked the worker if he was fucking kidding me with that useless nute and he said though he highly suggests against it, many people buy it because they read that phosphorous makes bigger buds. Though P does help out your flowers, all 0-50-0 will do is cause huge fucking problems. In a balanced recipe all the nutrition will be used and you will not experience nute burn. If you are getting nute burn, rethink about what nutes you are using and find a more balanced recipe.

Thanks for the info! I often wondered how could an organic grow (mine in particular) could get some nute burn. As mentioned in your post ,,,Balance!
Blood meal is an organic nute, but use too much and you will have an excess of N and burn your plants.
 

Week4@inCharge

Well-Known Member
Blood meal is an organic nute, but use too much and you will have an excess of N and burn your plants.
I've done this with (seemingly) Neem Seed Meal (6-1-2). Some pots showed signs of nute burn, others didn't so not really sure what did what. I'm told a soil test is the way to go but soil testing plus number of pots sounds expensive. It also could've been just that one extra tablespoon of dry amendments that did it.. so lots of grows to go to really find out for myself.
 

Psyphish

Well-Known Member
This post explains why my attempt at "organic" growing is such a failure. I took coco coir and mixed in about 30% EWC. I then added Guanokalong Complete Organics powder and Ecothrive Charge powder. I watered that mixture with water that had BioBizz Fish Mix in it. I let the mixture sit for a couple of weeks, mixing it around daily. I then transplanted my seedlings into it and watered with sea weed extract and they appear to be STARVING week after the transplant. I guess I thought adding "organic powders" would be enough for the plants to feed on, but I'm obviously lacking the bugs, bacteria, fungi and all that other jazz. I guess I'll have to just treat it like regular coco coir and feed salt based nutrients on every watering.
 
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Week4@inCharge

Well-Known Member
This post explains why my attempt at "organic" growing is such a failure. I took coco coir and mixed in about 30% EWC. I then added Guanokalong Complete Organics powder and Ecothrive Charge powder. I watered that mixture with water that had BioBizz Fish Mix in it. I let the mixture sit for a couple of weeks, mixing it around daily. I then transplanted my seedlings into it and watered with sea weed extract and they appear to be STARVING week after the transplant. I guess I thought adding "organic powders" would be enough for the plants to feed on, but I'm obviously lacking the bugs, bacteria, fungi and all that other jazz. I guess I'll have to just treat it like regular coco coir and feed salt based nutrients on every watering.
Could've just been a little transplant shock. And dose of compost tea could get you a boost in breaking down those nutes faster. And using coco coir is half assing on an organic grow in my opinion. Use some real soil.
 

Psyphish

Well-Known Member
Could've just been a little transplant shock. And dose of compost tea could get you a boost in breaking down those nutes faster. And using coco coir is half assing on an organic grow in my opinion. Use some real soil.
I don't really have any place to make compost tea at. I don't know what I was thinking with the whole organic coco.
 

Hollatchaboy

Well-Known Member
I don't really have any place to make compost tea at. I don't know what I was thinking with the whole organic coco.
You can make compost tea anywhere a 5 gallon bucket will fit.

Organics work by microbial activity breaking down organic inputs. Moisture is needed for that process to take place. Coco dries too quickly imo.
 

Southernontariogrower

Well-Known Member
Root tips absorb most nutes of the whole rhyzosphere. Overwatering is not good! roots need to look for water as this promotes growth vigor. Salt based ferts grow as well as bottled. Organics can run into problems too.
The three most important areas of growing are proper light, intensity wattage spectrum etc. good medium, that drains well. Good watering practices help! And airflow!
The easier to get to the plants the better. If hand watering, a schedule helps too. Proper care and storage of ph and ppm meters will help you sooner or later. And testing meters for accuracy every little while could save your crop or a headache at the minimal.
I've cut everything down to bare minimal in flowering tent. Trying to utilize whole area for the hope of more bud come end of grow. So no extra space for unnecessary equiptment.
co2 and higher levels will help if plants are stressed from heat, was a hps grower but leds cut at least ten to twenty degrees from my tents temperature. Plus whole area has light coverage of %100. Corners of 4x4 were never covered like tent center and now tent coverage is hundreds of watts less and in my opinion, 10x better. Rarely turn on extraction fan last few flower cycles.
Over hps l think leds are a gamechanger. Hope some of this babble might of helped.
Happy growing!
 
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