Sphagnum peat vs coco coir

714steadyeddie

Well-Known Member
I wanted to get this discussion going.

Currently I'm growing in royal gold tupur (coco mixed with compost) at first I wanted to build my organic soil with peat, but I'm having good growth rates with tupur currently. Now I'm thinking of not using peat and just going with royal gold tupur.

anyone have experience making organic soil with coco ?
 

greasemonkeymann

Well-Known Member
I wanted to get this discussion going.

Currently I'm growing in royal gold tupur (coco mixed with compost) at first I wanted to build my organic soil with peat, but I'm having good growth rates with tupur currently. Now I'm thinking of not using peat and just going with royal gold tupur.

anyone have experience making organic soil with coco ?
are you reusing your soil? if so, i'd go with peat
I've done both, and i really prefer peat to be honest
here is a reaaaally good read regarding it, the biggest concern/complaint for me is that the cation and nitrogen to carbon ratio is waaay off
in my mind (and experience) it's crucial to have as neutral of a media as possible, especially if you are re-using it.
typically if you do run into problems with it, it's towards the end of flowering, exhibiting cal def, sometimes caused by a cation imbalance.

http://cpl.usu.edu/files/publications/factsheet/pub__9468201.pdf
 
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714steadyeddie

Well-Known Member
are you reusing your soil i'd go with peat
I've done both, and i really prefer peat to be honest
here is a reaaaally good read regarding it, the biggest concern/complaint for me is that the cation and nitrogen to carbon ratio is waaay off
in my mind (and experience) it's crucial to have as neutral of a media as possible, especially if you are re-using it.
typically if you do run into problems with it, it's towards the end of flowering, exhibiting cal def, sometimes caused by a cation imbalance.

http://cpl.usu.edu/files/publications/factsheet/pub__9468201.pdf
No it would be made fresh.

Great I was actually looking for good reading material.
 

greasemonkeymann

Well-Known Member
No it would be made fresh.

Great I was actually looking for good reading material.
gotcha, so you use new soil each grow?
what do you do with the old stuff? if you go with a new mix each time i'd say you could use it, but that's not really ideal, but all that really is subjective, if you don't mind doing that each time then it's not a problem.
that being said it's gonna be a pretty good chunk of money over time, and if you are using a good compost that's really all you need to rejuvenate the old soil.
 

J-Icky

Well-Known Member
are you reusing your soil? if so, i'd go with peat
I've done both, and i really prefer peat to be honest
here is a reaaaally good read regarding it, the biggest concern/complaint for me is that the cation and nitrogen to carbon ratio is waaay off
in my mind (and experience) it's crucial to have as neutral of a media as possible, especially if you are re-using it.
typically if you do run into problems with it, it's towards the end of flowering, exhibiting cal def, sometimes caused by a cation imbalance.

http://cpl.usu.edu/files/publications/factsheet/pub__9468201.pdf
Hmm interesting read. Honestly that study reeks of "peat industry funded" though. the fact that they didn't rinse the coco but they added lime to the peat is very questionable for a fair study.
Its well known that coco needs to be rinsed before use as a means of preparation, much like peat needs lime. But coco also needs lime or some source of calcium as another form of preparation before being used in a grow.
What i got from that study was that you need to rinse your coco before use and maybe feed a little heavier with nitrogen.

I'm not saying coco is better than peat, or even peat is better than coco. I'd wait for more responses from people with real world experience honestly.

Now my real questions about both. Ok so its an "inert" media once properly prepared, but several sources say that as it breaks down it releases potassium. So how can it be inert but also a source of potassium?
Peat is known to make the medium acidic as it breaks down, but what else does it "release" when it breaks? Its had to believe it doesn't release some form of nitrogen or other nutrients if coco does.
 

greasemonkeymann

Well-Known Member
Hmm interesting read. Honestly that study reeks of "peat industry funded" though. the fact that they didn't rinse the coco but they added lime to the peat is very questionable for a fair study.
Its well known that coco needs to be rinsed before use as a means of preparation, much like peat needs lime. But coco also needs lime or some source of calcium as another form of preparation before being used in a grow.
What i got from that study was that you need to rinse your coco before use and maybe feed a little heavier with nitrogen.

I'm not saying coco is better than peat, or even peat is better than coco. I'd wait for more responses from people with real world experience honestly.

Now my real questions about both. Ok so its an "inert" media once properly prepared, but several sources say that as it breaks down it releases potassium. So how can it be inert but also a source of potassium?
Peat is known to make the medium acidic as it breaks down, but what else does it "release" when it breaks? Its had to believe it doesn't release some form of nitrogen or other nutrients if coco does.
hmm, is that a slight ball-bustin i'm getting?
am i lacking "real world experience here"?
or am i just being wearing my sensitive-pants today..
so first, technically you are correct, as virtually nothing used as a base in the soil can be truly inert, but that's because of the interaction of the bacterial and fungal biodiversity, humic acids, etc.
the issue of it not only not being as high of a cec as peat is a good reason, as well at it leaching potassium into the soil continuously, which i suppose would be fine if you countered that elsewhere, but in my experience a potassium toxicity is easier to come across than you'd think, especially in an organic soil that retains and holds onto cations and other nutrients much more readily than a typical hydro media
plus it's always easier to add nutrients rather than try to counter a toxicity issue by adding other nutrients, especially pertaining to cations
the topic has been discussed and by a good amount of well know veteran growers here, and the majority of them reported similar results, with many simply saying visually the plants looked the same, only smaller yields.
the comparison of the lime with the peat and to the coco isn't really applicable, it clearly said they needed gypsum to match the coco, but it's needed more so for the potential salinity issues it has, rather than ph control, and of course gypsum has that calcium that you'd need as well, my biggest complaint would be the leaching of the potassium and the imbalance of the cations
also they add the d-lime not as a source of calcium but rather to control the inherent acidity of the peat.
i'm curious why you think that study is made or influenced by the peat "industry", considering it's not linked to anything, and is done by a university....
also, really the biggest difference is that peat is a composted product, and coco is not, so therein lies the difference. So it doesn't really break down much other than the typical physical breakdown of the particles as they are mixed with the microbes and nutrients, peat is made in an aerobic condition so the microbes and such are completely different, mixing the peat with aeration and the typical biodiversity that organic soils have and essentially everything is devoured eventually, but that's how it works, otherwise the earth would be stacked with leaves and detritus that never goes anywhere.

i know this all seems like i am super pro-peat, in reality i'm not at all, in fact i would prefer a different media alltogether, but nothing I've tried works as well, the closest thing that comes to it would be a leaf-mold, but that's takes so long to make that most don't have the time/space/patience for that.
a happy medium would be to mix the two, I've done that and had good success with that.
as far as the concern of peat releasing nitrogen as it breaks down, i'd say it's safe to say none of that is going to be released in a compost/breakdown scenario, at least not in the typical environment that a soil media is.
the cec from peat is superior to coco, that enough is reason alone to use it.
I wanted to like the coco the same, but it simply didn't perform as well, especially in a re-used soil.
not saying i didn't grow some nice herb, just saying it didn't do as well as a peat based mix.
smaller yields, by around 15% or so, and it exhibited a calcium def issue around week 6-7 or so, that was on a sativa that typically ran 9 to 10 weeks
and no way in hell the plant was actually having a cal def, anyone around here that has heard me ramble on and on about it, and that is that topdressing comfrey will "keep em green till the end":
just not with coco, at least not when coco is used as the primary "base" of the soil.
 
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J-Icky

Well-Known Member
First, sorry for coming off like I was busting your balls, I seriously wasn't trying to.
Second, Thanks for answering my questions, I know it came off weird but I was honestly interested in the answers.

As for why I believe it was a peat industry funded research paper. Well like I said they skipped rinsing the coco, which is a standard practice before using it even though its well known that it can contain large amounts of salt. But then they turn around and add lime to the peat, why, because it is well known that peat is acidic. A fair study would have either rinsed the coco or left out the peat, not use one standard practice and skip another.
My other reason is the pictures they provided. I get that peat may be the better substrate but the drastic difference is questionable and the fact that the peat was as healthy as could possibly be while every single coco picture looked like it was on the verge of death and not in one single instance did the peat perform poorly.

I question what actually happened in that study based on the fact that so many growers perform so well in just coco, and many here would take it over anything else. I would love to know what nutrients they used, when and how. Treating just coco and perlite, like a soil would def give the results they showed.

Again, i know this may come off towards you, but its not meant that way. I am simply questioning the study and again thank you for the experience and info you provided.
 

greasemonkeymann

Well-Known Member
First, sorry for coming off like I was busting your balls, I seriously wasn't trying to.
Second, Thanks for answering my questions, I know it came off weird but I was honestly interested in the answers.

As for why I believe it was a peat industry funded research paper. Well like I said they skipped rinsing the coco, which is a standard practice before using it even though its well known that it can contain large amounts of salt. But then they turn around and add lime to the peat, why, because it is well known that peat is acidic. A fair study would have either rinsed the coco or left out the peat, not use one standard practice and skip another.
My other reason is the pictures they provided. I get that peat may be the better substrate but the drastic difference is questionable and the fact that the peat was as healthy as could possibly be while every single coco picture looked like it was on the verge of death and not in one single instance did the peat perform poorly.

I question what actually happened in that study based on the fact that so many growers perform so well in just coco, and many here would take it over anything else. I would love to know what nutrients they used, when and how. Treating just coco and perlite, like a soil would def give the results they showed.

Again, i know this may come off towards you, but its not meant that way. I am simply questioning the study and again thank you for the experience and info you provided.
i gotcha, yea man, i wasn't entirely sure it was meant aggressively at all, which is exactly why i asked.
most people around here with attest that i'm failry mellow mostly, i just wasn't sure if you were or not.
i see what you are saying, i was just saying that the rinsing is only for the sodium content, and the sodium itself likely isn't causing any issues in that regard, as far as to whether it was hindering the growth.
coco on it's own is def good stuff to use, i just have experienced issues late in grows with it, especially pertaining to calcium defs, which is likely caused by a slow accumulation of that potassium being built up.
now the issue is, try to fix that... you virtually cannot, and given that its typically at the end of the flowering anyways you run out of time as well.
add as much calcium as you want and it won't matter if it's a K toxicity

also people that have heard me say it a BUNCH of times, and that is that cation balance and ratios are VERY important to container plants, especially if you are relying on bottle nutrients
and especially if you are reusing your soil.
but past those concerns it's absolutely a viable alternative to peat.
just not quite the same
i had great luck with a 50/50 blend of it
i also had great luck as using the coco as the carbon input for an amended compost too, that worked really great with alfalfa meal as the nitrogen input.
but composted coco is totally different, closer to just humus
not sure if i'd agree with what you said as far as most growers preferring it over others, but that's subjective of course, i do know that most organic growers and living-soil growers/no-till growers prefer peat by far.
that doesn't matter though, subjective analysis is exactly that, not to mention it's really more conjecture for reasons you pointed out, as well as others, and that's that there are simply many many variables being utilized there, and that always muddies up any sort of conclusive results
but for my experience, peat is a superior base for a soil mix, I've used coco for at least 7 runs or so, and peat for the remaining, which to be honest is countless at this point, first harvest was in fall/spring of 1988, and approx. 3-7 harvests each yr since then.
shit.. just realized i'm damn near at 30 yrs for this game already..
damn...
course that ain't nuthin compared to my man wetdog
think he's at like 50 somethin
 
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J-Icky

Well-Known Member
Thanks for the info and even outside of the cannabis game this info is highly useful. Tomatoes as an example, do well in acidic soils and need loads of calcium. So using a peat based mix would benefit them greatly and coco could actually cause them some serious problems, especially towards the end when you would want them in ideal circumstances to produce the best fruit.
 

FamMan

Well-Known Member
i gotcha, yea man, i wasn't entirely sure it was meant aggressively at all, which is exactly why i asked.
most people around here with attest that i'm failry mellow mostly, i just wasn't sure if you were or not.
i see what you are saying, i was just saying that the rinsing is only for the sodium content, and the sodium itself likely isn't causing any issues in that regard, as far as to whether it was hindering the growth.
coco on it's own is def good stuff to use, i just have experienced issues late in grows with it, especially pertaining to calcium defs, which is likely caused by a slow accumulation of that potassium being built up.
now the issue is, try to fix that... you virtually cannot, and given that its typically at the end of the flowering anyways you run out of time as well.
add as much calcium as you want and it won't matter if it's a K toxicity

also people that have heard me say it a BUNCH of times, and that is that cation balance and ratios are VERY important to container plants, especially if you are relying on bottle nutrients
and especially if you are reusing your soil.
but past those concerns it's absolutely a viable alternative to peat.
just not quite the same
i had great luck with a 50/50 blend of it
i also had great luck as using the coco as the carbon input for an amended compost too, that worked really great with alfalfa meal as the nitrogen input.
but composted coco is totally different, closer to just humus
not sure if i'd agree with what you said as far as most growers preferring it over others, but that's subjective of course, i do know that most organic growers and living-soil growers/no-till growers prefer peat by far.
that doesn't matter though, subjective analysis is exactly that, not to mention it's really more conjecture for reasons you pointed out, as well as others, and that's that there are simply many many variables being utilized there, and that always muddies up any sort of conclusive results
but for my experience, peat is a superior base for a soil mix, I've used coco for at least 7 runs or so, and peat for the remaining, which to be honest is countless at this point, first harvest was in fall/spring of 1988, and approx. 3-7 harvests each yr since then.
shit.. just realized i'm damn near at 30 yrs for this game already..
damn...
course that ain't nuthin compared to my man wetdog
think he's at like 50 somethin
You are the Fn man!!!
 

kratos015

Well-Known Member
Damn lots of great info greasemonkey. Learned a lot from all of that, had no idea why peat was actually superior to coco, just that it gives me better results and is much cheaper.

Eddie, I've had good experience with coco in the past. Used to make sub's supersoil with it, instead of using the 8 bags of soil I'd use 4 bags and mix it with coco and it gave me pretty damn good results. However that being said, I've been having much better results with peat and because of what greasemonkey wrote, now I know why. A compressed 3 cu.ft. bale can be had for $15 out the door at your local Lowes or Home Depot, however I prefer the brand that Lowes carries personally as apparently Premier makes a really good product. Just get yourself some Oyster Shell Flour and it'll buffer it right up to where you want it. Can't recommend it enough, for both quality and affordability.
 

hillbill

Well-Known Member
If I wasyounger I might commit to coco but I have been using peat for so long and we know each other so well that starting a new relationship at this point would be stressful to all concerned. Peat here.
 
My 2c....both....but just buy the coco and the perlite (most of what Tupur is) and skip the name brands.

When you combine bulk ingredients in soil you tend to get a synergistic effect, you get the best of both and mitigate the negatives of either.

The same is true for nutritional amendments. For Example - use 4 nitrogen sources in lower amounts each vs. 1. You will see the effects.

This is how we make our soils. Always reuse your soils when you can, unless you have pests, then reconsider this....then stop getting pests and go back to recycling the soil.
 
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