Matt Rize
Hashmaster
The point is that tane performs better when you control the temps and keep it low. same with iso. and yes I was working thru the phases towards supercrit CO2
Sr. Verde's: Concentrate Corner
- Thread starter Sr. Verde
- Start date
cannabineer
Ursus marijanus
It's the "performs better" where I think we disagree somewhat. I don't think that warm butane is materially, significantly different or more aggressive than cold butane. But I do admit that I'm splitting hares. cn
i asked because i want to learn.
i don't understand why you would laugh at me for that.
oakley1984
Well-Known Member
now i am laughing at you
because you didnt actually say that, you said you just wanted to learni was addressing other posts sorry for the confusion
Matt Rize
Hashmaster
Butane solubility listed with both pressure and temperature because both affect solubility.
Miscellaneous
Solubility in water (1.013 bar and 20 °C (68 °F)) : 0.0325 vol/vol
http://encyclopedia.airliquide.com/Encyclopedia.asp?GasID=8
And:
Solubility of Hydrocarbons in Physical Solvents
"This paper compares the solubility of hydrocarbons in several physical solvents such as ethylene glycol, diethylene glycol, triethylene glycol, methanol, and dimethyl ethers of polyethylene glycol (DEPG, a solvent marketed by Union Carbide, UOP, and Coastal). Most of these solvents are designed to extract unwanted components such as water and acid gases. However, these solvents also have a tendency to remove the hydrocarbon product. Quantifying this amount of absorption is critical in order to minimize hydrocarbon losses or to optimize hydrocarbon recovery depending on the objective of the process. The influence of several parameters on hydrocarbon solubility including temperature, pressure and solvent water content is examined. Suggested operating parameters to achieve hydrocarbon absorption objectives are included. Hydrocarbon solubility is a major factor when considering the use of a physical solvent."
http://www.bre.com/portals/0/technicalarticles/Solubility of Hydrocarbons in Physical Solvents.pdf
And just to get nerdier. Why would temp (energy) affect the van der Waals force?
"Cohesive Energy Density
From the heat of vaporization, in calories per cubic centimeter of liquid, we can derive the cohesive energy density (c) by the following expression
where:
c=Cohesive energy density
Δh=Heat of vaporization
r=Gas constant
t=Temperature
Vm = Molar volume
In other words, the cohesive energy density of a liquid is a numerical value that indicates the energy of vaporization in calories per cubic centimeter, and is a direct reflection of the degree of van der Waals forces holding the molecules of the liquid together.
Interestingly, this correlation between vaporization and van der Waals forces also translates into a correlation between vaporization and solubility behavior. This is because the same intermolecular attractive forces have to be overcome to vaporize a liquid as to dissolve it. This can be understood by considering what happens when two liquids are mixed: the molecules of each liquid are physically separated by the molecules of the other liquid, similar to the separations that happen during vaporization. The same intermolecular van der Waals forces must be overcome in both cases.
Since the solubility of two materials is only possible when their intermolecular attractive forces are similar, one might also expect that materials with similar cohesive energy density values would be miscible. This is in fact what happens.
Solubility Parameter
In 1936 Joel H. Hildebrand (who laid the foundation for solubility theory in his classic work on the solubility of nonelectrolytes in 1916) proposed the square root of the cohesive energy density as a numerical value indicating the solvency behavior of a specific solvent.
It was not until the third edition of his book in 1950 that the term "solubility parameter" was proposed for this value and the quantity represented by the symbol ∂. Subsequent authors have proposed that the term hildebrands be adopted for solubility parameter units, in order to recognize the tremendous contribution that Dr. Hildebrand has made to solubility theory."
http://cool.conservation-us.org/coolaic/sg/bpg/annual/v03/bp03-04.html
Now I just don't know, I'm too high for all this. lol
kept reading:
"Temperature, concentration, viscosity
The solubility window of a polymer has a specific size, shape, and placement on the Teas graph depending on the polarity and molecular weight of the polymer, and the temperature and concentration at which the measurements are made. Most published solubility data are derived from 10% concentrations at room temperature.
Heat has the effect of increasing the size of the solubility window, due to an increase in the disorder (entropy) of the system. The more disordered a system is (increased entropy), the less it matters how dissimilar the solubility parameters of the components are. Since entropy also relates to the number of elements in a system (more elements=more disorder), polymer grades of lower molecular weight (many small molecules) will have larger solubility windows than polymer grades of higher molecular weight (fewer large molecules)."
Miscellaneous
Solubility in water (1.013 bar and 20 °C (68 °F)) : 0.0325 vol/vol
http://encyclopedia.airliquide.com/Encyclopedia.asp?GasID=8
And:
Solubility of Hydrocarbons in Physical Solvents
"This paper compares the solubility of hydrocarbons in several physical solvents such as ethylene glycol, diethylene glycol, triethylene glycol, methanol, and dimethyl ethers of polyethylene glycol (DEPG, a solvent marketed by Union Carbide, UOP, and Coastal). Most of these solvents are designed to extract unwanted components such as water and acid gases. However, these solvents also have a tendency to remove the hydrocarbon product. Quantifying this amount of absorption is critical in order to minimize hydrocarbon losses or to optimize hydrocarbon recovery depending on the objective of the process. The influence of several parameters on hydrocarbon solubility including temperature, pressure and solvent water content is examined. Suggested operating parameters to achieve hydrocarbon absorption objectives are included. Hydrocarbon solubility is a major factor when considering the use of a physical solvent."
http://www.bre.com/portals/0/technicalarticles/Solubility of Hydrocarbons in Physical Solvents.pdf
And just to get nerdier. Why would temp (energy) affect the van der Waals force?
"Cohesive Energy Density
From the heat of vaporization, in calories per cubic centimeter of liquid, we can derive the cohesive energy density (c) by the following expression
where:
c=Cohesive energy density
Δh=Heat of vaporization
r=Gas constant
t=Temperature
Vm = Molar volume
In other words, the cohesive energy density of a liquid is a numerical value that indicates the energy of vaporization in calories per cubic centimeter, and is a direct reflection of the degree of van der Waals forces holding the molecules of the liquid together.
Interestingly, this correlation between vaporization and van der Waals forces also translates into a correlation between vaporization and solubility behavior. This is because the same intermolecular attractive forces have to be overcome to vaporize a liquid as to dissolve it. This can be understood by considering what happens when two liquids are mixed: the molecules of each liquid are physically separated by the molecules of the other liquid, similar to the separations that happen during vaporization. The same intermolecular van der Waals forces must be overcome in both cases.
Since the solubility of two materials is only possible when their intermolecular attractive forces are similar, one might also expect that materials with similar cohesive energy density values would be miscible. This is in fact what happens.
Solubility Parameter
In 1936 Joel H. Hildebrand (who laid the foundation for solubility theory in his classic work on the solubility of nonelectrolytes in 1916) proposed the square root of the cohesive energy density as a numerical value indicating the solvency behavior of a specific solvent.
It was not until the third edition of his book in 1950 that the term "solubility parameter" was proposed for this value and the quantity represented by the symbol ∂. Subsequent authors have proposed that the term hildebrands be adopted for solubility parameter units, in order to recognize the tremendous contribution that Dr. Hildebrand has made to solubility theory."
http://cool.conservation-us.org/coolaic/sg/bpg/annual/v03/bp03-04.html
Now I just don't know, I'm too high for all this. lol
kept reading:
"Temperature, concentration, viscosity
The solubility window of a polymer has a specific size, shape, and placement on the Teas graph depending on the polarity and molecular weight of the polymer, and the temperature and concentration at which the measurements are made. Most published solubility data are derived from 10% concentrations at room temperature.
Heat has the effect of increasing the size of the solubility window, due to an increase in the disorder (entropy) of the system. The more disordered a system is (increased entropy), the less it matters how dissimilar the solubility parameters of the components are. Since entropy also relates to the number of elements in a system (more elements=more disorder), polymer grades of lower molecular weight (many small molecules) will have larger solubility windows than polymer grades of higher molecular weight (fewer large molecules)."
mindphuk
Well-Known Member
My local Publix carries it in their freezer department. Check around, I've seen it carried at gas stations and truck stops too.also, dry ice is a pain in the ass to get in my area.
Yes please. Start a new thread so you can answer the inevitable questions.
oakley1984
Well-Known Member
im in canada man.. not quite the same... its available.. but its just not nearly as commonly found as it is in the states...
and im working on the thread
compiling pictures and attempting to get some help writing it out in more of a friendly how to as well, im abit of a harsh asshole thats not the greatest at explaining exactly what it is im doing... so if anyone wants to volunteer for that shit job, gimme a msg haha
oakley1984
Well-Known Member
Put your hose clamp a little further down the tube like this
They will stay cleaner
congrats on the 1000th post in the thread
Samwell Seed Well
Well-Known Member
its very simple, if during the proccess of extraction you change the chemical make up just as the plant would over time, the thc glands will be polarized and almost 100% converted to thcv and decarboxalted(cant spell sorry) butane will only do this if you use a heat purge and it is not 100%,
there is a science to this its not 1+2=3 if you dont understand then you shoudl look it up, using a solvent that is isomerizing does to polarized and change the thc glands, look up honey bee extractor cant remeber the other old school extractors they use heat and ISO solvents or hexane, thats a whole other devil, to change the thc chemically then leave just the coverted thc left, anyone know the old school thai somthing somthing isomerizer extractor
here is a explanation that make more sense, im a fucking novice
"Direct isomerization
Sometimes if pot is totally rank and crappy, or you're dealing with a bunch of roaches, trimmings, or some other inferior source of THC it is desirable to go well beyond what a simple volatile solvent or super critical fluid extraction can do. You want to convert all those free available cannibidiols into more potent THC analogs and cannabinols.
http://www.420magazine.com/forums/cannabis-facts-information/69975-direct-isomerization-thc-produce-purest-extract.html
This technique also will render a fully decarboxylized end product, as well as destroying many terpenes and aromatics which can improve or destroy a product depending on the original quality. It is important to understand this is not a full conversion to ƒ´9-THC, but to THC analogs and more active cannibidiols, and is included in this discussion more as an educational exercise. Basic isomerization takes place with a quick reflux of your cannabinoids in the presence of any H+ source (acid)."
here is a recipe i have done once and it worked great but im lazy its master thias reciper for all honey oils to be pure
Making Marijuana Cannabis Honey Oil Like A Pro, It does not matter how you started making marijuana honey oil,
if you have done this your not done ! If its Butane , Iso , or grain
if you have not taken these simple steps than you are not finished yet,
one more thing to do now, to get those impurities out , & Have
those yummy Flavor's locked in and oh that Golden magic color.
by Master Thai
Isomerization of Raw Plant Extract
Supply list
1.) Large Glass Beaker (500 to 1000 mils.)
2.) Large eulmeyer Flask (500 to 1000 mils.) With vacuum filter and funnel.
3.) #50 filter papers
4.) Length of clear hose ( to connect to vacuum )
5.) Charcoal / norit (activated charcoal, must be lab-grade only )
6.) 100% Grain alcohol ( Everclear )
7.) Sulfuric or Hydrochloric Acid ( bye in small quantities, a little goes a long ways)
8.) Scale ( triple beam or lab-jewlery scale only , perfer Triple Beam, No batteries to run down and give a mis-reads of weight's )
9.) Calculater
10.) Pencil & Note Pad
Method
1. Using raw extract weigh mass and take note.
2. Add 10 times this amount of grain alcohol & mix with raw extract in beaker.
3. Take a pH reading & write this down.
4. Using a small dropper, Add 1 drop of Acid, (slowly , this will react & get warm, SO BE CAUTIOUS) for each gram of raw extract & stir with glass rod.
5. Using a volume of charcoal / norit equal to the solution ( raw extract/ alcohol mix ) Add this to the solution and agitate for 2 or 3 minutes.
6. Take a second pH reading subtracts from first reading.
The difference is a good starting point to add Bicarbonate of Soda at a 1 to 1 ratio, Or 1 gram of Soda to 1 drop of Acid.
Add Soda slowly ( this too will react ).
Take a third pH reading ; then adjust the pH according to the first reading using Soda or Acid to match the first reading.
You should achieve a pH of 6.5 to 7.5 The sweet stuff is at a range around 6.6 or 6.8 range.
7. Set up the eulmeyer flask with filter and vacuum source ( tap water is your source ) Then turn water on & pour solution slowly into funnel portion of the flask. At this point when you have pulled the solution into the flask, rinse the beaker with a small amount of alcohol to get the remainder.
8. At this point the alcohol can be evaporated if necessary or reduced to the desired consistency depending on intent of use.
The infra red lite Master uses works well - very good here.(A must do-have)
9. Clean up all equipment and put away and now enjoy :
REAL HONEY OIL, its not fake or halfway like ALL other methods shown here in this section.
Like Master Thai's Grandfather said to him a long time ago :
If your going to do it half way than just dont do it at all
Be a pro not a poser Grasshopper
Advise well taken.
So now you know how it works ( Real Honey Oil ) enjoy your efforts, and relax with the REAL Stuff and see what you all been missing.
peace ,
Master Thai
there is a science to this its not 1+2=3 if you dont understand then you shoudl look it up, using a solvent that is isomerizing does to polarized and change the thc glands, look up honey bee extractor cant remeber the other old school extractors they use heat and ISO solvents or hexane, thats a whole other devil, to change the thc chemically then leave just the coverted thc left, anyone know the old school thai somthing somthing isomerizer extractor
here is a explanation that make more sense, im a fucking novice
"Direct isomerization
Sometimes if pot is totally rank and crappy, or you're dealing with a bunch of roaches, trimmings, or some other inferior source of THC it is desirable to go well beyond what a simple volatile solvent or super critical fluid extraction can do. You want to convert all those free available cannibidiols into more potent THC analogs and cannabinols.
http://www.420magazine.com/forums/cannabis-facts-information/69975-direct-isomerization-thc-produce-purest-extract.html
This technique also will render a fully decarboxylized end product, as well as destroying many terpenes and aromatics which can improve or destroy a product depending on the original quality. It is important to understand this is not a full conversion to ƒ´9-THC, but to THC analogs and more active cannibidiols, and is included in this discussion more as an educational exercise. Basic isomerization takes place with a quick reflux of your cannabinoids in the presence of any H+ source (acid)."
here is a recipe i have done once and it worked great but im lazy its master thias reciper for all honey oils to be pure
Making Marijuana Cannabis Honey Oil Like A Pro, It does not matter how you started making marijuana honey oil,
if you have done this your not done ! If its Butane , Iso , or grain
if you have not taken these simple steps than you are not finished yet,
one more thing to do now, to get those impurities out , & Have
those yummy Flavor's locked in and oh that Golden magic color.
by Master Thai
Isomerization of Raw Plant Extract
Supply list
1.) Large Glass Beaker (500 to 1000 mils.)
2.) Large eulmeyer Flask (500 to 1000 mils.) With vacuum filter and funnel.
3.) #50 filter papers
4.) Length of clear hose ( to connect to vacuum )
5.) Charcoal / norit (activated charcoal, must be lab-grade only )
6.) 100% Grain alcohol ( Everclear )
7.) Sulfuric or Hydrochloric Acid ( bye in small quantities, a little goes a long ways)
8.) Scale ( triple beam or lab-jewlery scale only , perfer Triple Beam, No batteries to run down and give a mis-reads of weight's )
9.) Calculater
10.) Pencil & Note Pad
Method
1. Using raw extract weigh mass and take note.
2. Add 10 times this amount of grain alcohol & mix with raw extract in beaker.
3. Take a pH reading & write this down.
4. Using a small dropper, Add 1 drop of Acid, (slowly , this will react & get warm, SO BE CAUTIOUS) for each gram of raw extract & stir with glass rod.
5. Using a volume of charcoal / norit equal to the solution ( raw extract/ alcohol mix ) Add this to the solution and agitate for 2 or 3 minutes.
6. Take a second pH reading subtracts from first reading.
The difference is a good starting point to add Bicarbonate of Soda at a 1 to 1 ratio, Or 1 gram of Soda to 1 drop of Acid.
Add Soda slowly ( this too will react ).
Take a third pH reading ; then adjust the pH according to the first reading using Soda or Acid to match the first reading.
You should achieve a pH of 6.5 to 7.5 The sweet stuff is at a range around 6.6 or 6.8 range.
7. Set up the eulmeyer flask with filter and vacuum source ( tap water is your source ) Then turn water on & pour solution slowly into funnel portion of the flask. At this point when you have pulled the solution into the flask, rinse the beaker with a small amount of alcohol to get the remainder.
8. At this point the alcohol can be evaporated if necessary or reduced to the desired consistency depending on intent of use.
The infra red lite Master uses works well - very good here.(A must do-have)
9. Clean up all equipment and put away and now enjoy :
REAL HONEY OIL, its not fake or halfway like ALL other methods shown here in this section.
Like Master Thai's Grandfather said to him a long time ago :
If your going to do it half way than just dont do it at all
Be a pro not a poser Grasshopper
Advise well taken.
So now you know how it works ( Real Honey Oil ) enjoy your efforts, and relax with the REAL Stuff and see what you all been missing.
peace ,
Master Thai
ENDLSCYCLE
Well-Known Member
Think we need that video!!!
cannabineer
Ursus marijanus
Solubility, solvency and and polarity are not the same thing. cn
Matt Rize
Hashmaster
Yes, but they are all related intimately.
researchkitty
Well-Known Member
I get a call from Ms Kitty this morning, she finds 4 ounces of bubble hash in some old jars that we must have lost and not even noticed..... Bad time to be out of town, I want to go make it into oil!
When putting this in a tube, to "convert" to honey oil, is there anything I should watch out for or do differently? I planned to just add it to the tube when I ran the half pound of endless sky popcorn nugs......... (I never sell popcorn, always sell colas)........
When putting this in a tube, to "convert" to honey oil, is there anything I should watch out for or do differently? I planned to just add it to the tube when I ran the half pound of endless sky popcorn nugs......... (I never sell popcorn, always sell colas)........
cannabineer
Ursus marijanus
I've been poking around online, and I cannot find anything one way or another about polarity and temperature in pure liquid phases. What I did find was a suggestion that the dielectric constant of a liquid is dependent on temperature. If that is so, then my entire argument was predicated on a false idea: that the dielectric constant is, well, constant.
I do wish i could find an experieental graph for dielectric constant v. teperature in a liquid alkane hydrocarbon ... my suspicion is that it's pretty flat. For highly polar solvents, like acetone, alcohols etc. ... I can easily see a steeper slope. In any case, please accept this as a concession. cn
cannabineer
Ursus marijanus
Since it's old and might have lost some punch, i would extract it separately and evaluate. I would add some filler/filtering aid, either diatomaceous earth or shredded toilet paper, then flush.I get a call from Ms Kitty this morning, she finds 4 ounces of bubble hash in some old jars that we must have lost and not even noticed..... Bad time to be out of town, I want to go make it into oil!
When putting this in a tube, to "convert" to honey oil, is there anything I should watch out for or do differently? I planned to just add it to the tube when I ran the half pound of endless sky popcorn nugs......... (I never sell popcorn, always sell colas)........
Best oil-style extract I ever made was doing a cold pentane solution of some high-quality bubble, and allowing the particualtes to simply settle, then cold vacuum removal of the pentane. cn
Matt Rize
Hashmaster
you're my favorite!
make me think about stuff, and last night i stumbled on some gold that explains somethings about why my hash looks the way it does. so thank you for not taking my word as truth. research!
researchkitty
Well-Known Member
Thanks!
Endless Sky is very nice. 1200ppm max mid flower, 900ppm when you begin flower, 56 days later you've got chunky chunky colas and a great yield. I'll find out how the oil is soon enough. Note I said 56 days, the strain used to be a 42-45 day flower, Greenthumb lost that mother, so now its a 56-60 day flowerer like most others. As a result of this, I'd rather grow Bubblelicious or something (which we happen to have 4 mothers of now
). Fun to try but not for the price.
Sr. Verde
Well-Known Member
Thanks!
Endless Sky is very nice. 1200ppm max mid flower, 900ppm when you begin flower, 56 days later you've got chunky chunky colas and a great yield. I'll find out how the oil is soon enough. Note I said 56 days, the strain used to be a 42-45 day flower, Greenthumb lost that mother, so now its a 56-60 day flowerer like most others. As a result of this, I'd rather grow Bubblelicious or something (which we happen to have 4 mothers of now
That sucksss... lost the mother
The 45 day flower with the fat yield is what was the most appealing to me in the first place.........
man i have some nugget here.. corleone kush... i need to run this into oil...... going to post some pics here in a second