STAY AWAY FROM LED's!!!!!

<h3>Vegetation & Flowering

Model Light Distance from Plants Maximum Area Light Footprint 90W 12" - 24" 16 sq. ft. 4' x 4' 180W 12" - 36" 25 sq. ft. 5' x 5' 350W 18" - 48" 30 sq. ft. 6' x 5' 700W 24" - 60" 63 sq. ft. 9' x 7'

Fruiting (Heavy Yield) </h3>Model Light Distance from Plants Maximum Area Light Footprint 90W 6" or closer 4 sq. ft. 2' x 2' 180W 6" - 18" 9 sq. ft. 3' x 3' 350W 6" - 18" 16 sq. ft. 4' x 4' 700W 10" - 18" 24 sq. ft. 6' x 4'
 
I've seen a lot of folks get ass fucked with LED's, I would love to grow cooler, and cheaper, with mad ass yields, but until the market straightens itself out, I just don't have any interest in spending X number of dollars, and praying that I'm not wasting months of my time. Kudos to those of you who are doing so. I believe LEDs are the future, but right now I don't believe they are my future.
 
So im brand new to this, i was thinking...can i use a 90 watt led for 1-2 plants and maybe add 3-4 20watt halogen lights for heat? or i have a aero garden...and led aero garden mixes??
 
I can still grow more "grams per dollar" with HID lights. The saving on electric would take several years to pay for the costly LEDs. I want to run my A/C most the time. In fact we size the A/C unit based on the number of lights (sealed environment agriculture). New units are great! Dehumidifies and runs all the air through a UV-C lit box.

I'm willing to bet I can produce near ten times what an LED grower can on the same budget. If you are an LED grower that thinks he's getting more 'grams per dollar' you're doing your math wrong :bongsmilie:

If anybody wants to take me up on the 'LED challenge' I'm willing to set up a 'pro' grow room specifically to prove my point. If I lose I will personally by the winner a top of the line LED lighting system ($3,500).
 
The anti led people just don't understand how leds work. Now, I do think that led technology has a ways to go...but it has many advantages.

Watt for watt leds out perform hid..no question. I'll use 1000 watts of led, you use 1000 watt of hid. Cost of the leds will SUCK however.
Of course, you'll be spending $4400 over the next ten years replacing your hortilux bulb..(you DO replace it every 4 grows or so, don't you?)
And you'll be spending another $3600 on cooling that I don't have to worry about in that 10 years (that's at $30 a month..probably low) And my co2 will work better without having to vent it out with the heat...Led's make lots of sense..if you think long term.

The problem is that people want 90 watts of led to equal 400 watts of hid..that doesn't happen. I give 90 watts of led about 200watts of hid value. but the hid has a bigger foot print. So I'll need 5 led's to cover a square meter pretty well...same as a 400hid. Now we are at 450 watts of led vs 400 watts of hid.

Remember, hid lighting wasn't invented for plants. Even the hortilux isn't really putting out a great percentage of USABLE light. But it does put out MORE light. The key is getting enough led lighting to put out ENOUGH light. To do that, you need multiple units of led..and the cost is prohibitive for most.

20 years from now, no one will use HID. Led prices will come down, they will have the correct colors dialed in, and LED's will be the shit.
 
I think the sun is the best light. Outside of that things get very specific based on setups. LEDs have potential for small indoor grows, and for some people that's great. I for one can't wait until LEDs are affordable enough for me to get something decent for doing a 2 plant thing, you know, because regular bulbs are hot, they explode, you need to have some elaborate setup for cooling..it's a bit messier.
 
I don't use hortilux lamps and your math is way off, an HPS bulb costs me $20 . . .
LED's still don't make sense long term. I can spend $100,000 on solar equipment and neve buy power again, within 20 years or so I'll recoup my investment.
OR
I can take that $100,000 build a grow room, allow $1k/mo for electrical expenses. Within three months I will make back my $100,000. In a year I will make somewhere around 4x my initial investment.
Now if I think 'long term' like you said and maintain my grow, the $100k in 20years will net $10M!!

So what's better 'saving' $100k or making $10M?
 
bob harris said:
The anti led people just don't understand how leds work. Now, I do think that led technology has a ways to go...but it has many advantages.

Watt for watt leds out perform hid..no question. I'll use 1000 watts of led, you use 1000 watt of hid. Cost of the leds will SUCK however.
Of course, you'll be spending $4400 over the next ten years replacing your hortilux bulb..(you DO replace it every 4 grows or so, don't you?)
And you'll be spending another $3600 on cooling that I don't have to worry about in that 10 years (that's at $30 a month..probably low) And my co2 will work better without having to vent it out with the heat...Led's make lots of sense..if you think long term.

The problem is that people want 90 watts of led to equal 400 watts of hid..that doesn't happen. I give 90 watts of led about 200watts of hid value. but the hid has a bigger foot print. So I'll need 5 led's to cover a square meter pretty well...same as a 400hid. Now we are at 450 watts of led vs 400 watts of hid.

Remember, hid lighting wasn't invented for plants. Even the hortilux isn't really putting out a great percentage of USABLE light. But it does put out MORE light. The key is getting enough led lighting to put out ENOUGH light. To do that, you need multiple units of led..and the cost is prohibitive for most.

20 years from now, no one will use HID. Led prices will come down, they will have the correct colors dialed in, and LED's will be the shit.
Click to expand...

*i still have betamax and VHS tapes.. aahh.. those were the days.. NOT, ..glad dont have to lug those ugly things around, cds much cooler :)

--why grow under tech from the 1960s? ..eehh.. growing under street post lighting seems a bit old... couple more years, hoping for HID Sr's back to give out soon.. lol

tootles
 
Maybe someday LED's can compete with HID's...but today is not the day. I'm still waiting to see just one nice sized commercial grow op running LED's to produce HID quality buds. All I hear is about all the great PAR numbers and the like. Nobody wants a new lighting choice more than myself and the other commercial growers in my group. But, it's just not there yet. I don't like needing 64,000btu A/C units, but I don't have a choice. We're getting ready to add 20 more lights to our bloom room and I've been holding off in the hopes of LED or induction producing a light that can do what my HPS's do. But, it's just not happening. When we add it will be flip boxes and 20 more HPS's. There is a reason that every commercial op you see is lit with HPS's. If LED's could do the job, we'd all be running them. Maybe they're ok for a closet grow, but they have no place in a production facility.
 
NewGrowth said:
I don't use hortilux lamps and your math is way off, an HPS bulb costs me $20 . . .
LED's still don't make sense long term. I can spend $100,000 on solar equipment and neve buy power again, within 20 years or so I'll recoup my investment.
OR
I can take that $100,000 build a grow room, allow $1k/mo for electrical expenses. Within three months I will make back my $100,000. In a year I will make somewhere around 4x my initial investment.
Now if I think 'long term' like you said and maintain my grow, the $100k in 20years will net $10M!!

So what's better 'saving' $100k or making $10M?
Click to expand...

My math was off..only $1200 for a hotilux per year over 10 years...and if your using $20 bulbs..well, good luck with that.
 
Ten years is a long time bob . . . Hey I've been growing cannabis for over ten years! :)
I've used hotilux, digilux, ect. The bulbs I buy are great they have the same spectrum and yield as much. I'm still willing to spend $12,000 over ten years to make $10M.
When LED technology is 'there' I will expound the benifts everywhere I go. Until then my bet is on the new plasma technology; my money in HID.;)
 
collective gardener said:
Maybe someday LED's can compete with HID's...but today is not the day. I'm still waiting to see just one nice sized commercial grow op running LED's to produce HID quality buds. All I hear is about all the great PAR numbers and the like. Nobody wants a new lighting choice more than myself and the other commercial growers in my group. But, it's just not there yet. I don't like needing 64,000btu A/C units, but I don't have a choice. We're getting ready to add 20 more lights to our bloom room and I've been holding off in the hopes of LED or induction producing a light that can do what my HPS's do. But, it's just not happening. When we add it will be flip boxes and 20 more HPS's. There is a reason that every commercial op you see is lit with HPS's. If LED's could do the job, we'd all be running them. Maybe they're ok for a closet grow, but they have no place in a production facility.
Click to expand...

I agree, for big grows leds are out of sight pricey. But for a guy flowering 6 plants at a time....he might be ok.
I think leds are certainly the future.and today is not that day...just sayin..they have some advatages.

I use 2 600watt hps over 6 plants..but I'm adding 4, 100 watt led's for supplemental lighting. Should reduce my cooling costs ( I'll raise the hps some) Less radiant heat should lower soil surface temps, allowing less water use, and allowing the root mass to expand into the upper layer of soil. Should be able to further reduce stretch too.

But I'm retired, got the money to blow, and like to experiment. And my goal is to produce quality..quantity is secondary. I grow sativa for medical purposes (parkinson's) and need high thc/thcv values....low cb values. I use a ton of uvb the final few weeks as well...my strain produces a very motivating effect....no "couchlock" effect at all..but still enough cb value to relieve rigidity...and the theory is that thcv acts a a dopamine regulator...and dopamine is what needs regulating in PD...get the dopamine regulated and mood, "affect" and motivation all improve. At least for me...and roughly 70% of all other PD patients...

Now, if I were a stoner growin "pain" meds..well I'd grow an indica. Less light needed, bigger yields, faster flower times...and much easier to care for. But sativas are the "stuff"...for me.
 
bob harris said:
I agree, for big grows leds are out of sight pricey. But for a guy flowering 6 plants at a time....he might be ok.
I think leds are certainly the future.and today is not that day...just sayin..they have some advatages.

I use 2 600watt hps over 6 plants..but I'm adding 4, 100 watt led's for supplemental lighting. Should reduce my cooling costs ( I'll raise the hps some) Less radiant heat should lower soil surface temps, allowing less water use, and allowing the root mass to expand into the upper layer of soil. Should be able to further reduce stretch too.

But I'm retired, got the money to blow, and like to experiment. And my goal is to produce quality..quantity is secondary. I grow sativa for medical purposes (parkinson's) and need high thc/thcv values....low cb values. I use a ton of uvb the final few weeks as well...my strain produces a very motivating effect....no "couchlock" effect at all..but still enough cb value to relieve rigidity...the theory being that thcv acts a a dopamine regulator...and dopamine is what needs regulating in PD...

Now, if I were a stoner growin "pain" meds..well I'd grow an indica. Less light needed, bigger yields, faster flower times...and much easier to care for. But sativas are the "stuff"...for me.
Click to expand...

Bob, maybe I wasn't clear. The price is not the problem...not by a long shot. 20 new HID's would cost me a little under 10K if I didn't have the flip option. I would gladly spend 40k if I could get that same performance from an LED or induction light. Quality wise, myself, and the dispensaries I deal with, like good sized dense buds. Most LED only buds I've seen have been a tad fluffy.

NEWGROWTH, I assure you, my friend, that $1,000/month of electricity will not give you $33,000 worth of buds per month. This would be doubly true using $20 bulbs. I didn't know people actually bought those things.
 
What sativa's are you growing Bob? Recently grew some Serious bubblegum, kidna reminded me of C99. Nice up high and finished in about 9weeks give or take.
Collective: you're right on that one I spent $1500/mo for just 10k watts in a warehouse. We have an extra cheap rate here now though in our new place. The power company is a co-op and most of what we get is solar. I'm running over 20k watts for $700/mo!! Pretty stoked, prior to that I was filling a gas generator . . .
Ps- bulbs cost $20 because I buy bulk manufacture direct. I believe they retail for around $100/ea well after they're re-branded ;)
 
collective gardener said:
Bob, maybe I wasn't clear. The price is not the problem...not by a long shot. 20 new HID's would cost me a little under 10K if I didn't have the flip option. I would gladly spend 40k if I could get that same performance from an LED or induction light. Quality wise, myself, and the dispensaries I deal with, like good sized dense buds. Most LED only buds I've seen have been a tad fluffy.

NEWGROWTH, I assure you, my friend, that $1,000/month of electricity will not give you $33,000 worth of buds per month. This would be doubly true using $20 bulbs. I didn't know people actually bought those things.
Click to expand...

I understood your point...and I know how the dispensary like their meds..bag appeal..and until they can manufacture led's systems with enough penetration power, you won't get the density and cluster size that dispensaries prefer. It's why i pointed out I'm keeping the 50 watts psf of HPS.
Eventually, they will need to develop high enough wattage, correct spectrum diodes for penetration.

No kiddin on the electric usage , I use $450 a month (house and grow) flowering 6 plants....you wanna grow WHAT for $1100 a month...
 
NewGrowth said:
What sativa's are you growing Bob? Recently grew some Serious bubblegum, kidna reminded me of C99. Nice up high and finished in about 9weeks give or take.
Collective: you're right on that one I spent $1500/mo for just 10k watts in a warehouse. We have an extra cheap rate here now though in our new place. The power company is a co-op and most of what we get is solar. I'm running over 20k watts for $700/mo!! Pretty stoked, prior to that I was filling a gas generator . . .
Ps- bulbs cost $20 because I buy bulk manufacture direct. I believe they retail for around $100/ea well after they're re-branded ;)
Click to expand...


I'm jealous of those power rates. I, too, run 20k, and my power bill is always around $2,000.

I've been using Digilux bulbs now for about 6 months. I just tested them today, and they've only lost 5% lumens on the light meter. I am super stoked. I've used Hortis my whole life and never had that performance.
 
Lot's of brands out there, lots of small time makers too, and lots of cheap scam-like deals On LED arrays made in China as far as I have read the last couple of years. We've all seen successful LED grows and we've seen bad ones.

I think the main problem with LEDs is that it's a relatively new technology introduced to growers and the fact that it doesn't take much technical knowledge to go into the business of making LED panels, BUT, it does take some technical "KNOW-HOW" to make a solid performance panel. And this is why in my opinion a lot of makers get it wrong.

Hell it might be the future, but for now it's still a niche as far as I'm concerned.

P.S: I've never used LEDs and don't intend to bash them or anything, just my 2 cents.
 
bob harris said:
I understood your point...and I know how the dispensary like their meds..bag appeal..and until they can manufacture led's systems with enough penetration power, you won't get the density and cluster size that dispensaries prefer. It's why i pointed out I'm keeping the 50 watts psf of HPS.
Eventually, they will need to develop high enough wattage, correct spectrum diodes for penetration.

No kiddin on the electric usage , I use $450 a month (house and grow) flowering 6 plants....you wanna grow WHAT for $1100 a month...
Click to expand...

I really want LEDs to get to the point where we can use them. The cooling component of my power bill is probably $400+. You take that out and the bulb changes, before long I'd save enough money to repay just about any initial purchase price for the LEDs. I have a feeling induction lighting may actually soon surpass LEDs. If we look at what T-5's have done for flourescent lighting it's obvious that flourescent type lighting has a future.

Much of the new lighting potential will be dependant on canopy shape and plant size. About 15 years ago I grew a 4x8 test tray of Northern Lights. I planted 9 plants per sq ft in 4" rockwool blocks. The plants were only vegged to 6" tall. At completion they were under 12". BUT, that tray yielded just under 5lbs! My point is, it doesn't take much light penetration to grow a highly productive canopy like that one. Current LED and/or induction lighting might be able to pull that off. Unfortunately, my current op is legal and I have plant count to consider. 288 plants in one 4x8 tray would use almost my whole limit in 1/6th my bloom room space. With plant count limitations we're seeing bigger and bigger plants. This is going the other direction from what LED and induction would be good for. In fact, I think plants may be getting bigger faster than LEDs are getting brighter. LOL.
 
Yah the bulbs are mostly manufactured in china now. All the high end ones with a few exceptions made in Germany, USA, and Japan. The trend has been overwhelmingly to china however and the quality is often just as high. I would have to do some checking but I could probably find the Digilux plant in China. R&M just designed an excellent bulb. Chinese manufacturers are not to loyal to their overseas customers, here in the USA we sell brands while China sells goods. If you are an international mogul there is somebody to make anything in China, bring them the 'eye hortilux' and they will make them faster and cheaper.
I am very particular not to pay for brands because the plants don't care if there is a hologram on the box . . . BUT I so appreciate quality equipment.
 
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