Stop Blaming 'Both Sides' for America's Climate Failures

travisw

Well-Known Member
So sheep didn’t graze there? You don’t “farm” sheep, city boy


Plenty of people farm sheep little sock puppet, but I guess what you do with yours, is your business.

According to the 2012 Census of Agriculture, there are 84,338 sheep farms in the United States.
http://www.sheep101.info/farm.html

Year on a Sheep Farm
Spend a year on a sheep farm
Sheep farming is a demanding and varied lifestyle.
https://www.nationalsheep.org.uk/know-your-sheep/year-on-a-sheep-farm/

Sheep farming is the raising and breeding of domestic sheep. It is a branch of animal husbandry.Sheep are raised principally for their meat (lamb and mutton), milk (sheep's milk), and fiber (wool). ... The major sources of income for a farm will come from the sale of lambs and the shearing of sheep for their wool.
Sheep farming - Wikipedia
 

zeddd

Well-Known Member


Plenty of people farm sheep little sock puppet, but I guess what you do with yours, is your business.

According to the 2012 Census of Agriculture, there are 84,338 sheep farms in the United States.
http://www.sheep101.info/farm.html

Year on a Sheep Farm
Spend a year on a sheep farm
Sheep farming is a demanding and varied lifestyle.
https://www.nationalsheep.org.uk/know-your-sheep/year-on-a-sheep-farm/

Sheep farming is the raising and breeding of domestic sheep. It is a branch of animal husbandry.Sheep are raised principally for their meat (lamb and mutton), milk (sheep's milk), and fiber (wool). ... The major sources of income for a farm will come from the sale of lambs and the shearing of sheep for their wool.
Sheep farming - Wikipedia
So there are 4 crops; meat, milk, wool and photons, on a Sheep/ Solar Farm
 

somedude584

Well-Known Member
An interesting take.

I respectfully disagree about nuclear power; we humans simply cannot afford the long term costs, which include not just radiation and contamination but the all too ready access to nuclear weapons.

Fusion power is only 20 years away... and it always has been! Maybe we'll get there in my lifetime but it's frankly looking like a long shot.

Solar and wind are HERE, they're NOW, they're cheaper than fossil fuels today and still improving. The only obstacle to powering the entire human race is storage.

Electric cars are the ultimate flexible fueled vehicles; anything that makes electricity can power them. They're also a decent stopgap storage system; Denmark uses its national fleet of electric cars to buffer their own wind and solar powered grid to great effectiveness.

Agreed that we humans need to wean ourselves from the oil teat ASAP, for environmental reasons if nothing else.

My politics are well to the left of the current Democratic Party establishment, so you'll get few arguments from me there. I suspect that both parties will quickly become more responsive to the majority of our population if we can manage to get money out of politics. It's a tall order but I believe it is an essential prerequisite for moving away from oil. After all, it's profitable- and those profits can and are used to buy political control.

Finally, things ARE in dire straits. It's time to get moving right now, long before our kids wake up one day and realize there is no ecosystem left for us to live on.
You can't make bombs from thorium reactors, it is the reason that all the governments in the world have chosen to go for more fissile materials such as uranium and plutonium.

Solar and wind are cheaper than fossil fuels, with subsidies, and between our electric grid and storage issues, the cost of renovating the entire grid to cater to a full electric society is astronomical, and those costs must be factored in, too, because they will be passed on to the consumer in higher electric rates. Not that I disagree with the need to renovate our electric grid in the States, as well as hardening it, but it is a reality and it must be factored in to the economics of transitioning to solar and wind, which by and large, don't make sense yet. Furthermore, solar requires large amount of land to meet the needs of entire nations, which could lead to deforestation and destruction of habitat, and wind has had unintended side effects as well. Yes, yes, rooftop solar. It's not enough nor is it economically feasible at the moment. Destruction of ocean floors will become more and more common as we move more towards offshore wind turbines, but you won't see it, so you won't care.

Electric vehicles are purely a gimmick. They're blown out of the water by hydrogen vehicles. The materials to mass produce electric vehicles for billions of people are rare and finite, requiring intensive mining efforts to extract, and are located in poor, unregulated countries that have no regard for the environment. When you refer to this administrations lack of regard for the environment, I assure you, these nations which will be exploited for lithium and cobalt make America's political landscape seem as if its ran by the Green Party, and if you think that electric vehicle manufacturers care about the sourcing of their materials, you're living in a fantasy land.

Your comment singling out the lobbying power of big oil is amusing, merely for lack of foresight (and hindsight) that renewable energy companies are doing the same thing, you're just okay with it because you agree with their agenda. Renewable companies have already bled billions and billions from our coffers and haven't paid off any large dividends. It's about money for them, too, and they play by the same rules as big oil, I guarantee you.

I believe you misinterpreted my comment about the average American's political beliefs. You're not in the majority if you're to the far left, as you just claimed to be. Nor are most of the staunch Donald Trump supporters, who are to the far right. The majority of the nation is in between the two, fiscally conservative and socially liberal. I think if you spoke to people who voted for both Clinton and Trump, you'd find that to be largely true, neither had a candidate who represented them accurately which is part of the problem.

Historically the situation in our nation has precedent in the Wiemar Republic of Germany. The Communists were a fringe party to the left, and the Nationalists were a fringe party to the right. Neither side had control of a majority, but each committed actions that pushed more and more to one side or the other, ending up with Hitler finding himself in control of the Nation. This should serve as a warning to our Nation today of what two fringe ideologies can cause.

I'm going to leave you with some reading on thorium reactors, as well as some recent work on fusion, in an effort to hopefully educate you and lift some of your anti-nuclear indoctrination (which ironically comes from big oil lol).

Remember, we don't have to agree upon everything, the only thing we need to agree upon is that we're both entitled our opinions. You won't be more likely to convince anyone of your opinion if you don't show respect to those who disagree with you.

Fusion breakthroughs
https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/energy/a27961/mit-nuclear-fusion-experiment-increases-efficiency/
https://phys.org/news/2017-09-superconducting-magnets-future.html
https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2017/04/12/contained-nuclear-fusion-on-earth-isnt-just-possible-its-been-done-repeatedly/#8fd7bfb4cfd5
https://www.chemistryworld.com/news/graphene-sieves-deuterium-from-hydrogen/9308.article

Thorium reactors
https://newatlas.com/thorium-reactor-recycle-plutonium/53078/
https://www.technologyreview.com/s/602051/fail-safe-nuclear-power/
http://science.sciencemag.org/content/350/6262/726.full?ijkey=f/cMPPBEQxEyM&keytype=ref&siteid=sci
 

somedude584

Well-Known Member
Iter is expecting first plasma in 2025.

Its literally the most complicated machine humanity has ever built, the magnets alone weight something like 45 tons.

Solar, wind, tide and fusion combo is what I expect we'll arrive at someday in the next 100 years.

What's left of the oil can be used for plastics then.


A "power wall" and 4KW worth of panels will set you back less than 20k and in most places would be sufficient to live completely off grid.
As long as the sun is shining and you're fortunate enough to live in a hyper efficient house as well as having southern facing roofs, yeah. For most people, no.

You can't power planes with solar.

You can't power ships with solar.

You can't power everything with solar. Oil is not going away until we can miniaturize nuclear technology and make it economically feasible.

Oil is used in thousands of products. It's used in everything from aspirin to toothpaste, guitar strings to adhesives.
 

somedude584

Well-Known Member
So sheep didn’t graze there? You don’t “farm” sheep, city boy
Pretending a technicality invalidates the claim is rather childish, wouldn't you say?

There’s a reason farmers don’t plant their crops under tree
Actually, in permaculture, it's very common to plant crops under trees. Many plants enjoy full or partial shade, and using proper plants can help protect a tree from insect and animal damage. Quit being ignorant just to be ignorant, please.
 

SneekyNinja

Well-Known Member
As long as the sun is shining and you're fortunate enough to live in a hyper efficient house as well as having southern facing roofs, yeah. For most people, no.

You can't power planes with solar.

You can't power ships with solar.

You can't power everything with solar. Oil is not going away until we can miniaturize nuclear technology and make it economically feasible.

Oil is used in thousands of products. It's used in everything from aspirin to toothpaste, guitar strings to adhesives.
That's what we call small thinking, sweetheart. If all the cars, trucks, homes, etc stopped needing fossil fuels the price of kerosene for planes would fall through the floor, making air travel/logistics an even cheaper option.

Win win.

And you can't power a ship with solar? Of course you can, they've a huge surface area and spend much time docked. If you topped up the batteries in port and used on board solar to at least reduce the rate of discharge...how is this not feasible?

The only places solar isn't feasible is where the w sq/m is significantly below 900.
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
That's what we call small thinking, sweetheart. If all the cars, trucks, homes, etc stopped needing fossil fuels the price of kerosene for planes would fall through the floor, making air travel/logistics an even cheaper option.

Win win.

And you can't power a ship with solar? Of course you can, they've a huge surface area and spend much time docked. If you topped up the batteries in port and used on board solar to at least reduce the rate of discharge...how is this not feasible?

The only places solar isn't feasible is where the w sq/m is significantly below 900.
I don't think there is one answer. We really need a technical review and a plan that includes the cost of making this country fossil fuel free. It takes more than just technology but also changes in how or where we live and grow food. What I'd like to see is the will to do at least submit a this in Washington.

On these things I'm pretty sure:
We don't need nuclear.
Container cargo ships can't be converted to solar.
 

peabody2018

Well-Known Member
As long as the sun is shining and you're fortunate enough to live in a hyper efficient house as well as having southern facing roofs, yeah. For most people, no.

You can't power planes with solar.

You can't power ships with solar.

You can't power everything with solar. Oil is not going away until we can miniaturize nuclear technology and make it economically feasible.

Oil is used in thousands of products. It's used in everything from aspirin to toothpaste, guitar strings to adhesives.
You can power ships with wind.
 

SneekyNinja

Well-Known Member
I don't think there is one answer. We really need a technical review and a plan that includes the cost of making this country fossil fuel free. It takes more than just technology but also changes in how or where we live and grow food. What I'd like to see is the will to do at least submit a this in Washington.

On these things I'm pretty sure:
We don't need nuclear.
Container cargo ships can't be converted to solar.
Nuclear isn't as bad as it seems for the amount of power produced compared to waste produced, it's sub optimal but still light years better than regular fossil fuels.

And I still see no reason why you couldn't run a container ship on solar, electric motors even produce FAR more torque than ICEs.
 

peabody2018

Well-Known Member
Pretending a technicality invalidates the claim is rather childish, wouldn't you say?



Actually, in permaculture, it's very common to plant crops under trees. Many plants enjoy full or partial shade, and using proper plants can help protect a tree from insect and animal damage. Quit being ignorant just to be ignorant, please.
Not many food plants are grown in shade. Almost none, actually. Your “alternate facts” is a false argument. Adding an insult shows you for the dishonest person you are.
 

peabody2018

Well-Known Member
Nuclear isn't as bad as it seems for the amount of power produced compared to waste produced, it's sub optimal but still light years better than regular fossil fuels.

And I still see no reason why you couldn't run a container ship on solar, electric motors even produce FAR more torque than ICEs.
Torque isn’t even part of the equation.
 

somedude584

Well-Known Member
Nuclear isn't as bad as it seems for the amount of power produced compared to waste produced, it's sub optimal but still light years better than regular fossil fuels.

And I still see no reason why you couldn't run a container ship on solar, electric motors even produce FAR more torque than ICEs.
I agree that solar and electric can provide benefits to ships but the vast majority of ships will not benefit from solar or wind.
 

somedude584

Well-Known Member
I don't think there is one answer. We really need a technical review and a plan that includes the cost of making this country fossil fuel free. It takes more than just technology but also changes in how or where we live and grow food. What I'd like to see is the will to do at least submit a this in Washington.

On these things I'm pretty sure:
We don't need nuclear.
Container cargo ships can't be converted to solar.
Ignoring investing in nuclear to produce fusion - limitless energy - is just too ignorant for me to grasp, man, I'm sorry. I can't debate with someone that says "we don't need nuclear." Now, if you said, we don't need outdated nuclear power plants like the one at Fukushima and the one at Three Mile Island, then yeah, sure, we can be friends, because those were both outdated nuclear power plants that don't compare to current generation 3 plants.
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Ignoring investing in nuclear to produce fusion - limitless energy - is just too ignorant for me to grasp, man, I'm sorry. I can't debate with someone that says "we don't need nuclear." Now, if you said, we don't need outdated nuclear power plants like the one at Fukushima and the one at Three Mile Island, then yeah, sure, we can be friends, because those were both outdated nuclear power plants that don't compare to current generation 3 plants.
Fusion? What commercial fusion reactors are on line? Fusion has always been just around the corner. I'm all for investing in research but the fact is, we don't need it. There is plenty of solar energy available and we aren't even close to using even a significant fraction of that.

Let's talk about fusion when a working prototype is online, the bugs have been worked out and a price tag is available.

Conceptually, we don't need nuclear at all. Go look at the numbers. From past experience, it's too expensive, dangerous and the timeline is too long. I'm not being disrespectful when I say this. Too bad for you that you can't respect a valid alternate opinion.

There is room for debate and I'd like to see our country have it. The debate isn't taking place in the right forums because of the way Republicans have throttled it. We are on the side of eliminating fossil fuels and disagree about how. I think that puts us on the same side for now.
 

somedude584

Well-Known Member
Fusion? What commercial fusion reactors are on line? Fusion has always been just around the corner. I'm all for investing in research but the fact is, we don't need it. There is plenty of solar energy available and we aren't even close to using even a significant fraction of that.

Let's talk about fusion when a working prototype is online, the bugs have been worked out and a price tag is available.

Conceptually, we don't need nuclear at all. Go look at the numbers. From past experience, it's too expensive, dangerous and the timeline is too long. I'm not being disrespectful when I say this. Too bad for you that you can't respect a valid alternate opinion.

There is room for debate and I'd like to see our country have it. The debate isn't taking place in the right forums because of the way Republicans have throttled it. We are on the side of eliminating fossil fuels and disagree about how. I think that puts us on the same side for now.
What can power cargo ships?
What can power planes?
What can power space craft?
What can power habitats on other planets?
What can power massive experiments like CERN?

It's nuclear. Fission or fusion, unless you'd prefer fossil fuels to continue on.

I honest to god don't understand how you're suggesting we don't need nuclear. The only reason its become "too expensive" is because of political pressure against developing it which has lead to the economy of scale tipping away from nuclear whereas it used to tip in favor of it. Fear mongering against nuclear has caused it to be too inexpensive, not its actual capabilities. You've fallen for the fear mongering, badly, and have some how fallen victim to the "renewables can solve everything!!!" meme. It's false, unless you know of a battery (or other technology other than fossil fuels) that can power a plane or cargo ship. Nuclear is the present and future, always has, always will be. I'm just failing to grasp how you actually believe otherwise.
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
What can power cargo ships?
What can power planes?
What can power space craft?
What can power habitats on other planets?
What can power massive experiments like CERN?

It's nuclear. Fission or fusion, unless you'd prefer fossil fuels to continue on.

I honest to god don't understand how you're suggesting we don't need nuclear. The only reason its become "too expensive" is because of political pressure against developing it which has lead to the economy of scale tipping away from nuclear whereas it used to tip in favor of it. Fear mongering against nuclear has caused it to be too inexpensive, not its actual capabilities. You've fallen for the fear mongering, badly, and have some how fallen victim to the "renewables can solve everything!!!" meme. It's false, unless you know of a battery (or other technology other than fossil fuels) that can power a plane or cargo ship. Nuclear is the present and future, always has, always will be. I'm just failing to grasp how you actually believe otherwise.
We are on the same side regarding the need to reduce dependency on fossil fuels.

Regarding the other stuff you said, The answer to most of it isn't nuclear. Not the tech we have today. The other stuff, fusion, thorium aren't ready for commercialization. I'm all for funding research and will be glad if we put prototypes online that prove that kind of tech are ready for scale-up. Until then, we don't have anything other than fossil fuels to power planes. Space craft and habitats? Well, at the moment that's all just sci fi. We don't know enough to safely put humans in space long term.

Through a combination of expanding the solar grid, reduction in use and increased efficiency, solar is ready to power the US. Can you honestly say that fusion is ready? Is thorium ready to go full scale commercial? I can't find anything out there that says it's ready

https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2017/09/09/why-nuclear-energy-may-not-be-our-best-alternative-option-to-fossil-fuel/#338af74d75d0

Nuclear power is a 1970’s solution and hasn’t aged well. It hasn’t become cheaper, more flexible or more ubiquitous and it won’t. It’s failing in the marketplace, not due to environmentalists. Frankly, environmentalists are noise compared to the structural problems with the industry.

Renewables are the answer because they are massively scalable, cheap and solving the problems of renewables is easier than solving the problems of nuclear that is down the road.

The big kerfuffle recently about whether we can get to 100% renewables by 2050 or not was very interesting for one reason. Everyone involved agreed we could easily get to 80%. The question was how hard the last 20% would be.

But getting to 80% globally is a huge advance and is much cheaper to achieve than trying to ride the dead horses of nuclear and carbon capture on fossil fuels. We have to find ways to take carbon out of the atmosphere, likely soil carbon capture with global transformation of agricultural approaches, but it can’t be considered a successful part of the solution to get our emissions to zero.
 
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