Strip LEDs in the garden of Paradise

sethimus said:

that sucks man, here in germany renting is nearly like owning, owners can still inspect their property, but they need a reason and they need to give you a 2 weeks notice, just switch the locks and you're safe

Click to expand...

We get two weeks notice. It's standard here. The law states up to four inspections a year. If you are lucky, you get a good agent or owner and they only inspect the place once a year or so. But usually, when you first move in, they will inspect every three months to make sure everything is OK. If it is, you may not get another inspection for six months or more. Ofen, it's not as bad as it sounds.

KonopCh said:

@wietefras how much lumens (or umol/s) is acceptable range for "I don't want popcorn" ?

Click to expand...

I have seen medical grows working with as low as 250umol/s/m2. Not sure if they got a lot of popcorn though. Benefit is that the plants process the light a bit more efficient at lower light intensities.

Even if you go for 1000PPFD on top you can still get popcorn lower on the plant though.

Prawn Connery said:

Mate, I've always said whatever works, works.

There is the equivalent of 4x QB288 boards spread pretty evenly over about twice the area of a HLG-550 in my set-up (running at a similar wattage), so I'm guessing the coverage is pretty even and appears to benefit from being mounted closer to the canopy. There shouldn't be as many hot and cold spots as the boards, nor should the light bleed off as much towards the edges - especially as it's being reflected back in by the walls of the tent.

View attachment 4061329

View attachment 4061330
The frame pretty much fills the 4'x2' space. So if anything, I think I would benefit more from dimming the drivers and leaving the frames where they are than raising them with the same power - assuming there is too much light in there to begin with.

I don't have a PAR meter, so have no idea. But the plants - so far - are pretty good.

Remember also that only the tallest buds are 6" or so away from the LEDs - most of the other buds are a good 12" or more away. The closer I can get to the top buds without burning or bleaching them, the more the lower buds will benefit. That is, looking at the canopy as a whole, and not just the highest points.

Now, as this is my first horizontal grow for, like, ever (well over 15 years!), I'm hoping to get things dialled in as I progress. That could mean running a net and trimming the plants a bit more to get a more even canopy height.

Right now it's not too bad, but as we all know, everything can be improved with time and experience.

Click to expand...

All 3000k ? no blend..?

wietefras said:

I have seen medical grows working with as low as 250umol/s/m2. Not sure if they got a lot of popcorn though. Benefit is that the plants process the light a bit more efficient at lower light intensities.

Even if you go for 1000PPFD on top you can still get popcorn lower on the plant though.

Click to expand...

Wonder if potency would vary 250 to 1000 umol ?

wietefras said:

That's not an "except" that's exactly what I said. You determine the height of the fixture by desired uniformity. Which then is a compromise between uniformity and wall losses. With strips (or even COBs if you have enough of them) that will be a few inches and with those boards it's at least 18", but either way it's still uniformity first.

What you should NOT do is to squash the lights as close as possible on the plants so they just don't bleach right under the lights. You will still get poorly developed plants everywhere that way. Uniformity is more important than a few percent of light.

With strips (or many cobs) it's only 1 or 2 inches difference anyway. Also, if you have a grow area with properly direct (!) reflective walls then it doesn't matter so much either.

I also agree that you should go for uniformity on the average canopy. It's no use lifting the whole light for a few higher tops.

Click to expand...

OK, let's split hairs. The 260 board - if you average all the numbers - has more than a 68% increase over a 2x2. But the peak PPFD readings are more than double. Which was my point.

Uniformity is only beneficial if you have a uniform canopy - so it's not always uniformity first. Many people have staggered grows.

That said, I did have uniformity in mind when I built my frame - which is why I went with a ratio of 3:1 H series compared to double-row F Series strips for the same consumption - as I planned to have a reasonably uniform canopy . . . but I also made allowances for the cola centre-lines, as I wasn't planning on topping.

So I'm not sure who you were delivering your uniformity lecture to, but it wasn't me.

In all my years of growing, higher light intensity - sans heat stress - has always equalled higher density and yield - right up to the point of requiring supplementary CO2. I've never seen a poorly developed plant "everywhere" under high intensity. You may get bleaching or burning of parts of the plant closest to the light source, but guaranteed the other parts of the plant will develop nicely. That is, you may bleach a few top colas, but everything below will be dense, hard and fully developed.

Of course, up until now, my observations have been limited to HIDs that will generally induce heat stress before light intensity becomes an issue. But even then, I've been able to get plants within 6-8" of 1200w of HPS with active (direct air) bulb cooling. Occasionally you will get a few bleached tips. But that's really just a guide to how close you can get the remainder of the bud sites.

And yeah, plants can photosynthesis more efficiently a lower light levels - up to the compensation point - but what is the . . . er, point?

You want big buds, you need big lights. And big roots. Sometimes people forget about the roots.

Dave455 said:

All 3000k ? no blend..?

Click to expand...

Nope, no blend. If anything, I would have preferred to have used 2000k strips for the extra red - which is what I wanted, but I couldn't get them in time.


This is what I wanted: https://www.cutter.com.au/proddetail.php?prod=cut3318

Prawn Connery said:

Mate, I've always said whatever works, works.

Click to expand...

True that!
Anywhere i can see your vertical grows? ive often thought about trying vertical...

I had a lot of grow threads documented back in the day on my old site, planetganja.com - which is, alas, no more.

My last vertical thread was in 2013 here: https://www.rollitup.org/t/haze-harvest-a-few-pounds-of-1200w-vertical-weed.668796/

I hear people saying plants can get too much light, blah, blah, blah, but for years I ran my plants about as close as you could get to bare bulb HPS without any ill-effects and good yields. 1.3-1.4gpw for coco in a hot climate and multi-cropping (usually growing about four different varieties) was not too shabby back then.

The secret was the floor fan blowing straight up with the extractor fan directly overhead creating a cool column of air through the centre which wicked heat directly away from the bare bulbs.

I did find some very early photos of my set-up right before I went from 600w vertical to 1200w. These were taken in about 2008 I think:



You can see where I melted the chord on the lamp, lol. Coincidentally, I think they were mostly Sensi Stars, which is what I'm growing now.

You'll notice I'm using exactly the same coco pot-within-a-pot run-to-waste system then as I am now.

Going to 1200w - hanging another bulb on top of the first - worked really well for multi-cropping. The bottom lamp would light up the indicas, while the top lamp would light up the sativas. I would usually have three of each alternately around the lights.

Here's what the 1200w grow looked like when the hazes in the top photo were removed at harvest time. The leaf damage you can see is mainly wind damage from the fan constantly blowing the leaves against the trellis - though that plant also got a bit nutrient burnt, as all the plants were being fed from the same reservoir with the same strength nutrient. It was always a challenge managing nutrient requirements for different strains.

The fan leaves were a good gauge as to how close to get the plants to the lamps, as they would burn first before the buds. The main thing is, none of the buds were burned or bleached through any of my grows, despite being so close to the lights.

Here's an icmag grow from 2009 that's quite detailed. Not mine, but a direct copy of my design.

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=117026

He did a really good job with a single bulb to grow those hazes. Have a look at the wind-burned leaf on the other side - that's pretty much mandatory in this style of grow.

Prawn Connery said:

OK, let's split hairs. The 260 board - if you average all the numbers - has more than a 68% increase over a 2x2. But the peak PPFD readings are more than double. Which was my point.

Click to expand...

Peak is completely unimportant. Only average counts in the end. In fact, the high peak is a good indication that you are too close.

Uniformity is only beneficial if you have a uniform canopy - so it's not always uniformity first. Many people have staggered grows.

Click to expand...

Come on, that's grasping at straws.

So I'm not sure who you were delivering your uniformity lecture to, but it wasn't me.

Click to expand...

You explained that you would drop the light till the plants started bleaching and then back off a little. As I explained, that's exactly the wrong way to go about this. Hence the "speech".

You want big buds, you need big lights.

Click to expand...

Once the uniformity is correct you control the intensity by how much light you send into the room (wattage and/or efficiency). These are separate topics.

wietefras said:

Peak is completely unimportant. Only average counts in the end. In fact, the high peak is a good indication that you are too close.

Click to expand...

You've missed the point: it was a simple example of light intensity increasing with reduced distance using a PAR meter. Nothing more, nothing less.

wietefras said:

Come on, that's grasping at straws.

Click to expand...

Really? HID growers have been dealing with hot and cold spots for decades and addressing them in many different ways, including reflectors and light movers, tiered grows, stadium style grows, vertical grows, staggered grows, platforms, side-lighting - you name it.

I'm guessing you've never hung a bulb or grown extreme sativas and indicas side-by-side?

Uniformity only works when canopies are uniform. But I've already stated that . . .

wietefras said:

You explained that you would drop the light till the plants started bleaching and then back off a little. As I explained, that's exactly the wrong way to go about this. Hence the "speech".

Click to expand...

Indeed, I am going to do just that! And when I find the best place for my light frame to hang, I'll be sure to let you know

wietefras said:

Once the uniformity is correct you control the intensity by how much light you send into the room (wattage and/or efficiency). These are separate topics.

Click to expand...

Already addressed a few posts above. Thanks for your concern.

Now, if it's alright by you, can I continue to grow?

Prawn Connery said:

You've missed the point: it was a simple example of light intensity increasing with reduced distance using a PAR meter. Nothing more, nothing less.

Click to expand...

No, I reacted to your claim about lowering the lights till bleaching occurs and then backing it off a little.

You indeed keep trying to confuse the matter for who knows what reason, but please just stop doing that. I have no need for a dozen vaguely related added "points" to argue about.

Really? HID growers have been dealing with hot and cold spots for decades and addressing them in many different ways, including reflectors and light movers, tiered grows, stadium style grows, vertical grows, staggered grows, platforms, side-lighting - you name it.

Click to expand...

Like this bit. Needles obfuscation. It's still the same issue. Whatever the setup, you try to correct for uniformity (in whatever way you deem is the correct uniformity) and not to get the highest peak light intensity at one spot.

Now, if it's alright by you, can I continue to grow?

Click to expand...

Sure, if you stop making incorrect statements you won't see me complaining.

Cool, cheers for the pics, dude. I'll deffo give a go one day...its a lot of bud from a small area... reminds me of this absolutely nuts vert grow on RIU from over in ukraine - https://www.rollitup.org/t/vert-600-400-5-plant-from-ukraine-with-love.938560/page-49 interesting thread that one, the mans got some ingenuity...

i need to check out this pot in a pot system, i run to waste into saucers and its not ideal

wietefras said:

No, I reacted to your claim about lowering the lights till bleaching occurs and then backing it off a little.

Click to expand...

And I will counter your reaction by doing exactly that - as I've done for years.

If what you are asserting is that everyone should by a PAR meter and start mapping out their rooms, then I'm afraid I don't agree. Different strains have different light requirements and farmers have been growing crops for millennia without meters.

How? They read the plant.

wietefras said:

You indeed keep trying to confuse the matter for who knows what reason, but please just stop doing that. I have no need for a dozen vaguely related added "points" to argue about.

Like this bit. Needles obfuscation. It's still the same issue. Whatever the setup, you try to correct for uniformity (in whatever way you deem is the correct uniformity) and not to get the highest peak light intensity at one spot.

Click to expand...

For the last time (I hope). I was asked why my frame was so low. I replied "light intensity" and provided an example. My frame is already pretty uniform - so what, exactly, was your point?

By lowering the whole frame (and, in fact, tilting it slightly as I've done), I have increased intensity across pretty much ALL of the canopy plane. Simple trigonometry tells me that with 120-degre diodes spaced about 70mm apart, each row overlaps completely at a distance of about 40mm.

Now don't try to wriggle out of this by claiming you weren't referring to a flat, horizontal plane when you said "boards are not the best example" - because I could find you an example of where the intense central "hot spot" of any board (no different to a single-point HPS bulb) could be used to provide uniform light to a staggered canopy. In which case, PAR reading a flat plane would not be that helpful.

wietefras said:

Sure, if you stop making incorrect statements you won't see me complaining.

Click to expand...

LOL! What does "incorrect" mean? Your way or no way?

Show me what I have done wrong and let's discuss how you think it should be better and why. I'm not an idiot - if there is a better way to do something, I will consider it.

lukio said:

Cool, cheers for the pics, dude. I'll deffo give a go one day...its a lot of bud from a small area... reminds me of this absolutely nuts vert grow on RIU from over in ukraine - https://www.rollitup.org/t/vert-600-400-5-plant-from-ukraine-with-love.938560/page-49 interesting thread that one, the mans got some ingenuity...

i need to check out this pot in a pot system, i run to waste into saucers and its not ideal

Click to expand...

I never yielded 1.6kg in a square metre, but I did get slightly more than that in a 120cmx120cm space. If I'd had the room, I would have set up another 1200w tandem bulb grow next to the original one in a 4'x8' space to make use of the overlapping light.

In fact, the original online vertical growers were a bunch of Canadians who used to hang bare bulbs throughout a room and grow plants in-between using recirculating DWC with bubbler buckets (aka Krusty buckets). I adopted my indoor grow from that.

As far as I am aware, I was the first grower to document the use of a floor fan with an extractor fan above the light - the "column of air" technique - back in 2004. I never saw it before then. Others may have done it, but none had posted. Now everyone does it.

Prawn Connery said:

... more obfuscation attempts ...

Click to expand...

You said that you wanted to drop the light till you started bleaching and then back off a little. That's simply wrong. In whatever way you use the light.

You keep adding in more "points" of which many are incorrect also. Why can't you just stick to the subject?

wietefras said:

You said that you wanted to drop the light till you started bleaching and then back off a little. That's simply wrong. In whatever way you use the light.

You keep adding in more "points" of which many are incorrect also. Why can't you just stick to the subject?

Click to expand...

I think he got the point. That's his style, and what works for him. All this back and forth is not all that productive, isn't it?

Happy holidays guys, keep on growing

Yeah I guess.

On slightly different note. Does an open feed lines soak the whole pot evenly ?
I mean, if to think more about it does drip constantly in one place so whole pot wouldn't be flushed out of the salt bild up. Only part of it. Dripper rings would be better suited for this but would clog up. So its a compromise.
Sorry for the tiny photo, but thats the best I could find to ilustrate what I'm talking about.


Is running two open lines each pot, both with T at the end, for a total of 4 drip points in each pot the best solution we've got ?

Happy Xmas peeps

T-Time said:

On slightly different note. Does an open feed lines soak the whole pot evenly ?
I mean, if to think more about it does drip constantly in one place so whole pot wouldn't be flushed out of the salt bild up. Only part of it. Dripper rings would be better suited for this but would clog up. So its a compromise.
Sorry for the tiny photo, but thats the best I could find to ilustrate what I'm talking about.

View attachment 4061696
So is running two open lines each pot, both with T at the end, for a total of 4 drip points in each pot the best solution we've got ?

Happy Xmas peeps

Click to expand...

Check out the Flora caps, seems to solve this exact issue. A friend of mine strated running those with his 6" Rockwell cubes setup and got me really interested for my next run.