T 5 from Start to Finish

hyroot

Well-Known Member
its like saying your mustang is going to beat my farrari lol and that you have an article to prove it....lol come on we all know what t5's do and we all know what a 1000w hps will do...... enough said really
my homies mustang will beat a ferrarri any day.. What the eye doesn't see is what matters. Like prof said a thousand times. Plants absorb mostly infrared light. Hid's don't produce infrared light. Lumens by definition is visible light. Plants only absorb 5% to 10% of visible light. Therefore 90% of the light coming off the hps is wasted. Hid's are 10% PAR (Photosynthetically Available Radiation) . Our bulbs are around 90% PAR , The sun is 100% PAR. That is scientific fact. Nothing you can say will change how physics and biology work.Have you ever wondered why some people grow the best outdoor and their indoor is crap....... Its because the sun gives off the best light of all.

You have never used or seen these bulbs in action so you have no room or right to say anything negative about them........ You haven't even come up with anything legit to support what you say or even to repute what we say. The spectrum graphs alone should speak for themselves. The pictures definitely do also.

I too use a t5 with aquarium bulbs and in fact I use a 1000w with a hortilux too.I'm doing a side by side comparison. The t5 is winning. Go to my journal and/or Read Profs thread.

Im actually selling my 1000w too, replacing it with more T5's
 

pr0fesseur

Well-Known Member
its like saying your mustang is going to beat my farrari lol and that you have an article to prove it....lol come on we all know what t5's do and we all know what a 1000w hps will do...... enough said really
MY Mustang F*%$#d up your ferrari and always will so STFU
Its a known fact that muscle will CRUSH imports! any race fan will tell you the stock 427&428 super shelby cobra is one of the fastest production cars to date....
[video=youtube;hTf0bj7Ho0U]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTf0bj7Ho0U&feature=related[/video]
Little caveat the shelby has the power to weight ratio of a superbike....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnR-4QT8jwk&feature=related
 

PSF

Member
From recent experience T5 HO's have out preformed a 600/400w HPS/MH setup in a 3'x7'x7' room. The shape of the T5 ballast is identical to the room, and is directly over the canopy. The temperature is much easier to maintain now, resulting in even less energy consumption. I'd recommend them to any other grower
 

hyroot

Well-Known Member
My favorite Ferrari 1998 355 aside from a 1959 410 Super America. (I'm a Ferrari Nut) Too bad I don't own one though

[video=youtube;Oh-4MSDbwFY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oh-4MSDbwFY&t=35s[/video]
 

sso

Well-Known Member
I get BETTER growth than anyone I've seen W/Wh I AM NOT growing with Standard T5... or Horticulture T5 49W are not HO mine are 54W per 4'Bulb..
I am using Specialized Bulbs developed for Coral Growth that have 25 years of full time research and use using this tech. Bulb manufacturers are JUST NOW starting to implement my method into HID! im doing SOMETHING RIGHT! if HID manufacturers are copying ME!
I urge you to take a minute read my research and decide for yourselves before repeating the propaganda you've read or heard from someone else.
I am here to change those stereotypes and misconceptions of T5 and what is POSSIBLE!
I can compare my t5 to any setup you can muster. 1000w no problem bring it.. i will grow BETTER product w/wh.
not knocking your bulbs, 49w are are ho btw, 4300 lumens (about 700 less than the 54w version)

that being said, ive only tried 3000k bulbs :) and ill say this for them, they do grow danker bud than hps, bit more potent, but lot more aroma.
btw, i was very interested in the coral bulbs thread.
still doubt you´d match 1000w hps in yield unless you went quite abit over 1000w in t5´s, but id bet you´d get danker product.

hmm, though ive found that by adding some 6500k 23w cfls to my 600w hps i get danker buds (more smell) not sure yet though (first grow with that)
wondering if its the blue thats responsible for that.
 

sso

Well-Known Member
btw, so far ive found it to be the intensity of the light, more than the spectrum.

read about this study where they found that lps lamps outperformed hps if you added a 100w incandescent bulb to fill out the spectrum.
so, basically a orange light, very intense, along with a mininum (in comparison) of the other colors, outperformed the wider spectrum of the hps, simply because of the intensity of that orange light.
but i think its very cool you are doing that research. and id bet you´d outperform any normal t5 system with ease.

but i just have difficulty imagining a t5, even with "perfect par" and all the "right colors" matching even a 600w hps (actually even 400w or 250w..), unless you are using a ridiculous amount of t5´s over a much larger area (with more plants)
i saw your plants and while i found them to be impressive for a t5 grow, they did not impress me enough to change over.

in my experience, plants vegged under t5´s are rather lackluster in comparison to plants vegged under 600w hps (from the start (hps with extra blue))
though i think your method would be fantastic for anyone that doesnt need quite a bit of smoke and only has limited space.

never got anything but popcorn from my t5´s, well, popcorn in comparison to 1.5 foot all bud under the 600w hps..(rather larger than a coke can and thats not even a very yieldy strain, some "bigbud" strains would be 2l sodabottle thick) and since i smoke 1-3g a day, well i cant use anything but hps.

plus you gotta keep the t´5s so close. much more fiddly work and watching over the grow.

buy one bulb every year, easily bought and not so pricey, aquarium bulbs? 1 of the 35w t5´s i got over my aquarium costs HALF of what my hps bulb costs ;)
and judging by how much either bulb has lost in light, id gotta say the hps is a clear winner.

lol, but there is no hostility in my statements, i LOVE the work you are doing. love your experimenting with this.
would love to see larger bulbs made with similar thinking to yours.
wouldnt give a rats ASS over being wrong on this, would actually love to see you prove me wrong :D

why? cause i love growing and id love to get a better method (who the fuck doesnt? :) (prideful fools? who talks to those?)

have fun man, i will be checking out your thread.
 
Lumens by definition is visible light. Plants only absorb 5% to 10% of visible light. Therefore 90% of the light coming off the hps is wasted. Hid's are 10% PAR (Photosynthetically Available Radiation) . Our bulbs are around 90% PAR , The sun is 100% PAR. That is scientific fact. Nothing you can say will change how physics and biology work.
I've seen this said before and I don't beleive it is true. Please correct me if I'm wrong. A Hortilux 600W HPS is rated for 370 PAR Watts. That looks like 60% PAR, or am I missing something? Please school me. :)
 
Also.... Maybe I don't understand the meaning of PAR the way you are using it, but I don't think you can say the Sun is 100% PAR. It DOES radiate 100% of the spectrum absorbed by plants, but it radiates a lot that is not used by plants. For the Sun only 45 percent of the light is photosynthetically active.
 

hyroot

Well-Known Member
This is from Planted Tank > a site about Coral reefs. It pretty much explains PAR and PUR

Photosynthetically available radiation (PAR) is defined as the amount of radiant energy available within the approximate spectral range of 350 to 750 nm (Tyler 1966). Instruments commonly used in studies of photosynthesis are PAR meters; that is, they report 400J700 I,h) or total PAR. Photosynthetically usable radiation (PUR) is defined as
the fraction of photosynthetically available radiant
energy of such wavelengths that it can be absorbed by
the algal and plant pigments. Light is selectively absorbed
by most algae in the blue and red regions of the
spectrum, causing the transmitted light to be concentrated
in regions of the spectrum where algal pigment
systems are ineffective at trapping light for photosynthesis
(Sullivan et al. 1984). PUR is necessarily less than
PAR, and PUR will depend on both the pigment complement
of the microalgae and the spectral composition
of the available submersed radiant energy.

It has been suggested that we can calculate PUR through a light calculator and thus have a more precise method of measuring light than PAR. However, I have argued that without knowing the pigment complement of the plants in question, none of which are known............nor have been quantified near as I can tell, maybe I have not searched enough yet, you cannot say much about it. Research also supports this view.

PAR will always be equal to or higher than PUR.
I do not dispute that. PAR meters are also easy to measure with, the methods for measuring specific PUR wavelengths and intensities is not.
Modeling calulators can and do have issues, and need results to verify.

I'm asking and debating whether it can be measured and verified in the aquarium to the same argument made by PUR calculator proponents. There is not enough evidence to say that there is at this point.

You can speculate without support, but you cannot say much else.
What I am asking and looking for is some meat on the bone here, some real support that it makes a difference that aquarists can see, measure, quanatify, heck, anything other than "belief" and yes, I "feel good".

Here's an algal back ground paper that discusses what is involved and the methods to measure PUR in situ, a much higher bar than using a PAR meter. Given that most bulbs used already have a good amount of Red and blue anyway, this starts to get pretty insignificant and difficult to test and support any differences using PUR vs PAR for aquarium plants.


http://www.new.aslo.org/lo/toc/vol_31/issue_3/0557.pdf

Are comparison of modesl is detailed here:
http://222.aslo.org/lo/toc/vol_44/issue_7/1599.pdf

While there was a difference between PAR and PUR models in biomass, look at the variation, it's quite a bit. Adding 300 species of plants and that would go even higher. There was good correlation with the PAR model and production, see the last Figure 9, also, look at table 1.

Add less light difference and general good PAR/PUR ratio to begin with with FL lights, we have less differences. I've supported my view, time to support yours. Show me something that suggest what is claimed with PUR really helping anyone with any aquatic plant using typical lighting used in the hobby vs PAR. You may use google, any resources available that you might have to show this.

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the Einstein is a good indicator of the photosynthetic activity of plants. The biological mechanisms in place during the luminous phase of photosynthesis do not depend on the photons' energy, but on their number. This is exactly what the Einstein displays. The PAR (Photosynthetic Available Radiation, unit µE/m2/s) measures the number of photons reaching a surface, all this in the wavelengths of the visible light (between 400 and 700nm). It is indeed in this portion of the spectrum that we can find the different absorption peaks of the photosynthetic pigments. As these pigments do not absorb energy in a equal manner on all that 400-700nm range, but only at certain precise wavelengths, some prefer using the PUR (Photosynthetic Usable Radiation) in order to quantify the number of photons truly used by the photosynthetic cells. The PUR is thus defined by the light source (emitted spectrum, intensity) and by the studied pigments (because of their absorption spectrum).

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The Importance of the PAR/PUR of Your Reef Lights Phototropic Response of Photosynthetic zooxanthellae in corals

Can't figure out why your clams, anemones and corals aren't really growing? You have a ton of lights hanging over your tank with plenty of watts per gallon, but everything just sort of sits there in your tank. Spend a few minutes to learn about the PAR/PUR of your reef tank lighting and you will quickly see what your problem may be. It's not so much how much light you have as what kind of light you have. PAR, or Photosynthetically Active Radiation designates the spectral range (wave band) of solar radiation from 400 to 700 nanometers that photosynthetic organisms are able to use in the process of photosynthesis. This spectral region corresponds more or less with the range of light visible to the human eye.
PUR, or Photosynthetically Usable Radiation is that fraction of PAR that is absorbed by zooxanthellae photopigments thereby stimulating photosynthesis.
Photosynthetic zooxanthellae in corals and some other marine invertebrates utilize light in the 400 to 700nm range in different ways. The following from the Aquarium Lighting article on the American Aquarium; Aquatic Information, Products site relates to the graphic above:
"Important Definitions as it applies PAR in plants and zooanthellic algae: See the graph above as it corresponds to each of these definitions.
*A: Phototropic response; having a tendency to move in response to light. Basically this is the Chlorophyll containing plant or algae "moving" to respond to a positive light source to begin the process of photosynthesis (initial growth of plants, zooxanthellae, etc.).
*B: Photosynthetic response; the process which begins when energy from light is absorbed by proteins called photosynthetic reaction centers that contain chlorophylls.
*C: Chlorophyll synthesis is the chemical reactions and pathways by the plant hormone cytokinin soon after exposure to the correct Nanometers wave length (about 670 NM) of light resulting in the formation of chlorophyll, resulting in continued growth of a plant, algae, zooxanthellae and the ability to "feed" and propagate, and without this aspect PAR (670 NM light energy), zooxanthellae and plants cannot properly "feed" propagate. The results of the lack of this high PAR "spike" would be stunted freshwater plant growth, and eventually poor coral health in reef tanks."
As you can see, a light source which provides light in all three of these zones (A, B and C) is important for coral growth and health.

Fluorescent Light Bulb Spectrums


Different fluorescent (and Compact Fluorescent, MH, LED) bulbs provide more or less light in different areas of the spectral range. Examining the spectral ranges of bulbs before you buy will help you get the effect that works best for your situation. For example, if you like the Coralife 20,000K for its mid and upper (B & C)spectral range, but it doesn't have enough light in the actinic range (A), you could add the UV Actinic to get the effect that you need. Mix and match until you get exactly what you want.


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http://www.defblog.se/LightCalculator/
 

pr0fesseur

Well-Known Member
I've seen this said before and I don't beleive it is true. Please correct me if I'm wrong. A Hortilux 600W HPS is rated for 370 PAR Watts. That looks like 60% PAR, or am I missing something? Please school me. :)
There are 3 seperate measurements of PAR,
PAR watts
PPF PAR
YPF PAR

PAR watts strictly refers to the accuracy of that bulb to fit into a standard par curve and in no way measures the light "used" or "Usable" by the plant.
THats when you have to factor PUR "sun is 100%PUR" values into the equations.. When using PAR i am referring to the measure of YPF formulae. You are using the moles per sq\m method, or "einstein" method. my method heavily weighs the measurements based on the red curve as plants use red light more efficiently than others weighed in PPF method.
you must also take into account that your light source being a minimun of 1' away from the plant reduces the PAR instantly to 1/2. now your @ 30% with a great bulb.. MOST HID bubs are mediocre @ best... and are more of a standard non enhanced variety.
The book
Chlorophyll a Fluorescence in Aquatic Sciences: Methods and Applications

Explains how Phytoplankton And other specialized plants use light outside of the standard PAR mole calculations and must therefore be taken into consideration.
Also most spectrometers measure transmittance not absorption they also do not use spherical sensors.
 

hyroot

Well-Known Member
The following is a breakdown of the energetics of the photosynthesis process from Photosynthesis by Hall and Rao:[5]
Starting with the solar spectrum falling on a leaf
47% lost due to photons outside the 400-700 nm active range (chlorophyll utilizes photons between 400 and 700 nm extracting the energy of one 700 nm photon from each one)
30% of the in-band photons are lost due to incomplete absorption or photons hitting components other than chloroplasts
24% of the absorbed photon energy is lost due to degrading short wavelength photons to the 700 nm energy level
68% of the utilized energy is lost in conversion into d-glucose
35—45% of the glucose is consumed by the leaf in the processes of dark and photo respiration
Stated another way:
100% sunlight—non-bio-available-photons-waste-47% leaving-->
53% (in 400—700 nm range) --30%-of-photons-lost due to incomplete absorption leaving-->
37% (absorbed photon energy) --24%-lost-due-to-wavelength-missmatch-degradation-to-700 nm-energy-level leaving-->
28.2% (sunlight energy collected by chlorophyl) --32%-efficient-conversion-of-ATP-and-NADPH-to-d-glucose leaving-->
9% (collected as sugar) --35-40%-of-sugar-is-recycled/consumed-by-the-leaf-in-dark-and-photo-respiration leaving-->
5.4% net leaf efficiency
net efficiency of a leaf at 25°C is about 5%
many plants lose most of the rest of this doing things like growing roots
most crop plants store ~0.25% to 0.5% of the sunlight in the product (corn kernels, potato starch, etc.)
sugar cane is exceptional in several ways to yield peak storage efficiencies of ~8%.
Photosynthesis by D.O.Hall & K.K.Rao says that photosynthesis increases linearly up to about 10,000 lux or ~100 watts/square meter before beginning to exhibit saturation effects. Thus, most plants can only utilize ~10% of full mid-day sunlight intensity. This dramatically reduces average achieved photosynthetic efficiency in fields compared to peak laboratory results. Real plants (as opposed to laboratory test samples) have lots of redundant, randomly oriented leaves. This helps to keep the average illumination of each leaf well below the mid-day peak enabling the plant to achieve a result closer to the expected laboratory test results using limited illumination.[5]
Only if the light intensity is above a plant specific value, called the Compensation point the plant assimilates more carbon and releases more oxygen by photosynthesis than it consumes by Cellular respiration for its own current energy demand.
 
Ok, I still don't see any back up of the statement that HIDs are 10% PAR regardless of which calculation you use. And you've chosen a calculation of PAR that supports your theory that T5's are the best invention since sliced bread. I'm not sure the comparison is fair.

I'm still struggling with the Sun is 100% PAR statement. Maybe this goes back to the calculation used, but it seems to me that the only 100% PAR light source is one that only produces light in the 400-700nm range. If it produces anything outside of that range then it is less than 100% PAR, correct? Certainly the Sun can't be 100% PUR. PUR is always less than PAR and is dependant on the plant or animal using the light for photosynthesis. A source with a given PAR value can have a differnt PUR value for different plants.

As far as distance goes I don't have my HPS lamp 1 foot from the plants, it is between 5 and 6 inches. That's with a 400W uncooled lamp, Eye Hortilux if that matters. I personally use fluoro's during veg, but once flowering time comes they just can't get good penetration like the HPS can. Sure I can get a couple inches closer, but not that much closer. Also the fluoro's are spread over a much larger area. I think the idea of being able to choose from different wavelengths is great, but HID lamps are simple and proven to be very effective. Is it your assertion that 400 watts of T5 lights will out yield 400 watts of HID light with all other things being equal?


Good discussion BTW :)
 

pr0fesseur

Well-Known Member
Ok, I still don't see any back up of the statement that HIDs are 10% PAR regardless of which calculation you use. And you've chosen a calculation of PAR that supports your theory that T5's are the best invention since sliced bread. I'm not sure the comparison is fair.

I'm still struggling with the Sun is 100% PAR statement. Maybe this goes back to the calculation used, but it seems to me that the only 100% PAR light source is one that only produces light in the 400-700nm range. If it produces anything outside of that range then it is less than 100% PAR, correct? Certainly the Sun can't be 100% PUR. PUR is always less than PAR and is dependant on the plant or animal using the light for photosynthesis. A source with a given PAR value can have a differnt PUR value for different plants.

As far as distance goes I don't have my HPS lamp 1 foot from the plants, it is between 5 and 6 inches. That's with a 400W uncooled lamp, Eye Hortilux if that matters. I personally use fluoro's during veg, but once flowering time comes they just can't get good penetration like the HPS can. Sure I can get a couple inches closer, but not that much closer. Also the fluoro's are spread over a much larger area. I think the idea of being able to choose from different wavelengths is great, but HID lamps are simple and proven to be very effective. Is it your assertion that 400 watts of T5 lights will out yield 400 watts of HID light with all other things being equal?


Good discussion BTW :)
Again no assumptions are being made..
1.) Full sunlight on a cloudless, clear day at high noon in the midwestern US is about 2000 umol/m2/s PAR. We need to use a basis of comparison and level equaling 0-100% Using the standard PAR caclulations you would only use 400-700nm, but we cant use that measurement as its been shown that the standard
par measurements must be adjusted outside this range. PAR meters cannot adjust for this range because its not "visible light"
PAR values for cannabis has been shown to exist outside of this 4-7 range and includes far-near infrared and ultraviolet ranges... NONE OF WHICH IS PROVIDED BY MH!
2.) The mere fact that you simply refer to T5 as an all encompassing term is wrong. I am not and never have used standard T5.
3.) The T5 that i have been using include a focused internal reflector and return more light to a given area. and are NOT designed for human eye lighting as yours are.
4.) Sure 1 plant will receive more benefit from 1 hid light.. but what about 30 plants in a square formation from a bulb located directly in the center ..
5.) Inverse Square LAW prevents your single light from delivering more than 50% of its light to any given area greater than 1' away...your light may be 1" from the top of 1 plant... but the actual light source is a few inches more theres the glas protecting your bulb then the vacuum glass then the light source..... its a law of physics and cannot be discounted. but which must be deducted from a single point of light

6.) if my 451 nm bulb emits no other light its 100% PAR......
 

ohmy

Well-Known Member
question for the OP. how much did you get from your first harvest? sorry if you posted it and i missed it.Plants looked real good
 

pr0fesseur

Well-Known Member
This is how your bulbs get measured for par watts notice that plant sensitivity curve... thats not an accurate curve, hell thats not even a PAR curve, what im trying to get throug to everyone is that THEIR math and Method is WRONG for PLANTS..

This is what IM measuring Against...... kiss-ass BIG F**** Difference NO?

1 Bulb
 
So where did the plant sensativity curve come from? I have seen a few different curves, but the one you are using differs the most from what I normally see. What makes it more valid than the others?

Have you seen this Article from Harry Stijger? He seems repuatable enough. I've seen his work referenced in other articles. He seems to indicate that light color has very little to do with photosynthesis. And that a balanced light spectrum is really the way to go. Thoughts?

I realize you probably don't want to answer this, but I ask again. Do you T5 users (start to finish) assert that watt for watt a T5 grow will yield better than HID's? I love to learn the science behind everything, but in the end it all about the output, right?
 
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