The Communist Manifesto

(This is from another thread about why WalMart sucks, but I got diverted by another guy who made an anti-communist remark and just started writing about it.

I'm getting a little tired of the anti-communist mindset that has been bred into America since the Cold War and McCarthyism, so I thought I'd throw my two cents out there.

I would like to hear some EDUCATED opinions on this subject. I made it so big because I DO NOT want this to turn into a stupid flame fest.

Thanks. )




I don't mind capitalism, it's not the greatest system ever, but it works alright in theory. It just promotes greed.

And don't bash on communism unless you understand it, in theory communism is an amazing system it's just never used correctly. I'm really not sure if there has been even one successful application of communism as Karl Marx had intended it to work.

Corruption happens, as with any system of government. These anti-communist, post Cold War, McCarthyist views have really set into American life haven't they?

Communism is the little guys dream, the hard working average Joe (Proletariat) has all the power, instead of the people who employ the hard working average Joe (Bourgeois). Maybe take a minute (or many more) to read the Manifesto someday, you might find out that Karl Marx wasn't the devil after all.

Anyway sorry, I'm sick of people automatically being anti-communist because they're American. I'm American too BTW, born and raised on the same anti-communist views. I just decided to do a little reading for myself to found out if I was REALLY anti-communism or not.

I'm not. Just anti-corruption.

Human nature will never allow true communism to succeed, this is why we have middle ground called socialism. You probably want to list specifics as to why Communism is not bad instead of making me read the little red book myself.

As you know, I have only thumbed through the Manifesto so I'm afraid that an "educated" opinion is a bit of a stretch.

Unfortunately, you can't escape corruption. We're looking at it right now with our own "superior" form of government. If it CAN be fucked with it WILL be fucked with. It's human nature.

Like you said, Communism has never been applied as intended and perhaps that's why it fails. Maybe it's simply the wrong place and wrong time...

I find it laughable that people can be so easily manipulated by the media, government, etc. We believe the news, movies and *corrupt* leaders without question because we're too ignorant or scared to look for the truth. It's time to poke our little heads out and start thinking for ourselves. Even if you believe that you are opposed to something you ought to do a little research. Maybe your opinions won't change, but at least you're not stupid.

Fitch: You have a very valid point, human nature goes completely against the idea of Communism. But maybe that just means that we as humans aren't ready for the application of it yet? In order to have a theoretically utopian society, you've got to have a theoretically utopian populace.

We as humans are far from being considered a "utopian" group.

And socialism seems to be doing alright for itself. So maybe this bodes well for humanity being able to work together for the collective instead of the individual in the future.

[Edit: Anyone who cares enough about this thread to actually want to read the Manifesto, can just google it. As I am far too lazy to outline it for you. ]

Klooless: Thanks, that's pretty much what I'm trying to get across with this post. Not that communism is better than any other form of government, simply that using communism as a derogatory term is just stupid. Especially if you don't understand how it is SUPPOSED to work. You can't always believe what our government is feeding you through the television, you have to go out and figure things out for yourself.

If we were all listening to what America was shoving down our throats, none of us would be smoking any weed right now would we?

Summary of the Communist Manifesto

Did it for ya.

The thing that i don't like about communism is that it diverts the power from the people to the state.... I think democracy is the most revolutionary idea, more so that socialism or communism! capitalism has its flaws to so im not judging.

Forget money. Wealth is of the heart and mind not the pocket. That's all for now.

10 Conditions For Transition To Communism

1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes. - Whaaaat??? Sorry but I like to work my ass of so I can have MY roof over MY head. And I want it to be in the shape that I want with the color that I want
   
2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax. - Why should you pay more if you work more? This makes it so no one wants to do 12 years of schooling after high school to become doctors. I can understand the hate we feel towards rich people that did nothing to earn it, but there's a lot of people out there who sacrifice a lot of fun in their young lives so they can guarantee a better lifestyle when they are older.
   
3. Abolition of all right of inheritance. - Whaaaaat???? Fuck that! I want the best for my kids. I'm not having a corrupt government (and you KNOW whoever gets the power WILL be corrupt) take away what I've worked for my entire life.
4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels. - Great another "patriot act". You've got something we want, your a "rebel'... This is an invitation for CORRUPTION
5. Centralisation of credit in the hands of the State, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly. - This scares me... again, we have to assume that the leaders will get corrupt at some point... can't have the government get too powerful
   
6. Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State. - Big Brother watching your every move... "You can go where WE tell you and say what WE tell you" (Again, WE is not the average Joe... Its the shrewd politician who is in power at the moment)
7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
8. Equal liability of all to labour. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture. - Who's in charge of these armies? Does He/She get paid more? Does he or she have to do more work than the average laborer to keep things running well?
9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country, by a more equal distribution of the population over the country. - This sounds nice but only because it's my personal dream to live close enough to the city for its benefits, but far away to not be in the middle of the shithole
10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labour in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production. - Of course! But it's easier said than done... From experience, this makes it so the quality of the school goes to the shitter...
    

I'm not here to hate, but I feel like in a communism, A) practically, it urges people to do the least amount of work because the "others" who do more work will carry your load for you. B) Theoretically, even though its nice, it gives too much power to the government, and it WILL get corrupt.

What I like about capitalism is that even the poorest person can become a rich. Coming from a 3rd world country (where if you are born the daughter of a maid, you will die being the daughter of a maid) I am amazed as to how unmotivated so many people are in the US. People don't do shit and want the government to take care of them and pay their bills... Here's MY story (and somethign I think ANYBODY can do if the spend the right amount of time). I studied my ASS off in High School. Graduated with a 3.7 GPA (of 4) and got over a 1300 on the SAT. Bright Futures (in Florida) payed 100% of my College Tuition!!!!!!!!! SO all I had to do was work part time to pay for food and rent in college. I also studied hard in college and graduated Cum Laude. Now, I'm going to medical school to be one of those rich fat doctors we hate so much (except I'm not your traditional dickhead retarded booksmart-only doctor).
My point is, if people would only work hard in high school instead of fucking around getting drunk and high for the wrong reasons, we could become a smarter society.

On the other hand, if we lived in a communism, do you think I would study for 12 years after high school so I could earn the same as a cop who only has a highschool education, or a 4 year criminology degree? Hell no! I love medicine and the act of helping others, but in my opinion it would be stupid and a waste of my time and resources.

(And I don't mean to knock or hate on anyone! I'm just stating examples. Theres much more ambitious careers than medicine, and much less ambitious careers than law enforcement. so I don't mean to pick on anyone)

And for those who feel like they're being stepped on by the Man, it's just because you haven't figured out the game. Is it fair? NO! But it's life! At least in America you can do something about it! Learn the game! Get that piece of paper with "diploma" written on it. We all know it's a bullshit piece of dead tree, but it's a rite of passage to a better lifestyle.

Polar: Good post. +rep

I think you're right, capitalism invites a natural progression in society for people to work harder and earn more. Whereas communism has no benefit to working any harder than anyone else.

So that puts communism into two possible categories:

A) Tyrannical rule involving partial slavery.

B) A Utopian society where people do things just to help their country, and no motivation aside from helping their country is required.

Handing over control of all of our assets and allowing the government to spy on us is definitely just an invitation for a corrupt government, I totally agree. But again I'm thinking Karl Marx was describing his utopian society, where all government officials and citizens were just and fair. This is as we all know, is not the case.

I'm just saying that communism may have been misunderstood, or really that Karl Marx was. He was trying to convey his version of a utopian society, and create a form of government for it. It has been put into practice in the modern age under misguided and corrupt pretenses.

Also take into account that it was written in the 1800's and that there is not any real practical way to apply ALL of the manifesto by todays standards, and come out with everyone being happy. Not possible.

Socialism is a step in the right direction though.

Mysticclown: Agreed. +rep

as you say, communism has never worked sucsessfully, Marx may have been brilliant, i can't say either way, but if every time communism has been setup, it's failed, and on the whole pretty badly, would that be fair to say, then maybe communism is flawed. you design a car, you road test it, it crashes every time, so you go back to the beginning and sort out what's causing the mishaps, doesn't seem like this happens with communism, as you say, it just tends to lead to amss corruption and abuse of power

Communism is just a word.
The real paradigm is Freedom Vs. Slavery.
Does communism make us free, or slaves?
Does capitalism make us free, or slaves?
See, it doesn't matter whether you use the word "capitalism" or "communism".
As for me, I am a Bill of Rights guy.
I have the right to practice whatever religion I want. I have the right to protest. I have the right to shoot a motherfucker who wants to wrong me. I have the right to defend my community against enemies, foreign and domestic. I have the right to be secure in my house. No warrantless searches and seizures. I have the right to a speedy trial. I have the right to NOT be punished cruelly and unusually.
You see, the Bill of Rights has nothing to do with 'communism' or 'capitalism'. It has to do with 'freedom' and 'slavery'.

Communism, and capitalism, are not forms of government.
They are economic policies.

Any economic policy that proposes the abolition of private property is a dumb economic policy.

BlueBalls said:

Communism, and capitalism, are not forms of government.
They are economic policies.

Any economic policy that proposes the abolition of private property is a dumb economic policy.

Click to expand...

V for Vendetta is a great example of this argument and quite possibly a glimpse into the future. "people should not fear their governments, the government should be afraid of it's people."

Mysticlown150 said:

Forget money. Wealth is of the heart and mind not the pocket. That's all for now.

Click to expand...

Were you thinking that when you and your boy decided to rob your dealer? You are morally broke, bro.

BlueBalls said:

Communism, and capitalism, are not forms of government.
They are economic policies.

Any economic policy that proposes the abolition of private property is a dumb economic policy.

Click to expand...

Sounds like slavery to me.

Yes this is true, a lot of points ESPECIALLY the 10 conditions for a transition to communism aren't very well thought out. And definitely sound like slavery to you and I, haha.

But it is stated in many articles that Marx seriously wanted to revise these conditions and modernize them. Probably because people in the 1800's thought it sounded like slavery, haha.

[Edit: I'm not trying to convert anyone or debate the practicality of Communism. I'm definitely not in favor of Communism as it is practiced today.

The point of this thread was just to throw it out there that Karl Marx isn't the devil, just some guy with an idea that got put into practice under shitty pretenses.]

BlueBalls said:

Communism, and capitalism, are not forms of government.
They are economic policies.

Any economic policy that proposes the abolition of private property is a dumb economic policy.

Click to expand...

Communism doesn't necessarily call for the abolition of private property. And socialism certainly doesn't.

Socialism seems to work pretty damn well for the countries who currently utilize it. The Scandinavian countries are pretty socialized and they have some of the highest standards of living.

That's what I mean when I say Socialism seems like a step in the right direction, socialist countries seem to be doing alright for themselves.

jrh72582 said:

Communism doesn't necessarily call for the abolition of private property. And socialism certainly doesn't.

Click to expand...

Strait from the mouth of Marx
"In this sense, the theory of the Communists may be summed up in the single sentence: Abolition of private property."

All socialist economic policies require the forfeiture of some form of private property. Most often the product of your labor, money.