The Congressional Progressive Caucus has a Plan too!

JoSixChip · Apr 24, 2011

mame said:
Okay... by your logic we should get rid of corporate taxes so they can pass the savings onto us! Do you trust them to do that? I don't... I doubt many do.

Besides, although your statement is true to an extent, once you consider the downward pricing pressure built into capitalism - you'd realize that's largely prevented. If your competitor is willing to suck up the cost of their income taxes and earn a lower profit to out price and outsell you, you'll need to do the same thing to survive. Most of the things we commonly buy are from very competitive markets(think foods like wheat, rice... commodities like gas) so most of the stuff we buy is largely shielded from this "pass it on" scenario because of how competitive these markets are. Kind of messes up your whole "corporations pay no taxes, only the consumer does" argument.... Which, by the way, is just as tired and discredited as most other conservative talking points.

No, what happens is the corporations do pass the cost on to the consumers. The consumers want to buy the least expensive products, which turns out to be a product from china. You see, when you raise taxes on American companies you actually end up subsidizing imports. It's a vicious cycle and a large part of why most manufacturing has moved out of America. America has one of the highest corporate tax rate in the world now, research it for your self.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rates_around_the_world

mame · Apr 24, 2011

JoSixChip said:
No, what happens is the corporations do pass the cost on to the consumers. The consumers want to buy the least expensive products, which turns out to be a product from china. You see, when you raise taxes on American companies you actually end up subsidizing imports. It's a vicious cycle and a large part of why most manufacturing has moved out of America. America has one of the highest corporate tax rate in the world now, research it for your self.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rates_around_the_world

Maybe you should do the research. While America does boast the highest corporate tax rate at 35%, the efffective corporate tax rate is much lower and is actually one of the lowest among developed nations at 13.4% (according to the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities). Another factoid for you,

Between 2000 and 2005, U.S. corporate taxes amounted to 2.2% of the GDP. The average for the 30 mostly rich member countries of the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development was 3.4%.(source)

Corporations are not paying their fair share. I don't understand how anyone can argue otherwise with a strait face.

NLXSK1 · Apr 24, 2011

mame said:
Okay... by your logic we should get rid of corporate taxes so they can pass the savings onto us! Do you trust them to do that? I don't... I doubt many do.

Besides, although your statement is true to an extent, once you consider the downward pricing pressure built into capitalism - you'd realize that's largely prevented. If your competitor is willing to suck up the cost of their income taxes and earn a lower profit to out price and outsell you, you'll need to do the same thing to survive. Most of the things we commonly buy are from very competitive markets(think foods like wheat, rice... commodities like gas) so most of the stuff we buy is largely shielded from this "pass it on" scenario because of how competitive these markets are. Kind of messes up your whole "corporations pay no taxes, only the consumer does" argument.... Which, by the way, is just as tired and discredited as most other conservative talking points.

No, it doesnt. If government raises the taxes across the board on corporations, they all face the same expense. Therefore, relative pricing rises across the board and possibly more on the side with the lower profit margin as they have less profit to work with to start.

You reinforced my argument by explaining how market forces in a capitalistic society work to keep prices lower through competition. Government artificially raises prices by things like taxation and regulation.

I dont TRUST corporations to do anything not in their best interests. I do however TRUST competition to keep the market generally fair with reasonable profit margins.

You are clinging to class warfare and believing that some sector of society is greedy and not paying ENOUGH. Why dont you question how much we are spending? Why dont you go look at a graph of government spending and see how fast it has outpaced the economy and inflation? Because the problem is not the revenue, we have much more revenue flowing into the government than 10 years ago. Much more than the average income has increased.

We need the government to cut spending.

NLXSK1 · Apr 24, 2011

mame said:
Maybe you should do the research. While America does boast the highest corporate tax rate at 35%, the efffective corporate tax rate is much lower and is actually one of the lowest among developed nations at 13.4% (according to the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities). Another factoid for you, Corporations are not paying their fair share. I don't understand how anyone can argue otherwise with a strait face.

Corporations dont pay taxes, you do... I thought we went over this.

Corso312 · Apr 24, 2011

66 % of corporations pay zero taxes, the tax rate could be 50% , it would mean nothing with all the loopholes and tax credits 2/3 of the corporations workt he tax code to end up not paying anything

redivider · Apr 24, 2011

corporations don't pay taxes b/c of government subsidies and creative loopholes lobbied into our laws.

they are required by law to file income earned.

and unlike the DUMBASS NSXLwhatever says, INCOME TAXES ARE ASSESSED AT EBIT (EARNINGS BEFORE INTEREST AND TAXES), NOT AT NET INCOME. this idea that corporations just pass along their income tax burden to the consumer is untrue. some corporations have been able to transfer their burden onto tax payers through lobbying and creative accounting. but the era of deregulation and corporate nanny-ing is over. we are living in a very eye-opening era of our history. corporations are recording HUGE profits and not reinvesting it in our economy. they are sitting on trillions of dollars, and demanding we give them more. this is going to stop.

corporations pass certain costs onto the consumer, but this idea that corporations just don't pay taxes is not true. larger corporations have been able to use tax loopholes to shy away from paying US federal income taxes.

JoSixChip · Apr 24, 2011

Corso312 said:
66 % of corporations pay zero taxes, the tax rate could be 50% , it would mean nothing with all the loopholes and tax credits 2/3 of the corporations workt he tax code to end up not paying anything

Well, you may have a point. Some corporations make targeted donations to certain politicians and do get special treatment. For example, look at GE and GM.

Mr Neutron · Apr 24, 2011

Go ahead, raise the tax rate and see how many move out of the country or just close their doors, leaving many without jobs. Great idea, while we're at it, let's confiscate all the wealth of the the top 49% and give it all away to the bottom 51%. Majority trumps all, right? Then we can tax those that were in the bottom 51% at 99% tax rate, that will put us on the road to prosperity. Then we should make everybody who owns a business, hand over all their profits to their employees. Then how about getting everybody who is healthy and expose them to some virus that will make them sick, after all, we can't have these healthy people walking around when there are so many sick people. Then we should get all the pretty people, you know the ones who are really good looking, those ones that flaunt their beauty at us and make us feel inferior and throw acid in their faces or perform surgery on them so they aren't so pretty anymore. Can't have some looking better than others. Then we can take control of the schools and when a particularly bright student appears, we can dumb them down so they don't make the other children feel bad... oh, wait, we already do that.
Namby pamby crybabies. Waaaaaah, life isn't fair, you've got more than me, waaaaaah!
IT'S NOT A REVENUE PROBLEM, IT'S A SPENDING PROBLEM
Sheesh, according to some of the thinking here, we only exist to fund the welfare state and only THEY know who should get what and how much. This is what happens when the government takes over education... brainwashing. Elitists, all of you!

NoDrama · Apr 24, 2011

redivider said:
this idea that corporations just pass along their income tax burden to the consumer is untrue.

Does the government decide on the prices that companies will charge? If government does not do that, then all a company will need to do to pass along a tax to the customer is to just pay the tax and then charge more for the product. Even a simpleton such as yourself must see how this works.

You sell widgets for 1 dollar a piece. You make a 8% profit margin, IE it costs you $.92 to produce the widget after all taxes and fees have been paid. Government comes in and starts charging another 10% tax on all widgets, you now lose 2 cents on each widget you sell. OMG how stupid do you suppose a CEO of a company would have to be to determine that he will continue producing widgets at a loss until they are bankrupt? Any moron could tell you that you will have to charge more for the widget. LOL and you call NSLX the DUMBASS. hahahahahahahahaahahah! Get a clue buddy, I assume you live hand to mouth and paycheck to paycheck? Am I right?

undertheice · Apr 24, 2011

Mr Neutron said:
according to some of the thinking here, we only exist to fund the welfare state and only THEY know who should get what and how much.

the proper way of looking at it, so i've been told, is that the state exists to serve the people and the people exist to serve the state. sounds fair, doesn't it? it would seem to be the perfect symbiotic relationship and would be, if someone wasn't laying down on the job.

mame · Apr 24, 2011

NoDrama said:
Does the government decide on the prices that companies will charge? If government does not do that, then all a company will need to do to pass along a tax to the customer is to just pay the tax and then charge more for the product. Even a simpleton such as yourself must see how this works.

You sell widgets for 1 dollar a piece. You make a 8% profit margin, IE it costs you $.92 to produce the widget after all taxes and fees have been paid. Government comes in and starts charging another 10% tax on all widgets, you now lose 2 cents on each widget you sell. OMG how stupid do you suppose a CEO of a company would have to be to determine that he will continue producing widgets at a loss until they are bankrupt? Any moron could tell you that you will have to charge more for the widget. LOL and you call NSLX the DUMBASS. hahahahahahahahaahahah! Get a clue buddy, I assume you live hand to mouth and paycheck to paycheck? Am I right?

The Ceo is still making 6 cents a widget (this is a profit, not a loss bud). If he raises his prices and his competitor does not - than he is likely to lose business. If all businesses conspire to have the same prices, well that's illegal... We have antitrust laws to promote competition after all. Most industries have enough competition between them to limit the scenario you're talking about. Target cant raise prices in response to a new tax if Wal-Mart doesn't also. Even if Wal-Mart did, what about the dozen or more companies who may see an opportunity to gain a price advantage? The assertion that companies pass all taxes on to the consumer is just flat out wrong. So yes, it makes sense to call NSLX a dumbass. His assertion is untrue in almost every circumstance... When the assertion is true, I'd argue that it's due to lack of competition - which is exactly why monopolies are bad. Thankfully, most of the things we buy come from very competitive markets.

The bigger point, as I've argued throughout these boards using hard historical and internationally compared evidence is that the wealthy dont pay their fair share.

1) Corporate taxes, as a share of GDP are at historically low rates as compared to the rest of U.S. history

2) Revenue as a share of GDP are at low rates compared to almost all other advanced nations

Our country is facing a debt problem. To stare the evidence in the face and STILL protest tax increases is idiocy. There is no excuse... If you're serious about the American debt problem you must realize that revenue must increase. Otherwise, you're a blind partisan holding onto discredited and purposefully misleading talking points. We've tried "trickle down" economics for a few decades now. It didn't work. Quite the contrary, it created an age of inequality only seen during the Gilded age prior to the Great Depression. America's debt problem is at least in large part a revenue problem. Prove me otherwise or shut the fuck up, all of you.

NLXSK1 · Apr 24, 2011

America's debt problem is at least in large part a revenue problem. Prove me otherwise or shut the fuck up, all of you.

If you make 30,000 dollars a year but spend 60,000 dollars a year do you call it a revenue problem?

NoDrama · Apr 24, 2011

mame said:
The Ceo is still making 6 cents a widget (this is a profit, not a loss bud). If he raises his prices and his competitor does not - than he is likely to lose business.

Where did you learn math?
10% of $1=$.10.
$.92 + $.10= $1.02 NOT $.94 like you thought. $1.00 - $1.02 = $-.02

If you are serious about debt fueled spending, then you must stop the spending. Just raising taxes will only exasperate the problem. We have more revenue coming into government than at any time before. Stop spending.

Proved otherwise!!

Mr Neutron · Apr 24, 2011

mame said:
Otherwise, you're a blind partisan holding onto discredited and purposefully misleading talking points.Prove me otherwise or shut the fuck up, all of you.

Whoa there, Bubba, don't get your panties in a wad just because you're defending a nonsensical viewpoint. Frustrating, isn't it? I used to believe in that same crap but I found my way out and so can you, just don't give up.

UncleBuck · Apr 24, 2011

Mr Neutron said:
Whoa there, Bubba, don't get your panties in a wad just because you're defending a nonsensical viewpoint. Frustrating, isn't it? I used to believe in that same crap but I found my way out and so can you, just don't give up.

you should say that into a mirror.

the person you are talking to is providing solid evidence and statistics. you are the one making hyperbole about throwing acid into faces to try and make a caricature that is not there.

face it, supply side economics doesn't work. trickle down is busted. tax cuts for the rich have created zero jobs and zero wage growth for americans. these are the facts.

UncleBuck · Apr 24, 2011

Mr Neutron said:
Go ahead, raise the tax rate and see how many move out of the country or just close their doors, leaving many without jobs. Great idea, while we're at it, let's confiscate all the wealth of the the top 49% and give it all away to the bottom 51%. Majority trumps all, right? Then we can tax those that were in the bottom 51% at 99% tax rate, that will put us on the road to prosperity. Then we should make everybody who owns a business, hand over all their profits to their employees. Then how about getting everybody who is healthy and expose them to some virus that will make them sick, after all, we can't have these healthy people walking around when there are so many sick people. Then we should get all the pretty people, you know the ones who are really good looking, those ones that flaunt their beauty at us and make us feel inferior and throw acid in their faces or perform surgery on them so they aren't so pretty anymore. Can't have some looking better than others. Then we can take control of the schools and when a particularly bright student appears, we can dumb them down so they don't make the other children feel bad... oh, wait, we already do that.
Namby pamby crybabies. Waaaaaah, life isn't fair, you've got more than me, waaaaaah!
IT'S NOT A REVENUE PROBLEM, IT'S A SPENDING PROBLEM
Sheesh, according to some of the thinking here, we only exist to fund the welfare state and only THEY know who should get what and how much. This is what happens when the government takes over education... brainwashing. Elitists, all of you!

Whoa there, Bubba, don't get your panties in a wad just because you're defending a nonsensical viewpoint. Frustrating, isn't it? I used to believe in that same crap but I found my way out and so can you, just don't give up.

Mr Neutron · Apr 24, 2011

UncleBuck said:
you should say that into a mirror.

LOL, I know you are but what am I?
Solid evidence and statistics? Statistics are like a bikini, they show a lot but they don't show everything. Nobody in the history of the world has ever taxed their way out of debt or into prosperity and to suggest such a thing is insane.
My attempt at revealing this ridiculous class envy, that some here are afflicted with, was in vain, I know, but I had to try to expose the absurd by being absurd.

Mr Neutron · Apr 24, 2011

UncleBuck said:
Whoa there, Bubba, don't get your panties in a wad just because you're defending a nonsensical viewpoint. Frustrating, isn't it? I used to believe in that same crap but I found my way out and so can you, just don't give up.

I wish I'd said that

UncleBuck · Apr 24, 2011

Mr Neutron said:
LOL, I know you are but what am I?
Solid evidence and statistics? Statistics are like a bikini, they show a lot but they don't show everything. Nobody in the history of the world has ever taxed their way out of debt or into prosperity and to suggest such a thing is insane.
My attempt at revealing this ridiculous class envy, that some here are afflicted with, was in vain, I know, but I had to try to expose the absurd by being absurd.

what class envy? it sounds like you are making that up and trying to stick it on whoever you disagree with.

is it so absurd to be against oligarchy? because that is what reaganomics has lead us towards.

why don't you show me some evidence that reaganomics/supply-side/trickle down has had any positive effects for hard working americans like myself. i haven't seen shit from you so far.

edit: i haven't seen shit from you other than absurd caricatures/hyperbole, name calling, and you getting your panties in a wad. although that may be your best hope at dislodging the sand in your vagina.

mame · Apr 24, 2011

NoDrama said:
Where did you learn math?
10% of $1=$.10.
$.92 + $.10= $1.02 NOT $.94 like you thought. $1.00 - $1.02 = $-.02

I read your post wrong. Obviously you can tell.

If you are serious about debt fueled spending, then you must stop the spending. Just raising taxes will only exasperate the problem. We have more revenue coming into government than at any time before. Stop spending.

Just like gold prices are higher than ever before unless you adjust for inflation, factors like increased population size, economic growth, etc. U.S. revenue as a percentage of GDP is actually lower right now that at any other time since the late 60's. This is, in fact, a revenue problem just as much as it is a spending problem:

Proved otherwise!!

Nope, thanks for trying though.

The Congressional Progressive Caucus has a Plan too!

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