The Junk Drawer

DIY-HP-LED

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
Which gets us to the question that I find interesting. What is the mind? What is consciousness? I don't think anybody can answer that right now, so I'm listening and watching that area of science/technology/knowledge develop. There are plenty of observations and convincing data to allow us to conclude that consciousness does not reside in any place in our bodies. There is no observable consciousness without a brain but there is no part of the brain where it resides.
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Awareness appears to be an emergent property of neural nets like pattern recognition and "data" is stored as engrams like in wet brains, relationships between connected neurons. I think we need to qualify the various kinds of awareness; each is tailored to its physical body and its function is to provide survival information to that body and allow it to react, some from the environment and some hardwired in instinctive behaviors. We need to start with simple awareness and work our way up to consciousness, at which point does consciousness emerge? Is a fly conscious? How about a mouse? We need to define consciousness as more than self-awareness.

We humans have complex brains made of many neural net sub systems and our particular form or awareness and self-awareness is optimized for survival in a different environment than we are currently in.
 
C

CCGNZ

Well-Known Member
A junk drawer random thought to ponder, THERE ARE 21 SECURITY CLEARANCE LEVELS ABOVE THAT OF A U.S. SITTING PRESIDENT. Who is MR. MAJESTIC or MR. COSMIC,or for that matter the other 19 un-elected individuals.The Pres. is 17 on a 1-28 list then over that are 10 individuals w/names like Orbit.Astral,Luna etc.. Not a big conspiracy man here,in a time when it seems a large % of people are Q zombies or whatever else.But when it comes to secret info and the like it's pretty eye popping to think there are 28 levels of secrecy above that of a sitting Pres.. Just a thought provoking,hard to fathom,mind blowing tidbit for the JUNK DRAWER.
 
printer

printer

Well-Known Member
CCGNZ said:
A junk drawer random thought to ponder, THERE ARE 21 SECURITY CLEARANCE LEVELS ABOVE THAT OF A U.S. SITTING PRESIDENT. Who is MR. MAJESTIC or MR. COSMIC,or for that matter the other 19 un-elected individuals.The Pres. is 17 on a 1-28 list then over that are 10 individuals w/names like Orbit.Astral,Luna etc.. Not a big conspiracy man here,in a time when it seems a large % of people are Q zombies or whatever else.But when it comes to secret info and the like it's pretty eye popping to think there are 28 levels of secrecy above that of a sitting Pres.. Just a thought provoking,hard to fathom,mind blowing tidbit for the JUNK DRAWER.
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Do you have a source that there is 21 levels above?

politifact.com/factchecks/2010/sep/24/allen-west/allen-west-says-he-has-clearance-even-president-un/

news.clearancejobs.com

Does the President Have a Security Clearance?

Murder, drugs, or a history of mishandling secret files are no obstacles to a president's access to classified material. Presidents have access to it all!
news.clearancejobs.com news.clearancejobs.com

"A security clearance is granted to an individual and generally recognizes a maximum level of clearance. Exceptions include levels above compartmentalized access or when an individual is cleared for a certain type of data. The President of the United States will be given access to any government or military information that they request, even if they would not otherwise be able to normally obtain a security clearance were they not the President."

Security clearance - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
 
C

CCGNZ

Well-Known Member
printer said:
Do you have a source that there is 21 levels above?

politifact.com/factchecks/2010/sep/24/allen-west/allen-west-says-he-has-clearance-even-president-un/

news.clearancejobs.com

Does the President Have a Security Clearance?

Murder, drugs, or a history of mishandling secret files are no obstacles to a president's access to classified material. Presidents have access to it all!
news.clearancejobs.com news.clearancejobs.com

"A security clearance is granted to an individual and generally recognizes a maximum level of clearance. Exceptions include levels above compartmentalized access or when an individual is cleared for a certain type of data. The President of the United States will be given access to any government or military information that they request, even if they would not otherwise be able to normally obtain a security clearance were they not the President."

Security clearance - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
[/QUOTE I just googled "security levels in the US", Wiki gave that description ,I'd seen similar info before and wanted to refresh,True or False ???,Presidents come and go in relatively short windows,so there must be keepers of top level info,UFO's ,Weapons Tech,and other extreme high end Nat. Security matters that go beyond the Presidency. Damn the 2016-2020 occupant surely couldn't be in the know for such matters (I HOPE).How these people(if this structure exists or another form)are appointed or vetted is cause for concern,the public sure as hell has no input(which if you look at an electorate that 47.5 % still support you know who might be a good thing). Otherwise no sources,just a reg.well grounded US citizen here, Just figured it was "food for thought".
Click to expand...
 
Sativied

Sativied

Well-Known Member
cannabineer said:
Only non-snappy answer I can imagine is:
outlast and outvote them. I think we are at that place where the price of freedom begins with steadfast vigilance and goes onto resolute but legitimate action. The end must not justify the means.
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Straight to the point. But outlast and outvote them, endure the suffering like a Buddhist? Why must the end not justify the means? After all the original version of that phrase is "the end justifies the means", specifically in the context of politics.

cannabineer said:
A thought:
what if the question of free will is not a y/n but more nuanced? I find the idea attractive. Not sure if inevitably.
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Absolute free will would be delusional, or divine. Which automatically makes it a some/none. Which is the same as do we have any free will, or none. Which is a y/n. Which is a good thing, else we might break the law of excluded middle or worse the law of non-contradiction and everything is true and unicorns exist. But both theologians and philosophers have tried to separate make it more nuanced, mainly to avoid the accountability problem.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
DIY-HP-LED said:
Awareness appears to be an emergent property of neural nets like pattern recognition and "data" is stored as engrams like in wet brains, relationships between connected neurons. I think we need to qualify the various kinds of awareness; each is tailored to its physical body and its function is to provide survival information to that body and allow it to react, some from the environment and some hardwired in instinctive behaviors. We need to start with simple awareness and work our way up to consciousness, at which point does consciousness emerge? Is a fly conscious? How about a mouse? We need to define consciousness as more than self-awareness.

We humans have complex brains made of many neural net sub systems and our particular form or awareness and self-awareness is optimized for survival in a different environment than we are currently in.
Click to expand...
Consciousness is nothing like a computer. Go back to the beginning and start over.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Sativied said:
Which is a good thing, else we might break the law of excluded middle or worse the law of non-contradiction and everything is true and unicorns exist. But both theologians and philosophers have tried to separate make it more nuanced, mainly to avoid the accountability problem.
Click to expand...
Why is that the only result? There is no good reason why free will cannot exist, including the one you give.

mindmatters.ai

Can Free Will Really Be a Scientific Idea?

It is possible to empirically distinguish an entity with free will from an entity that runs according to chance and necessity alone, while staying entirely within the methodology of modern science.
mindmatters.ai mindmatters.ai
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
CCGNZ said:
A junk drawer random thought to ponder, THERE ARE 21 SECURITY CLEARANCE LEVELS ABOVE THAT OF A U.S. SITTING PRESIDENT. Who is MR. MAJESTIC or MR. COSMIC,or for that matter the other 19 un-elected individuals.The Pres. is 17 on a 1-28 list then over that are 10 individuals w/names like Orbit.Astral,Luna etc.. Not a big conspiracy man here,in a time when it seems a large % of people are Q zombies or whatever else.But when it comes to secret info and the like it's pretty eye popping to think there are 28 levels of secrecy above that of a sitting Pres.. Just a thought provoking,hard to fathom,mind blowing tidbit for the JUNK DRAWER.
Click to expand...
would appreciate a link on that.
 
DIY-HP-LED

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
Consciousness is nothing like a computer. Go back to the beginning and start over.
Click to expand...
I never said it was and AI doesn't need to be conscious either. The point is when does mere awareness become consciousness, your dog is conscious, your laptop is not, even connected to an online AI. Neural net architecture is increasingly being utilized in AI along with rules-based algorithms.
 
printer

printer

Well-Known Member
DIY-HP-LED said:
I never said it was and AI doesn't need to be conscious either. The point is when does mere awareness become consciousness, your dog is conscious, your laptop is not, even connected to an online AI. Neural net architecture is increasingly being utilized in AI along with rules-based algorithms.
Click to expand...
With a video link would the AI be conscious? Able to determine its surroundings? Know its actions or others effects its surroundings which may impact itself? And on and on...
 
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DIY-HP-LED

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
printer said:
With a video link would the AI be conscious? Able to determine its surroundings? Know its actions or others effects its surroundings which may impact itself? And one and on...
Click to expand...
In the future they might rate these neural nets by the processing power of an insect, measured in cockroaches instead of horsepower! We are starting to see hybrid AI systems that contain traditional computing elements used with neural net processors and arrays or networks of them. You won't get to awareness or consciousness with rules base computing, but do you need to for AI to do useful or destructive shit? It is the rate of iterative progress in the field that is the most concern to many, including those in the field of AI.
 
cannabineer

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
printer said:
With a video link would the AI be conscious? Able to determine its surroundings? Know its actions or others effects its surroundings which may impact itself? And one and on...
Click to expand...
Some interesting science fiction has been written about self-awareness as an unplanned emergent property, usually in world-spanning networks. I think it might barely be plausible in a system orders of magnitude (and several decades or longer) ahead of where we are today.
 
DIY-HP-LED

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
printer said:
With a video link would the AI be conscious? Able to determine its surroundings? Know its actions or others effects its surroundings which may impact itself? And on and on...
Click to expand...
A Turing like test for AI might prove useful one day, one that involves controlling a humanoid robot in real time and 3 dimensions. All a humanoid robot needs to do is work at the job it is assigned and be easily retrained for another, the more powerful the AI, the more flexible and useful the robot(s). It might one day look like a human and take your fast-food order or wipe yer ass at the old folks home! :lol:
 
DIY-HP-LED

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
Here is a recap of humanoid robot development in 2023, someday all they will lack is a brain and AI connected by Wifi could provide a lot of that along with onboard autonomy. Progress is startling in AI and robotics, its global and happening at a much-accelerated rate.


All Most Advanced Next-Generation Humanoid Robots | BEST OF 2023

Humanoid robots represent a fascinating fusion of technology and human design, reproducing not only the external appearance, but also certain aspects of human behavior. Their diverse applications encompass fields such as medicine, industry, and research, opening new horizons in the field of robotics.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
DIY-HP-LED said:
I never said it was and AI doesn't need to be conscious either. The point is when does mere awareness become consciousness, your dog is conscious, your laptop is not, even connected to an online AI. Neural net architecture is increasingly being utilized in AI along with rules-based algorithms.
Click to expand...
Maybe I'm hung up on the words you used and therefore can't connect with the idea.

www.ibm.com

What is a Neural Network? | IBM

Neural networks allow programs to recognize patterns and solve common problems in artificial intelligence, machine learning and deep learning.
www.ibm.com www.ibm.com

Neural networks are nothing like people's minds. We don't yet understand what consciousness is. But we can say what it is not. Consciousness is something very different from what we now call AI and neural networks and such. The two are different. AI is nothing more than a statistical stochastic model based upon how people or other poorly understood systems behave.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
DIY-HP-LED said:
A Turing like test for AI might prove useful one day, one that involves controlling a humanoid robot in real time and 3 dimensions. All a humanoid robot needs to do is work at the job it is assigned and be easily retrained for another, the more powerful the AI, the more flexible and useful the robot(s). It might one day look like a human and take your fast-food order or wipe yer ass at the old folks home! :lol:
Click to expand...
then again, maybe not.
 
DIY-HP-LED

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
Maybe I'm hung up on the words you used and therefore can't connect with the idea.

www.ibm.com

What is a Neural Network? | IBM

Neural networks allow programs to recognize patterns and solve common problems in artificial intelligence, machine learning and deep learning.
www.ibm.com www.ibm.com

Neural networks are nothing like people's minds. We don't yet understand what consciousness is. But we can say what it is not. Consciousness is something very different from what we now call AI and neural networks and such. The two are different. AI is nothing more than a statistical stochastic model based upon how people or the other poorly understood systems behave.
Click to expand...
If awareness and consciousness are an emergent property of neural nets as animal life demonstrates, then it stands to reason that the answer lies in this particular informational architecture, whether implemented biologically or using silicon. You are correct about the current state of the art, but it seems to me if you are looking for consciousness or any kind of simple awareness, algorithms and sequential operations are the wrong place to look. They might be fine for AI but AI is not aware it is a glorified program.
 
Sativied

Sativied

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
I simply know believe/assume/'feel' that I've made choices during my life that made all the difference in where I am today. Nobody can tell me that I didn't.
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As the Stanford guy pointed out, it'll be the people who believe they made certain good choices that deserve(d) praise who will be the hardest to convince. From you experiencing 'making choices' doesn't follow knowledge about the existance of free will.

The default situation is that something is not until you have a good reason that something is, is it not? ( :) ) Then you form a hypothesis and test it, and then at best you end up with a theory and the word 'know' starts to apply (not like you can go back in time and try to choose a difference path, and even if you could there's no way to know that wasn't predetermined).

"I simply know" works no better here than in the sentence "I simply know god exist". How could you possibly know your belief, assumption, feeling is fact and not a mere illusion of your own fallible brain chemics. Where is the chain of reason, the logical justification, the evidence, or at least a marvelous story about how this knowledge was given to you.

As for the AI, you have a better understanding of LLMs and generative A"I" than most. But that wasn't the question, so let me rephrase. We established you believe in free will for the animal species humans to a point it's experienced as knowledge. Do you think future inevitably more advanced AIs can develope said free will out of nothing or can it be given?
 
Sativied

Sativied

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
Why is that the only result? There is no good reason why free will cannot exist, including the one you give.

mindmatters.ai

Can Free Will Really Be a Scientific Idea?

It is possible to empirically distinguish an entity with free will from an entity that runs according to chance and necessity alone, while staying entirely within the methodology of modern science.
mindmatters.ai mindmatters.ai
Click to expand...
"I simply know". Not a very satisfactionary or acceptable answer is it. Not sure what you're reading in my post, but what I said is that the free will debate is already more nuanced than absolute vs zero free will. And that it's a good thing it can be reduced to a y/n true/false option else we'd have to break some of the least contented rules of formal logic.

There's no good reason to assume your belief in free will implies I believe either way, nor in the post you quoted. I have no preference for the outcome, I'm neutral and I can produce reasonable valid arguments that go either way. A belief I have not, that's you. Such a level of conviction in indubitably truth most certainly not. Just fallible logically validity.
 
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