The organic philosophy: How far do you take it?

Hey everybody,

I dont post too much, but ive spent a lot of time here. I wanna start with a huge thanks to everyone. Ive been trying lots of new things and loving and learning more every day thanks to the great minds here.

Now, lets start the thread.

I'd like this thread to be a discussion of our organic philosophys and how "deep" we get (or think it is necessary to get) with it and why. By "deep" i mean what are your priorities and why. Do want your garden to be sustainable? do you shoot for maximum efficiency/lowest possible carbon footprint? Are you taking into account the impact on the environment of the products you buy?

Ive been going at it essentially TLO style for a few runs now just to get my organic feet under me. it works, but i feel like its still a very consumerist method and loses sight of what i really want to accomplish. if im still buying tons of bottled stuff from the grow store, it might be considered organic, but if im buying guano mined out of a cave in jamaica and shipped to the usa, am i really doing mother nature right any more than with synthetics? These types of questions are a big part of my philosophy. now that i have more of a handle on things, I am moving more towards a ROLS approach. Lately ive been finding myself sourcing more stuff from the health food store than the grow store. I like that. My next step is to focus on sourcing more of my stuff locally, and trying to get away from anything that is potentially harmful to me or the environment. First on that list is guano since it is bad for me to breathe in and its harvesting is bad for the earth. Ive started to make SST's and will be experimenting with FPE's soon with nettle, comfrey, and dandelion all right from the yard. I also will soon experiment with making my own fish hydrolysate, bokashi compost, vermicompost and other things, once spring finally springs way up north here.

With teas, i make sure, as much as i can, that my inputs are organic, like my molassas and other things. Some people might find this unnecessary, but thats part of my philosophy. If im making an organic tea, shouldnt my ingredients be organic. I know most people dont, but it just makes sense to me, and the extra expense for me has been negligable so far, considering the return.

i also make LAB using the rice wash/milk method. When making it, i make sure to use organic rice and organic milk (i happen to have a great hormone/antibiotic free local milk source) its not much more expensive to buy these ingredients organic, but i wonder if its necessary? Would the bad stuff from regular milk end up in my lab, or would they end up in the cheesy stuff you throw out after? Not sure.

Im hoping that we can all use this thread as a way to share our thoughts, ideas, and ideals about our organic journey and help inform each other of: what we are doung right, what we might be doing supurfluously, what we could do different, and what we should do different to help our girls and our planet. Thanks for reading. Peace.

Really good idea for a thread! FWIW, I agree with your philosophy. To that end, I do not use guanos, and am experimenting with phasing peat moss out of my grows. I am using a 50/50 coco coir/peat moss base right now, with the intention of replacing the peat moss with leaf mold in the fall. I have tons if leaves in piles out back that were collected last fall and are starting to break down nicely. I buy my meals from a local feed store (with the exception of neem seed meal and crab shell meal which I have not been unable to source locally). I also pick up (for free) rock dusts from a local quarry. The only bottles in my repertoire are pro-tekt and fish hydrosylate. I also use the 200x aloe powder that I ordered online but I have several aloe plants that I will start using once the powder runs out. I am also going to be planting some comfrey to use as a top dress. Ohh, and I have 3 indoor worm bins and 3 outdoor compost bins that are the cornerstone of my soil building that allow me to recycle every last bit of kitchen waste that my family produces.

Thanks stow. Yeah, ive seen some of your posts, your all about the worm bin haha. Good stuff. Do you use your lechate at all? And leaf mold is something ive been wanting to do for a top dress also. Just moved into my place last fall so this spring ill just be getting started with outdoor composting and all. Do you innoculate yours with a LAB or mycelium or anything? I know youve mentioned you never have used guano. Whats your secret to getting all that P during heavy flowering?

And whats the reason for phasing peat out? Some enviro impact i dont know about? Or are you just trying something different?

Countyboy88 said:

Thanks stow. Yeah, ive seen some of your posts, your all about the worm bin haha. Good stuff. Do you use your lechate at all? And leaf mold is something ive been wanting to do for a top dress also. Just moved into my place last fall so this spring ill just be getting started with outdoor composting and all. Do you innoculate yours with a LAB or mycelium or anything? I know youve mentioned you never have used guano. Whats your secret to getting all that P during heavy flowering?

Click to expand...

I don't use the lechate from my bins. I keep them on the dry side so I don't get much runoff at all. As far as the P goes, I suppose the honest answer would be I don't know. Basically I'm using kelp meal, alfalfa meal, crab shell meal, neem seed meal, an all purpose amendment from a local Michigan company called "Organically Done" (which contains fishbone meal), lots of rock dusts and lots of home made EWC. I top dress the Organically Done around week 3 of flower too. It is my understanding that the plant will secrete different exudates during certain phases of growth attracting the various microbes to the rhizosphere that bring with them the nutrients that the plant desires at that time .... so I can only assume based upon my results that the plant is getting everything that it needs.

My desire to phase out peat moss is because it is not a renewable resource, and the harvesting of peat moss disrupts delicate ecosystems that rely on these bogs. Peat bogs take thousands of years to form, and they are being harvested at an accelerated rate. After looking in to replacements, there seems to be 3 alternatives: Coco Coir, leaf mold, and a product called RePeet which is essentially composted/processed dairy cow manure (link below). I'm liking the addition of coco coir, and will be playing with the leaf mold this fall and would also like to try RePeet at some point.

http://www.organix.us/product/repeat/

Wow, i didnt know that about peat, thanks! Exactly the type of stuff i want to come from this thread. I had no idea it was such a delicate thing. I always heard there was just tons of it in Canada and it was no big deal. Im in a rural area and soon enough i should be able to just forage for pretty much anything ill need once i know what im doing haha!

Great thread Countyboy,
I'm also moving more and more towards sustainability alongside organics. in fact, local, natural, sustainable are actually as important to me as organic processes--though "natural" and "organic" most likely share a significant amount of overlap, the only difference really deriving from the fact of licensing boards existing to certify 'organics' as such.
I think trying to develop a fully functioning ecosystem in which I participate as a cognizant steward is my ultimate goal, and the telos of my organic philosophy. This is why i'm getting more and more interested in aquaponics as well.anywho, thats my .02
be easy friends,
Dr.J

Just had a nice blast of some fine Kush so excuse me if this sounds like the ramblings of a mad man...
I am of the mindset that organics, while being implemented, should have little environmental impact. Therefore i favor energy-effecient lighting such as T5 floros and LEDS as opposed to big HID units. I admit, alot of the stuff i had a hard time sourcing locally but with the exception of the 400W LED panel from China(however the 2 day delivery time makes me wonder...?) at least everything else was at least available within the country. Also, my list of organic amendments is extensive but together build great bio-diversity that builds upon itself. A little really does go a long way too. Its suprising how far 1.5kg of alfalfa meal will go. All in all organics is an endless road of enlightenment and amazment. peace.

Organic soil mix every year from the hippies down by the river, by the truck load, topped up with kelp teas, and neem oil, thats me ....a K.I.S.S method ever!

Great thread . I would watch that leaf mold. Hot and very nitrogen rich. Some of my strains take very little nitrogen. Leaf mold and living mulch actually hurts the yield and produces much more foliage. I also do not use guano. I use down to earth vegan mix and soft rock phosphate instead. I had a few small worm bins. Now I have 1 larger one. Which I have had for a while. Very little space. So I have to work with what I got. I don't use hid either. Led and induction. So no having to dispose of mercury bulbs that are harmful to the environment. Use of less electricity. Where in most places is nuclear. Luckily the entire valley here is powered by windmills and solar power. They are currently building another solar power plant. That's probably why the electric bill is 5 times cheaper than edison
My grow is veganic mainly because of my patients. Vegan smoke is the smoothest I ever had. Guano can have harmful pathogens and other animal byproducts as well. If this vegan thing doesn't work out. I may go back to using crab meal.

I quit using guanos a while back. The risk of contracting Histoplasmosis, Cryptosporidium, and a host of other respiratory infections is very real. Also, the same environmental impacts as Peat apply to Bat guano as well. It is NOT an infinite resource, and entire colonies of bats are affected by extracting the guano and disturbing their habitat. Seabirds as well.
I was attempting to achieve complete sustainability for my indoor garden. My outdoor garden is another story, but after a while, I found that I was at a point of diminished returns on my efforts. WHY try and be "no till" with an indoor small container grow? I was making my own BioChar, had a big assed worm bed, and was looking to start raising rabbits as well. I composted everything compostable, and before long I realized that I was spending more effort collecting or producing my own ingredients than I was able to devote to the plants. (Or anything else for that matter!)
I still have a good source of Rabbit manure (local Breeders), and now LLama beans (LLama rescue), compost, and biochar. I can make SUPERB soils with what I can gather up and still maintain my organic mind set in my cannabis garden.
I am still devoted to "no till" and sustainability in my outdoor veggie garden, and I do recycle my indoor soil. (It does get better with age)

Note on bat Guano. It IS a very good fert, no doubt about it, but it is not BETTER than bunny poo or LLama beans. Now Rabbits are an almost UNLIMITED and infinite source of ferts, prolific shitters that they are. And You can think of LLamas as big rabbits. There are many manures or amendments that can replace Bat Guano.
At one time, whale oil was considered an indispensable commodity......now not so much. Same goes for the guanos IMHO.

I use HID, disposing of bulbs properly (now what THEY do with 'em is another story). I attempt to stay as carbon neutral as possible, but if there is ever a "trade off", it's GOING to favor the plants, not the environment. 99% of the time, what's best for the plants is also what's good for the environment. I do this growing thing for a reason, and my primary goal was getting lost in my search for sustainability.

Bat manure can not only cause many physical problems but it can send a person loopy in the head also.

Sorry, ive been away for a couple days. Thanks for the thread love folks! We have started some great convo here about sustainability and enviro impacts of our grows. Most people i know in my area dont consider this stuff. they just consider how great the return is and have no prob. throwing more money at whatever problems they have, regardless of impacts. and it is a shame because i live in a costal state known for shellfish and abundant woodlands and wildlife. Organic farming has also really taken off here recently and the farmers markets are thriving. Lots of cow farms, i just worry about all the antibiotics and hormones and stuff most farmers feed them, not to mention corn. Kelp grows right off the marina docks,but im up in the air about sourcing it there because the boats surely have chemicals getting into the water right there. We do have a local company making kelp meal though and another making a lobster compost im getting into. I got a buddy who is a very "more is more" type pf person. I see him pulling terrible yields and just adding more and more lights and AN chem nutes...totally missing the bigger picture.

Even before my journey into organics, i have always been concerned about efficiency, specifically regarding lighting. Im currently vegging under a 4 bulb 4 foot t5 and its perfect for my space. But it pulls about 250watts and runs way hotter than i expected. I might go back to regular t12 s or cfls in the future. Not sure. I flower with a 400hps and have a small led pannel for side lighting and occasionally cfls on the side if needed. This works well for me and i can pull around .8 g/w, always striving for more though, of course. After my current supply of guano runs out, ill try not to use again!

Im still not quite a member of the 1g per watt club, but compared to most others ive seen, my garden is very efficient, im medical and 100% legal, but due to my job, i cant really be so out in the open or else my veg room would be a window sill.

One thing im gonna start experimenting with. My parents live in an old farm house and heat with wood. The basement is a dirt floor and has been used for over 100 years to store firewood (hardwood) tons of rich, black, bark compost to dig up!

What are good types of trees to leaves to take from for leaf mold? I guessing most hardwoods, and just make sure to avoid anything near pine trees and such since they are so acidic.

Alright, we had a couple good days and now this thread has been crickets for a while. So, still waiting on some convo about what are good trees for leaf mold. R other good, more sustainable subs for peat. Is coco necessarily me sustainable? I dont really know anything about it.

I also have a question about fish hydrolysate. Anybody ever make their own? Ive been thinking about it because im an avid fisherman, but ive heard its better to use saltwater fish than freshwater. Could prob. get scraps from the grocery store. Anyone have any experience? Apparently its pretty easy to make. Just some lacto, water, fish, and sawdust, and time. Would love to hear more from experience. Thanks.