The Thought of Thought

THE THOUGHT OF THOUGHT




Almost all the questions of interest to speculative minds are such that science cannot answer, and the confident explanation of theologians no longer seem as convincing as they did in former centuries. Is the world divided into mind and matter, and if so… what is mind and what is matter? Is mind subject to matter, or is it possessed of independent powers? Has the universe any unity or purpose? Is it evolving towards some goal? Are there really laws of nature, or do we believe in them only because of our innate love for order? Is man what he seems to the astronomer? A tiny lump of impure carbon and water impotently crawling on a small unimportant planet? Is he perhaps both at once?

Is there a way of living that is noble and another that is base? Or are all ways of living merely futile? If there is a way of living noble in what does it consist and how shall we achieve it? Must the good be eternal in order for it to be valued? Or is it worth seeking if the universe inexorably moving towards death? Is there such a thing as wisdom, or is what seems such merely the ultimate refinement of folly?

To such questions, no answers can be found in the laboratory. Theologies have professed to give answers all too definitely… but there very definiteness causes modern minds to view them with suspicion.

The studying of these questions, if not the answering of them is the businesses of philosophy.

Science can tell us what we can know, but what we can know is little, and if we forget how much we cannot know we become insensitive to many things of very great importance in the universe.

Theology on the other hand induces the dogmatic belief that we have knowledge, where in fact we have ignorance, and by doing so generates a kind of impertinent insolence towards the universe.

Uncertainty in the presents of vivid hopes and fears is painful, but must be endured if we wish to live without the support of comforting fairy tales……..

just giving out the information, comment if you like... it makes no difference to me, at least now you know. its up to you how you choose to react to this knowledge.

to everyone out there that believes in religion...lol, i will not post on accordance to your replies, because those notions are obsolete in my mind.

i think the universe has a 'goal' that is to realize itself, and express itself for itself. thats what im pretty sure the 'technological singularity' is. when consciousness merges with technology. [and the universe is totally unified in the sense that all particles can communicate pan-photonicly regardless of distance] when we find the answer to the universe [not 42 lol] that when we'll evolve into something better. humans feel incomplete [ie the need for a relationship/something to master] because A, we evolved that way, and B, we arent really seeing all of nature. weve evolved with the skills of sight, sound, touch, taste and smell because they were the most relevant factors in our lives. if we had senses that allowed us to feel all the particles flowing through us, and remember where each of our individual atoms came from, i dare say that we would live in a far different world. we live in a 2 dimensional perspective, that we only interpret as 3 dimensional. we add in the idea of a 4th, because time obviously does happen, and that about as far as matter goes. the other 7 dimentions are occupied by particles/energies that we can only see because weve built machines to detect them. and lastly, i dont know if theres truly 'noble' way to live, everyone is so caught up i being an individual to realize that were all trying to do the exact same thing. live peacefully expressive. though i believe that our physical bodies are destined to die, thats what theyre designed to do. eventually give out. at that point we can either A, prolong our current mind state and directly transfer our brain pattern into something lasting, synthetic and chrome, or move on and experience all the rest of the universe.

that was so beautiful, thank you so much lobster...sooo beatiful i loved reading that so much. going to be sharing that with some people too, thank you thank you.

no problem man, this is what i try to do as well. live lucidly and spread love to anyone who will listen. i play drums too, and i think that helps me conceptualize the breaking down of time into its most basic plank length, and communicating any possible sequence/combination/combination of sequences representing well, anything. be it emotion or cosmological event, everything has a unique 2d perspective of the universe, and its these overlapping veiws that comprise our symmetricly chaotic, infinitely round universe.

i want to sit down and talk with you for hours about these things, i really like your ideology on life. FRIENDS! lol

Zaehet Strife said:

THE THOUGHT OF THOUGHT




Almost all the questions of interest to speculative minds are such that science cannot answer, and the confident explanation of theologians no longer seem as convincing as they did in former centuries. Is the world divided into mind and matter, and if so… what is mind and what is matter? Is mind subject to matter, or is it possessed of independent powers? Has the universe any unity or purpose? Is it evolving towards some goal? Are there really laws of nature, or do we believe in them only because of our innate love for order? Is man what he seems to the astronomer? A tiny lump of impure carbon and water impotently crawling on a small unimportant planet? Is he perhaps both at once?

Is there a way of living that is noble and another that is base? Or are all ways of living merely futile? If there is a way of living noble in what does it consist and how shall we achieve it? Must the good be eternal in order for it to be valued? Or is it worth seeking if the universe inexorably moving towards death? Is there such a thing as wisdom, or is what seems such merely the ultimate refinement of folly?

To such questions, no answers can be found in the laboratory. Theologies have professed to give answers all too definitely… but there very definiteness causes modern minds to view them with suspicion.

The studying of these questions, if not the answering of them is the businesses of philosophy.

Science can tell us what we can know, but what we can know is little, and if we forget how much we cannot know we become insensitive to many things of very great importance in the universe.

Theology on the other hand induces the dogmatic belief that we have knowledge, where in fact we have ignorance, and by doing so generates a kind of impertinent insolence towards the universe.

Uncertainty in the presents of vivid hopes and fears is painful, but must be endured if we wish to live without the support of comforting fairy tales……..

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This truly depends on what type of "Theology" you are subscribing to. Theologies such as modern shamanism seek understanding of the underlying principles of reality and do so very much in accordance with modern science and philosophies - quantum mechanics in particular. Through careful scrutiny we can see that much of the ancient wisdom of traditional cultures are often in accordance with what modern science is just barely beginning to scratch the surface of, in regards to the nature of consciousness, life, and even the material world.

What I'm getting at is that there is no need for your disdain for religion. While your assertions in regards to theology are certainly accurate in regards to a majority, namely organized, power-hungry religion, your disdain for religion as a whole is based in ignorance. You are ignorant that there are in fact very large sects of religions people who adhere to your description of philosophy and questioning as one of the most important and fundamental tenets of their faith.

lobsterxmanx said:

i think the universe has a 'goal' that is to realize itself, and express itself for itself. thats what im pretty sure the 'technological singularity' is. when consciousness merges with technology. [and the universe is totally unified in the sense that all particles can communicate pan-photonicly regardless of distance] when we find the answer to the universe [not 42 lol] that when we'll evolve into something better. humans feel incomplete [ie the need for a relationship/something to master] because A, we evolved that way, and B, we arent really seeing all of nature. weve evolved with the skills of sight, sound, touch, taste and smell because they were the most relevant factors in our lives. if we had senses that allowed us to feel all the particles flowing through us, and remember where each of our individual atoms came from, i dare say that we would live in a far different world. we live in a 2 dimensional perspective, that we only interpret as 3 dimensional. we add in the idea of a 4th, because time obviously does happen, and that about as far as matter goes. the other 7 dimentions are occupied by particles/energies that we can only see because weve built machines to detect them. and lastly, i dont know if theres truly 'noble' way to live, everyone is so caught up i being an individual to realize that were all trying to do the exact same thing. live peacefully expressive. though i believe that our physical bodies are destined to die, thats what theyre designed to do. eventually give out. at that point we can either A, prolong our current mind state and directly transfer our brain pattern into something lasting, synthetic and chrome, or move on and experience all the rest of the universe.

Click to expand...

Our bodies are, in fact, able to detect many forms of subtle energy. The dimensions of thought and emotion are very real examples that even the most spiritually dense can connect with. Anyone who has ever felt the presence of spirit, magic, or sat in prayer/meditation speaking with their god can attest to this as well. Further examples include qi gong and various schools of energy work as taught in massage therapy colleges.

i totally understand your point of view. but how many Buddhists are there in the united states compared to christians or catholic or muslim for that matter. i agree, some religions or theologies do teach good morals and values without resorting to false or dogmatic truths, but they are very far inbetween.

maybe i should have clarified, and i do apologize for the misunderstanding

you think we have the mental capacity to "know" what "god" wants? needs? how do you know what "god" wants or needs, who told you? are you making things up? are you fallowing the words of others? or making up your own conclusions? how could any human even begin to imagine a "god" that has only ever been seen in our imaginations!? --the ultimate truth is that we cant, we shouldn't, and it is downright ignorant to do so. to me, and many of us out there, we understand that nothing in this universe is for certain, this is something that everyone needs to wake up to.

not trying to deny the existence of a "god" "creator" "energy" "magic" --whichever word you would like to choose. all im saying is that your view on "god" is wrong, because you cant ever know, and will never know in your lifetime. and if you try to tell me you do know... i know you are lying, because no one knows!!!!

I understand completely, and I certainly sympathize with the cause. My goal is to inform and enlighten people to the fact that there are other options out there. Spirituality is a necessary and valuable component to the human experience, and while the lies of the major corporate "religions" need to be exposed and abandoned, it becomes very difficult for people to find the other possibilities available to them when the only other option available is hate rhetoric spread by atheists.

The fact remains that a large number of people have a very real connection with their divinity and their spirituality. Those who don't feel this connection discount it, and in some cases, go to great lengths to attempt to denounce it based on their ignorance and the fact that large corporations(and they are nothing more than corporations at this point, though harsher terms could come to mind) exploit this for their own power and wealth. While their actions are noble, their ignorance of the very real aspects of religion and spirituality due to their lack of connection with it don't allow them to see the fact that you cannot possibly "change someone's mind" based on logic(or at least their non-logical conclusion of religion is bullshit) alone, when they have experienced and had their lives enriched by the very real aspects of spirituality. As more information becomes available about alternative views to the big three, they lose their grip on the people and the society, and this is a good thing.

Statements such as "theology is based in ignorance" only promote further ignorance, as well as a very heated and mean-spirited divide between those who seek to enlighten others(the atheists) and those who seek to enlighten themselves(the innocent seeker looking for answers outside of the large faith based corporations). Instead of trying to convince people that all forms of religion and spirituality are loads of bullshit(they aren't - even the big three have their strong points), the focus should be on the fact that there are so many possibilities out there that only personal study into the many, many aspects of spirituality will bring someone the answers they are looking for.

The major religious corporations regain a foothold in this aspect - many people are unwilling(lack of motivation) or unable(lack of intelligence or critical thinking skills) to search for the answers on their own, and are completely willing(due to apathy) to be spoon fed whatever someone wants to shove in there. These people have only themselves to blame for their ignorance. This isn't necessarily a problem for the individual - many are very happy with the limited amount of non-knowledge they receive from their church, and if a major point of life is to live happily, then living in blissful ignorance works just fine for them. It becomes a problem when many, many individuals are rallied by these people who receive extensive and specific training in what are essentially brainwashing techniques, to persuade large amounts of innocent people to work toward their less than virtuous goals($$$).

I may have gotten long winded here - but my point is this: Learn, seek, question, and think. This is the only path to enlightenment(barring possibly some large quantity of a combination of THC,CBD,DMT,and LSD) , regardless of what anyone may tell you.

I like your philosophy on philosophy(lol) and I think it's a great way to live life, but I feel you've been jaded or embittered(who wouldn't be), as well as unaware of the great diversity and wealth of knowledge availablein the spiritual community(most people are), and this leads you to your conclusions on theology.

As an aside, teaching good morals and values shouldn't ever be the point of religion. The ONLY point of religion should be fostering a healthy connection with the divine. Teaching morals and ethics can be one of the many tools on the path to this connection, but this is another common misconception that needs to be shed.

Zaehet Strife said:

you think we have the mental capacity to "know" what "god" wants? needs? how do you know what "god" wants or needs, who told you? are you making things up? are you fallowing the words of others? or making up your own conclusions? how could any human even begin to imagine a "god" that has only ever been seen in our imaginations!? --the ultimate truth is that we cant, we shouldn't, and it is downright ignorant to do so. to me, and many of us out there, we understand that nothing in this universe is for certain, this is something that everyone needs to wake up to.

not trying to deny the existence of a "god" "creator" "energy" "magic" --whichever word you would like to choose. all im saying is that your view on "god" is wrong, because you cant ever know, and will never know in your lifetime. and if you try to tell me you do know... i know you are lying, because no one knows!!!!

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You're making some pretty wild assumptions about my spirituality based on absolutely nothing - as I said nothing up to this point in regards to my faith. I'll respond in a while after I'm not quite so pissed off. I had considered you above this type of shit based on your musings on philosophy.

i agree, but we've evolved past the point where we need religion/theology to show us what good morals are, what good values are. love is my religion, and that's how it should be for everyone.

karri0n said:

You're making some pretty wild assumptions about my spirituality based on absolutely nothing - as I said nothing up to this point in regards to my faith. I'll respond in a while after I'm not quite so pissed off. I had considered you above this type of shit based on your musings on philosophy.

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your faith? your faith in what? your religion? i don't understand why you are upset, because if you had no denomination you would have no reason to be. im not atheist, im not anything, i believe that love is what people need. love, not religion. having a relationship with yourself is whats important, because you cant have a relationship with something you cannot conceive.

theology WAS based in ignorance!!! comon man! theology/religion was created to help early man try to understand/explain a world where science had not yet been discovered.

Zaehet Strife said:

your faith? your faith in what? your religion? i don't understand why you are upset, because if you had no denomination you would have no reason to be. im not atheist, im not anything, i believe that love is what people need. love, not religion. having a relationship with yourself is whats important, because you cant have a relationship with something you cannot conceive.

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I used the word "faith" to mean "spiritual beliefs" - I don't mean to mince words and I apologize for the misuse here. As to why I was upset - it was due to your immediate assumption that I was both a christian and a fool, and your implication that I'm ignorant. Don't make intentionally inflammatory remarks and people won't get angry.

Love is the core of spirituality. This is correct. What you're incorrect about is the nature of gods. Note that this is plural. If you're talking about "god" as some insurmountable, singular, supreme being, then no, we can't truly conceptualize its nature. It's a massive energy source completely unfathomable to our minds. It doesn't "want" anything. It's just there, underlying everything in existence. Gods are concepts created by man - personifications of this energy source, constructed so that we CAN have an understanding of divinity. How do I know what my god wants? For one it's in the lore, and I know his character, morals, and values. I know how I should act in order to emulate him. If I have a question and I can't come up with an answer based on what I know, I'll ask him and meditate.

Zaehet Strife said:

"how can any human being even begin to imagine a "god" that has only ever existed in our imaginations"

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This one is just nonsense... if it's in our imaginations, we can imagine it.

Zaehet Strife said:

the ultimate truth is that we cant, we shouldn't, and it is downright ignorant to do so.

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Godchecker.com has over 3700 entries - so it's quite obvious that we "can". Should or shouldn't are matters of opinion no matter which way you try to spin it.

Ignorant of what, exactly? The word "ignorant" implies that I am missing some facts. I love knowledge and am interested in what facts you have that I don't in this regard.

Zaehet Strife said:

theology WAS based in ignorance!!! comon man! theology/religion was created to help early man try to understand/explain a world where science had not yet been discovered.

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You're actually incorrect in this. It's fairly certain that in several ancient societies, people understood that mythology was supposed to be metaphorical. Yes, some mythology was made as an explanation for the unexplainable, but if this were always the case, we wouldn't still have mythology.

Zaehet Strife said:

not trying to deny the existence of a "god" "creator" "energy" "magic" --whichever word you would like to choose. all im saying is that your view on "god" is wrong, because you cant ever know, and will never know in your lifetime. and if you try to tell me you do know... i know you are lying, because no one knows!!!!

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Can't ever know what? What are my views on god and why are they wrong?

You're implying you not only know exactly what I'm thinking, but that you have more knowledge on the matter than I will possibly ever have. My views on the nature of gods and of the universe are factually correct, and most scholars of physics or theology will attest to them. You even said it yourself in your previous post.

Yes, someone knows...You!! Now, I'm not saying you have to understand it, but you at some point will come to know it. A common fault of man is separating himself from the universe as if he's some sort of individual being and the universe is something separate (external). And speaking from a scientific view, we know the mind to exist in thought only as a mechanism of the brain, but yet the brain is still a very physical part of this known universe. So it should be only clear that all thoughts are still birthed from the same universe.

I pretty much agree with your prespective thought on thought, besides your sided insight of religion and Karr remarks were pretty much dead on with mine in thought. However, I like to note that some/me view resistance/opposition needed just as much as expanding/evolving is needed to grow, or else we wouldn't.. And at any given moment of time, you are playing in one of those roles in almost every aspect of your life.

Another thing you speak on is how theology was created to understand/explain the world, however, these are the same qualities of reason which science is based. And to speak on another, so is the quality of enslavement and control... I'm not trying to debate you, just like to impart differing PoV

Anyhow, an awesome thread you've started, I've really enjoyed the commentary from all

Zaehet Strife said:

you think we have the mental capacity to "know" what "god" wants? needs? how do you know what "god" wants or needs, who told you? are you making things up? are you fallowing the words of others? or making up your own conclusions? how could any human even begin to imagine a "god" that has only ever been seen in our imaginations!? --the ultimate truth is that we cant, we shouldn't, and it is downright ignorant to do so. to me, and many of us out there, we understand that nothing in this universe is for certain, this is something that everyone needs to wake up to.

not trying to deny the existence of a "god" "creator" "energy" "magic" --whichever word you would like to choose. all im saying is that your view on "god" is wrong, because you cant ever know, and will never know in your lifetime. and if you try to tell me you do know... i know you are lying, because no one knows!!!!

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hey zaehet. ive only read the first post on this thread so far, and im about to read through the whole thing. but before i forget, i would like to recommend a book for you to read. i think you would like it. its called How We Decide. heres a link. if you dont trust the link, just search for it on barnes n noble. it shows a lot about how the parts of the brain work together to make decisions. i just noticed theres a 15% off code on the top right of the site. dont forget to use it

thanks lugar, i will check into it, my brain is about dead from reading so much lol! maybe i need to take a break hehehe.

Zaehet Strife said:

Can't ever know what? What are my views on god and why are they wrong?

You're implying you not only know exactly what I'm thinking, but that you have more knowledge on the matter than I will possibly ever have. My views on the nature of gods and of the universe are factually correct, and most scholars of physics or theology will attest to them. You even said it yourself in your previous post.


bro, you got it all wrong. im claiming that i know nothing about god. im claiming that you know nothing about god. im claiming that you claim to know about god, when you do not know about god . THAT my friend, is what i am claiming. your views are not wrong per-say, but my friend i do say that your perception needs further thought.

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Anyone who studies theology or religion knows that their understanding of god can ALWAYS do with further thought. I won't argue that.

However, It is factually true that gods as we know them by many names, are personifications created by man(along with some natural influences), in order to give definite characteristics and provide some understanding into the nature of divinity, which, in essence is formless, more or less nondescript, and mostly insurmountable by the human mind.

It's only with the very latest in discovery that science can begin to reconcile just how it is that these personifications, while created by man, can be every bit as real as what we see and feel around us in the physical world. The characteristics given can be drawn on and used by man for nearly any purpose, from spiritual growth to material gain to purely malicious purposes, and can be shown to be quite effective.

You may know nothing about the gods, but telling someone who dedicates a large portion of their life to the study of the gods, religion, and mythology that they don't either, is insulting. I wouldn't tell a Catholic priest that they know nothing about their God, either.