Tis the season: bubblelicious and superskunk 400W grow

Bob Smith said:

Generally "1" is your best bet.

See if the plants can sort themselves out for a few days, and if they appear to be getting worse, then take action.

Just my $.02.

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I like that... it's the way I'm leaning. I tried transplanting out of a similar problem last year. The one that made it and "went female" was the one I left to fend for itself.

Kriegs said:

Took a closer look at the superskunks -- got little necrotic tips. They're just not happy with the arrangement at all. They've adjusted to the light, but now the tips... they don't like the soil either. Not really a nute burn (I know what that looks like..); more like a salt burn.

Sorry, no pics right now - left my camera at work and I won't be back there at all until Jan 4; so that's another issue.

Had four plants run into issues with pre-ferted soil last year. One came out great; the other three went male. I think theres' something to the "stress=male" theory. I've got 4 trains of thought right now.

1. Ride it out...
2. Water heavier to move any potential salts down the soil column (shouldn't be an issue already..)
3. Transplant them into a quality unferted soil
4. Pop a couple of new beans and put them in a better soil; let these ride as they are..

I'll mull on it overnight. Any thoughts appreciated.

Two of the bubblelicious look great; the other a little stressed itself. This sucks right now...

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1. Might be the right choice, but it might not. I know that doesn't help much, but I had problems w/ 'prefert' soil on my first grow, as well. I've come to the conclusion that a 'soilless' mix like sunshine or promix w/ a little xtra perlite and worm castings is the way to go if your going to grow in soil. MG prefert soil just isn't appropriate for seedlings. I know that you surround it w/ other stuff, but the roots grow down more than out initially, so the tap may already be in the MG. I used MG too, man. It's my humble opinion that 'preferted' soil is for more experienced growers.

2. Watering heavier isn't going to help much. You have small seedlings in a big pot of mostly time release fertilized soil. The more water you add, the more fertilizer is going to be introduced, not necessarily flushed out. Plus, flushing at any time stresses plants a little, more so when they're young.

3. This probably isn't what you want to hear, b/c I know you like to KISS. However, this is most likely your best bet. It is what I ended up having to do b/c I waited and ended up losing 1/4 of my seedlings, which was a lot considering starting w/ 32. In addition, you will have some good stuff for the next grow, too. Just store according to the bag (ie, 'cool dry place')

4. I would try to save what you have first, especially considering the fact that you have good genetics and still might be able to save them, but I guess this is relative to you and whether you have money to burn, more of the particular strain, etc.

Last, I'm not exactly sure what you mean by 'salt burn'. Just to clarify, nutrients are in fact 'salts', so these are one in the same. It's hard to say, but it 'sounds' like you have described nutrient burn, and at this stage in the game, probably. I would move the light up slightly or place the stressed seedlings on the edges and the healthy ones under the direct light. Another problem w/ preferted soil, if the roots of a seedling are growing directly or nearby one of the fertilizer pellets, this can be an issue. Since the roots grow down, and I assume you are watering to some extent, you will still get some water seepage directly under you seedlings. If there is preferted soil underneath the plant at any depth, then the water could be activating fertilizer... If the root is near it - burn.

Something to consider... Start thinking of fertilizer, temp, light, air (02 and CO2), size of plant, etc, basically all of the essentials that plants need to grow, as a system. There is a balance that you have to find in this system taking into account all of the variables. When one is off, there will be problems. You might already know this, but it helped me out a lot when the 'light bulb' in my head finally went off.

Last, Jorge Cervantes' book, 'THe Growers Bible', specifically states that any environmental stress directly relates to more males. Almost any kind of stress whatsoever. Also, increasing N level = more females, increasing level of K = more MALES, lower temps = more females, high humidity = more females, low growing medium moisture = more MALES, more blue light = more females, fewer hours of 'day'light = more females. I don't know if I believe some of these, as I have a scientific background and believe more in genetics, and I would like to see where this info was obtained and data to support it. But he states that it most of the information was received from seed companies. Who knows, just thought I would share.

Good luck making your decision, and hope this didn't make you even more indecisive. Merry Christmas, dak

Thanks, dak, for your input - I appreciate it.

I've decided to go with #1 and just ride it out. I have a little time to play with - I could restart if I had to. And, I do have the two bubblelicious that are going gangbusters - if even one of those goes female, I'll be set for a long time.

I think you're right about the roots getting deep and nute burn -- I do recall from some transplants last year that the roots on a little 2-inch seedling go a whole lot further than you'd think. I feel a little silly right now about the "cool soil in the center" idea; I knew better than that and just didn't dig deep into last years' brain files - lazy thinking.

I did back the light off a few inches. It's about 20" off the tops right now. I swear they look a little happier this morning, tho it's probably wishful thinking.

Wife had to work today, so I borrowed her camera and got new pics.

You can see how those two bubblelicious are very happy and just blowing doors off everyone else (the two in the back right, and 2nd pic close up). The third pic is one of my struggling superskunks - they all look like this. The MH light distorts things, but if you look closely, you can see that the leaf tips have died back. You can also see some yellowing around the edges -- no way in heck they are deficient in anything right now. Maybe that's an expression of light stress.

Second to last is the superskunks (left) compared to the bub's (right). The last one is a bubblelicious who has taken up lot with the unhappy superskunks. Traitor to her kind, I say..

I guess these aren't the worst plants I've seen, so that reinforces my decision to just ride things out.

The light is at 21 inches now.

I was also trying not to water heavy so as to keep my "cool soil" in the middle from cross-contaminating with the hot soil. I think that was a bad idea in retrospect. I think you just have to water correctly period -- thorough watering, followed by a thorough drying period.

Next time, I'm going to start in smaller pots with a cool soil, and up-can later in the grow. I see why a lot of people do that now.

This really shows you how much plants are individuals, too... Every plant here has been treated same, same, same all the way to this point. Very different results.

Kriegs said:

Wife had to work today, so I borrowed her camera and got new pics.

You can see how those two bubblelicious are very happy and just blowing doors off everyone else (the two in the back right, and 2nd pic close up). The third pic is one of my struggling superskunks - they all look like this. The MH light distorts things, but if you look closely, you can see that the leaf tips have died back. You can also see some yellowing around the edges -- no way in heck they are deficient in anything right now. Maybe that's an expression of light stress.

Second to last is the superskunks (left) compared to the bub's (right). The last one is a bubblelicious who has taken up lot with the unhappy superskunks. Traitor to her kind, I say..

I guess these aren't the worst plants I've seen, so that reinforces my decision to just ride things out.

The light is at 21 inches now.

I was also trying not to water heavy so as to keep my "cool soil" in the middle from cross-contaminating with the hot soil. I think that was a bad idea in retrospect. I think you just have to water correctly period -- thorough watering, followed by a thorough drying period.

Next time, I'm going to start in smaller pots with a cool soil, and up-can later in the grow. I see why a lot of people do that now.

This really shows you how much plants are individuals, too... Every plant here has been treated same, same, same all the way to this point. Very different results.

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Ah, bro!! Leave them alone, they are FINE!!! No worries at all. Leave the light up for a bit, and see how they do this week. They're already stretching a little, so if they don't regress, start lowering it an inch at a time for a couple days while ensuring they're still healthy. Keep your steady watering cycle. Like you've said, it is the most important thing at this point. If one of them doesn't need water, don't water it, etc. I was expecting something much worse! They don't look too stressed, man, they are all growing well! Have a good one.

dakin3d said:

Ah, bro!! Leave them alone, they are FINE!!! No worries at all. Leave the light up for a bit, and see how they do this week. They're already stretching a little, so if they don't regress, start lowering it an inch at a time for a couple days while ensuring they're still healthy. Keep your steady watering cycle. Like you've said, it is the most important thing at this point. If one of them doesn't need water, don't water it, etc. I was expecting something much worse! They don't look too stressed, man, they are all growing well! Have a good one.

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Yeah, once I took the pics and just stared at them for awhile I was like..."I dunno.. they're not that bad.." And I swear they look better after a day with the light higher. BTW, that one stretchy one has firmed up good.

So yeah, back to just chillin'

Okay, it's been three full days since I noticed my skunks were truly unhappy and raised the light. Well, it looks like the skunks are off sick leave and are going back to work. They finished fledging the top leaf set in the last photos, and have another emerging right now. So far, I see one tip of one leaf died back slightly, but that's one out of 40 new tips.

I'm still a newb, but I know this is true -- the evidence of what is happening now is in the new leaves. If things hold up, I'd say they're back on track.

Took some pic's today to mark the 3-week point from when the seeds hit the soil.

As said, the skunks look a little better, but just a little. They still have what I call "little plant disease" -- taking on kind of a miniature representation of themselves in response to stress. Tiny leaves, tiny stature, but still growing. Oh, well -- they'll do what they do. If they're still struggling by the end of next week, I'll think about transplanting them into a cooler soil. The only trouble with that is, being in a big pot from the start, the roots have probably fanned out all over the place and transplanting will be very traumatic. Another argument for starting in small containers.

From first to last, we have a group shot, three shots of the superskunks (notice the diff betw. the lower fried leaves, and the new ones - better for sure), and two shots of the bubblelicious. One bub shot is one going "great guns"; the other is the struggler who seems to be pulling out of it.

I've been rotating them daily under the light. They got water today -- a good full watering; not enough to produce runoff - didn't have enough water. I need more / bigger containers for de-gassing the Chlorine off my tap water.

There's a lot to be said for keeping things simple, but I need to upgrade my approach in a couple areas for sure. I hate struggling, unhappy plants of any kind, not just MJ.

Comments anyone? Feel free..

The "hot soil" you speak of is just Miracle grow with some lime added in?

Tidalwavedave said:

The "hot soil" you speak of is just Miracle grow with some lime added in?

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Yes... The MG "moisture control" has 3 months worth of feed in it. It's great when you get past the seedling / early veg stage, but this is two grows now with the same problem -- early leaf curl and stunting from overnutrition.

MG moisture control is really designed for mature potted plants -- marigolds and such that you buy fully developed and usually blooming already.

They're pulling out of it now - I have one remaining plant out of the 6 that I have lingering doubts about, but the rest are really picking it up now.

The one bubblelicious getting burned and curled was a surprise -- I had two bubs in my last batch and they were absolutely bullet-proof like the two bullies I've got going here.

Seedlings feed themselves from the cotyledons (those two little paddle-shaped deals that come right out of the seed) for the first couple of weeks -- there is no need for any external nutrition.

As I said early on, I was trying to keep this as simple as possible, but I'm concluding that the best way to go is to take the trouble to start plants in small containers with a cool soil, like a seedling starter. Run 'em two weeks like that, then up-can into something like MG, or FFOF, which is also "hot" for early growth stages. I've also seen a lot of good reports on MG Organic Choice -- might try that too, next time. And now that I'm at this point, I don't know why I wanted things so "simple" -- I love having to do something for my plants. The thing I see getting people in trouble is where they feel they HAVE TO DO SOMETHING EVERY DAY for their plants.

There's obviously a plant-dependent element here, too -- strain-wise and (as that burnt bubblelicious attests) individual-wise.

To that last point, I also am seeing the value in starting more plants than you want in the end. Think about MJ in the wild -- produces tons of seeds that are heavy and drop right in place. That strategy implies there will be tremendous attrition from one seedling group to the next -- no way they all survive being packed into one place like that. So, by nature that virtually assures that any group of seed you select is going to have some runts and defectives in it; no way around it.

The more I learn about this, the more I wish I could "go big", but I'm so damn happy to be in a med state now that it just seems super-stupid to violate the law out of simple greed. So I leave as is...

Check this thread out https://www.rollitup.org/newbie-central/1488-miracle-grow.html

Tidalwavedave said:

Check this thread out https://www.rollitup.org/newbie-central/1488-miracle-grow.html

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Yeah, I'm well-aware of the debates around MG products. Been in on a few.. It's great fun, and good food for thought.

I'm not sure which side of the debate you were trying to illustrate with the thread link... The author may be a great grower, but completely discredits his chemistry knowledge up front by claiming MG doesn't have enough N; quite the contrary - the primary problem it causes in the early grow stages is classic N burn. And the NPK balance is virtually the same as all the fancy-label stuff; along with a lot of the mikes. The pH arguments are the biggest bunk of all. I have a geochemistry degree, and worked in analytical labs for years. The ways RIU'ers assess pH in soil is pure bunkum, and most people don't have the lab cred's to be able measure soil pH (it's not runoff; it's a multi-step wet lab procedure that no home grower is going to duplicate).

But I find it kind of a pointless debate, ultimately. MG products used in the right way with more resilient strains, or in the hands of growers that recognize what their plants are expressing back to them will grow great weed. I've still got a suitcase full of MG weed from last year. All my friends and family, long-time smokers all, almost always make unsolicited comments on how great it is. I've been smoking it now for 9 months -- no tolerance, very high ceiling, awesome citrus-pine sol taste. I love it. If this is second-rate weed, I can't imagine what first-rate is.

I think a lot of challenges come from newbs using fortified MG products without knowing anything about plants or growing, period. It seems "easy" and "all set up" when it's actually a complex approach in disguise. I'm a newb at MJ, but a veteran at everything else plants -- I know the signs of trouble from a lot of other plants, although I'm def. still learning a lot about starting things from seed and managing indoor conditions.

Ultimately, I've concluded that starting MJ from seed in standard fortified MG products is a bad idea. It's just too hot for most plants and causes troubles you don't need to go thru. The vaunted FFOF has this same problem. I think all this is easily avoidable by starting out in cooler mediums. After that, I think the fortified MG (or other) stuff will do its best work.

The reason why I was asking about the soil is I heard but havnt tested myself is that MG is acidic compared to other types of soils. So by adding the lime could have made it to acidic for your plants and locking out some nutrients. I use Fox farm Ocean crest(Something like that) works very well in veg stage but needs a few nutrient additives later on towards the flower stage. I really want to try Roots organic a friend of mine used it without adding nutrients and the plants looked and tasted perfect was very surprised the soil lasted that long. Have you checked the roots to see if the plant is root bound to the container?

Tidalwavedave said:

The reason why I was asking about the soil is I heard but havnt tested myself is that MG is acidic compared to other types of soils. So by adding the lime could have made it to acidic for your plants and locking out some nutrients. I use Fox farm Ocean crest(Something like that) works very well in veg stage but needs a few nutrient additives later on towards the flower stage. I really want to try Roots organic a friend of mine used it without adding nutrients and the plants looked and tasted perfect was very surprised the soil lasted that long. Have you checked the roots to see if the plant is root bound to the container?

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I wrote you a nice treatise on soil pH, lime, etc -- computer crashed and now you get the short version.

Lime raises, never lowers pH, and only in really acid soils. In a soil near-neutral (7.0), it doesn't raise pH as much as it just takes up acids to keep the soil from "going acid" over time. As for MG's pH, the mainline MG products are made for 95% of the plants on the market -- which share MJ's ideal pH of 6.5. It would be commercial suicide to mega-produce a soil that doesn't hit this, or come very close.

These 2-gal pots will take these plants to finish. Root occupancy is probably still less than 5% at this point.

I had really meant to go FFOF (FoxFarm Ocean Forest, is what you meant) this year just to check it out and satisfy my curiosity, but it came down to "do I use these perfectly good MG bags in my possession, or spend $25 I don't have on a special bag of soil?" Next time, maybe..

Thanks for clearing that up with the lime. Never used lime before in soil so not sure how it worked. Don't be surprised when you look at the drainage holes and you see roots piling up. The container is a major variable in how the big the plant grows. This growth could be from the strain or the vitality of the clone, so many variables to try and account for.

Tidalwavedave said:

Thanks for clearing that up with the lime. Never used lime before in soil so not sure how it worked. Don't be surprised when you look at the drainage holes and you see roots piling up. The container is a major variable in how the big the plant grows. This growth could be from the strain or the vitality of the clone, so many variables to try and account for.

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Always happy to talk lime, carbonates, pH .. (how fun..).

I think I just figured out the problem with the superskunks: Ca/Mg imbalance, and they're not liking it (strain-sensitive to it..? Bubblelicious not?). I've noticed by watching over the last 2-3 days that the new leaves are good, but gradually go the way of the earlier distressed ones.

Why? I used CaCO3 lime, not Ca/MgCO3.. so there's probably a lot of extra Ca lying around with no counter-balancing Mg. That's my theory.

It looks pretty classic -- interveinal chlorosis, tips and edges upturning, necrotic tips...

If anyone thinks I'm off-base, check this link and see if I'm mis-reading anything. https://www.rollitup.org/marijuana-plant-problems/157345-have-plant-problem-check-here.html Hearing no convincing arguments to the contrary, I will hit the worst-looking superskunk with a light Epsom salt solution next time, and compare effects with the others.

Treated the worst superskunk with espom salts today at 1 tsp/gallon. Watered thoroughly with the epsom solution to get runoff out of the bottom. I got one "before" pic and my camera battery went dead. I'll take an "after" once there's a result, good or bad. Hopefully, I'll have an idea whether this is working by the next watering in 2-3 days, so I can hit the rest of the sufferers then.

Comments are welcome; hadn't mentioned that in awhile....

Okay, got the camera on its feet -- and realized there are two pics of the plant I treated. I'm going to take pics of it every day to try to weed out raw perception and wishful thinking as to whether it's really recovering or not.

Not the worst case of struggles I've seen, so I figure I have a little time to make sure this is the problem before I just start hitting everyone with epsom salts.

Everyone else got watered today; fully with run-off this time (got some new vessels).

looking great bro scribed!