Turning coal into...Ok ..Silver!

In order to make As bright CW leds they choose the most powerful bins of the blue dies at the range of 465-475 nm ...

So the rest power bins left from the selection are made blue leds 465-475 nm ( with crappy efficiency ) and being put in led growing panels
amongst some other FEW implementations
(where have you seen last time a blue power led being used ,huh ? )

A great market ..The suckers ..the growers..Let's throw them the useless blue leds that were left out from being white PC leds .
Let us make them growing led panels...

My self as their customer once,I've asked for 430-440 and 440-450 nm blue leds ...
Lots of them ...More than 500 pcs ...
(I had a 'blue period' ,myself once...)

I was suprised by the answer ....

They did not wanted to sell to me those leds !
Why ?

"Of course we can make them ,but we do not sell them as they are not efficient and bright as the 465-475 ones.
Not good for market.
We are offering you 50% discount for 600 pcs of 465-475 nm blue leds instead .
Thank you ,blah-bla-blah...."

!!
WTF !!!!

I had hot cash and they do not sell ?
!!!
Those ones ?
Unbelievable...

They think I must be totally stupid ...
Of course they have powerful bins at 430-450 nm range and of course they are less bright ,as they are shorter wls of blue.
Dimmer to human eye ....

But why they did not want to sell those leds ?
( genuine bridgelux chips )

Because they will make double the profit if they make them WW and NW leds ..
That's why...

The 'left overs ' are few and sold only by tens ,usually.
You can imagine their efficiency and power bin.
000-xyb-bl-450-crap- ,... something ....

And those short wls blue leds are really being praised & treasured by the growers..
Let's put them in the led panels or sell them for gold !!!

Well...
Trade ...

Why the shorter wls chips are so worthy for the led manufacturers ?

Because of the less 'visible' to human eye shorter blue wls ..
And the fewer photons ,but with lots of energy each ...

Very useful aspects of an excitation source,for making PC NW or WW leds...

Very useful ,indeed ..

(break for rolling one more .. )

PetFlora said:

Kudos SDS

Sounds more and more like high quality 20-50w (maybe up to 100) CW + WW cobs= Cree, Oslon, Luxeon, Helios, Nichia... 1:3

Perhaps one big ~ 100w NW cob in the center surrounded by smaller WWs???

I have stayed with NW + WW led globes/tubes, and thanks to Jeff at A51, last grow I used 2 ufo 90s (3500 + 5000K).

At bud set, I added my 4 ~ 16w WW tubes and had 2 fine looking clones going until I burned the piss out of them with Sea Crop minerals.

Even though it was < 200ppm, that was on top of the full range Hydroponic Research V + B nutes. Probably would have worked fine, if I only mixed CaMg + minerals

Click to expand...

Yes,we 'll discuss that further ...But you 're almost right on spot ,there ...
Just wait a tad ...
You will understand by yourself ,quite a bit of things ...

" Lower blue wls at 430-450 nm range appear dimmer to human eye ...."

How's that an advantage ?

Well...In order to save phosphor material,actually it is an advantage .....

How you can make a NW led ...

A led almost as bright as a CW led,but with a 'warmer' light than the latter ?

By two ways ..(Ok...a third way is the combo of the previous two)


Either by reducing the amount of blue light ...

or by increasing the amount or changing the type of phosphor used ,both having the same result,that being increasing the power at yellow wls ....

Let's see the ways ....

Decreasing the amount of blue ..
Meaning actually ?

Well that can be translated either like using a lower power blue led chip than before ,which will make a dim CW led ...
Or,either by using a dimmer to human vision blue excitation source,without great losses in radiant power,which -later to be explained- translates into adequate/average/good/more than good phosphor's emitted light luminosity...

By using the same type and amount of YAG phosphor as in CW ,but changing to a shorter wls blue chip,the led now becomes NW ...
Longer wl yellow ,amber and nitride red phosphors, are way more expensive than Yag 560-580 nm peak phosphor...


So seldomly,only in custom orders they actually use different phosphors than those used in CW.
Usually for higher CRI NW ...(of lower efficiency ,of course ,partially due to more re-excitaton losses .)


But why NW then have lower power in blue range ,(~ 10-15%) ?
How come ,if the same phosphor type and amount is used,like in CW leds,NW emit less blue photons than CW ?

Firstly because they emit less photons from start .....From being short wls blue dies ...
Less but more powerful photons than the465-475 nm chips emit firstplace....

Secondly,due to the larger energy those photons carry ,the re-exitation of the phosphor is much more present.
The phosphor gets "more " excited from shorter wls ...It 'glows' brighter' ....
More yellow light emitted .from same amount and type of phosphor like in CW leds !!!
Pretty cool,huh ?
Neutral white light,is emitted then from the led ....
Due to longer 'gap' between die excitation peak and phosphor peak,excitation losses are also greater ..
So NW are of lower efficiency of CW ...Still emitting ~50% in 500-600 nm green region,same peak as in CW ,but peak at blue range
is now at 440-450 nm ...Way better blue peak for mj ..
.Due to more-rexcitation ,actually the phosphor emission peak is being 'moved' towards 570-590 nm ....
So they emit more ambers than CW leds emit ....Sacrificing efficiency,though..Not though so much, as in the case of WW leds ...

I think these are also available in 5000, possibly 4500

Is it the same crap cob tech? Doesn't say othr than 6500K

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Reflector-Cup-COB-150w-LED-High-Bay-Light-Factory-Exhibition-Warehouse-/190976418297?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c7714e1f9

Still in case of NW leds ,by making them this way ,phosphor material savings are achieved ....

Are they any good for mj ?

Ohhh yes ! ....
They are ....

They are the perfect cheapo source of decent led for providing blue-green and yellow wls to mj ,in case of cheapo tunning or cheapo DIY building ....

If they are quality made with bridgelux chips,even better ...
But one needs to 'disect' parts of small orders at first,in order to discover which eastern seller is actually selling the real thing.

Even those eastern cheapos can totally transform a cheapo led light ,if they are installed in place of any excisting blue leds ..
( Either good ones or crappy ones,in both cases mj does not like any blue leds while flowering ,Caution: She needs a small amount of diffused blue light but not blue leds !!!)

NW are ideal ..
Not the most efficient of leds...
But still ...Use them wisely and even those 'eastern' cheapos,can surpass the overall growing efficiency of almost any CFL/fluo or even some types of MH ...

PetFlora said:

I think these are also available in 5000, possibly 4500

Is it the same crap cob tech? Doesn't say othr than 6500K

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Reflector-Cup-COB-150w-LED-High-Bay-Light-Factory-Exhibition-Warehouse-/190976418297?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c7714e1f9

Click to expand...

It falls into what I'm claiming here ,yes ....
If underneath the P layer , the chips are Bridgelux,ok ...
Then go for the lowest price possible....


When they 'hit' me with the low efficiency/bad for market excuse ,I stroke back ,asking for a better price then....

And then,a kind lady(who left the company ) ,had the courage,to e-mail me and ..enlighten me for lot's of things that I was not aware of ...

Wait ...You'll get the whole picture ...

What about WW leds then ?

Well ,here the story gets deeper ...

Usually a tiny amount of longer wl peaking red/amber phosphor (peak: 620-630 nm ) is added to the YAG one ..
That phosphor is more expensive also ...

In seldom cases only,another type of amber (590-610 nm ) single phosphor is used ....Of course a better option ...

Why ? ...
Because mixing two or more phosphors the emission curve gets wider ....More re-excitation..more losses..less efficiency ...
Different phosphor particle size distribution may cause phenomena that lead to further power losses/faults ..
In case of a single phosphor things are different,somewhat
Simpler...

Again in case of WW ,shorter wls blue dies ,are saving phosphor costs .
Clearly due to less number of photons (which means less blue photons escaping the phosphor ) and carrying more energy...
(In order to excite the wide range of amber phosphor emission,to it's fullest ...)

Are they useful in growing mj ?
Yes ..Those of 3500-3000 K /75-80 CRI (most common eastern WW leds ) ,are in fact very-very good for the job.
They make a wonderful combo with NW leds ...

WW have also, way better efficiency than most CFL/fluo at same temperature range ..
Closer (yes the cheapos ) to the efficiency of a HPS that has been used for two-three grow cycles ..
Thus ,regarding operational time and PAR spectra/light quality ,are in fact way better in growing abilities ,than a slightly used HPS ...


To be continued ,tomorrow..
Maybe...

Thanks for taking the time sds. Any time you feel like sharing...help the masses to make sense of a chaotic led world.

Oh ..
Thank you !

Tomorrow ,then..

And here is already tomorrow !
(Monday ...)

Let us see some of the Eastern monochromatics then ....

We already said enough about blue dies ...

Let's play with the chemistry and magic behind the eastern red leds ...

Those leds with the magical red photon sea of life ...

I could read this all day long....I hope there is a chapter about cheapo led- Arrays

650-670 nm Deep reds .

Chips usually made from Epiled,with a semiconductor alloy of zinc oxide doped Gallium phosphide (ZnO-GaP )

Zinc oxide doped Gallium phosphide (ZnO-GaP )is used for manufacturing deep reds .... from 1968 ...
Old unefficient tech ....
When the chip gets hot the emission peak moves towards ~700 nm or even further to IR...

Due to impurities-oftenly- present of Gallium arsenide (GaAs ) ,some Infra -Red light is emitted also,anyway..

As die operating temperature rises,output radiant power drops to ridiculously low levels...

Zinc oxide doped Gallium phosphide (ZnO-GaP ),has a very 'narrow ' ,steep emission curve also....
Like a needle...Trully monochromatic...
That tends to peak towards 700nm and further, when the semiconductor heats up ....

Not a good thing at all ..


One can easily identify a ZnO-GaP deep red chip ...
Just compare it with an ordinary eastern AlGaInP 625-635 nm red chip ...

The deep red,crappy ZnO-GaP die ,is larger in size (sometimes larger than a blue die of 45x45 mil size ) and somewhat darker in color ..
(with the leds switched off-....non operating ...!!! ) .
A larger die used,in order to achieve better thermal conductance(thus spectral /thermal stability) and output power ,hopelessly ...





Another tech used is from Epistar ...
The Aluminium gallium indium phosphide ( AlGaInP ) deep red chip ...
Much higher efficiency ,way-way better spectral and thermal stabilty and wider red band curve ,but more expensive to make ...
That chip makes a deep red led ,that can be pretty useful for mj's needs ...

Other ,more advanced techs are used from Western or other serious 'Eastern ' led/semiconductor chip manufacturers for the deep reds ...
Osram uses Aluminium gallium arsenide ( GaAlAs ) for its famous ,top-efficiency (48-49% ) hyper-reds ...
Extreme thermal/spectral stability,unbelievable efficiency and of higher cost ,than the previous mentioned semiconductor alloys ....



So...From the 'casual'* eastern led market ....Buy Only deep reds with Epistar chips...If you're lucky enough to find any ...

Or those with the more than great 640 nm led chip from Hamamatsu .( Only custom ordered ,I'm afraid ..Though in low price per led ...)

* Nichia ,Seoul Semiconductors,Samsung,Epistar,Hamamatsu,Mitsubishi and few others like Helio,Sharp,SemiLeds ,SiBDI, and Edison do not fall into the category "casual eastern " led manufacturers ......

And somewhere here lies an answer ..
Why some of those led leds seem to work ,while other remain crap...
Or anyway ,why is there a noticeable difference amongst eastern led light of all price ranges ...

One of the factors -and a rather crucial one- is what kind of dies where used for "deep red " leds .....
What it was used ...
The crappy ZnO-GaP or decent AlGaInP or eventhe superb GaAlAs of semiconductor alloys ?

Arrays with true 650-670 nm leds do perform way better in flowering than those with the "60's Deep red crystals " ....

(by the way ....
M0nsant0 company was the first who released those deep red dies, using(zinc oxide doped ) gallium arsenide phosphide (GaAsP) ...)

If you have a led array with crappy ZnO-GaP 'deep reds' ,it would be a splendid idea to replace them with some real /efficient broadband deep reds
or
at least with the humble but more stable/efficient AlGaInP 625-635 nm 'casual' red leds .

It would be a vast improvement .
Mark my words on this one ...

Upgrading old lights are fun. Prosource with 120w xml l2...lol. Heatsink was only good for 70 - 80w so it was eventually upgraded

Positivity said:

Upgrading old lights are fun. Prosource with 120w xml l2...lol. Heatsink was only good for 70 - 80w so it was eventually upgraded










View attachment 3025218View attachment 3025219View attachment 3025220View attachment 3025221View attachment 3025222

Click to expand...

Awesome tunning !
Great job....

Totally upgraded ...

Red led photo example guide ...

It was my first lesson that I could do better than what I had bought.

Positivity said:

It was my first lesson that I could do better than what I had bought.

Click to expand...

Exactly...The whole meaning and feeling ,behind this thread ...
Exactly...
Always we can do better from what we've received/bought/got/etc first place ...
All what is needed is will and a bit of ..know-how ....