Turning the compost pile

greasemonkeymann · Oct 9, 2015

Darth Vapour said:
everyone worries to much about layering or what ever just keep dumping your organic waste in that pile weather , rain , insects decompose it and get it ready have never worried about layering or what ever it happens all naturally and with time View attachment 3517916 View attachment 3517917 View attachment 3517920 View attachment 3517922

the thing with layering is that it vastly speeds up the process.
The thermophilic portin of the compost is what speeds it up, and that's why you layer the high nitrogen inputs in there.
not to mention it's a better way of ensuring that its well mixed.
But you are right, if you can start three piles, and dump em all in, you don't need to do much. just takes twice or three times as long

Darth Vapour · Oct 9, 2015

whats there to be done ??? you adding hot fertilizer into your organic compost pile ??? by constantly turning a organic compost pile i think a person is defeating the purpose of natural leaching microbes at different levels of the compost by turning them you can be also killing them just saying
in a compost pile there never really should be anything hot i mean i put egg shells coffee grinds , veggie scraps these items are low in the hot list
Are you adding chicken shit, Sheep shit ,, cause even cow manure is not extremely hot .25 - .15 - .25 and guarntee the most veggie scraps coffee grinds are not going to burn up nothing either so idunno is it a compost or recipe soil you made

Darth Vapour · Oct 9, 2015

years ago i planted a clone straight into a cow pie behind barn and forgot about it thnking it was just going to die anyways ( Burn up )
come fall time i walked around the corner ans was holy crap i had a massive tree ready for harvest hahaha totally forgot about it lmao

ShLUbY · Oct 9, 2015

Darth Vapour said:
whats there to be done ??? you adding hot fertilizer into your organic compost pile ??? by constantly turning a organic compost pile i think a person is defeating the purpose of natural leaching microbes at different levels of the compost by turning them you can be also killing them just saying
in a compost pile there never really should be anything hot i mean i put egg shells coffee grinds , veggie scraps these items are low in the hot list
Are you adding chicken shit, Sheep shit ,, cause even cow manure is not extremely hot .25 - .15 - .25 and guarntee the most veggie scraps coffee grinds are not going to burn up nothing either so idunno is it a compost or recipe soil you made

no poos at all. just alfalfa, kelp, canna leaves, grass clippings, neem seed meal, fishbone meal (possibly, may just hold off and put it in the soil mix), all the fall leaves will be my carbon which i'm going to run through the lawnmower, and maybe a couple other things i'm not sure yet exactly.

i have some "almost compost" i'm thinking about adding too from my tumbler.

I agree about mixing the hell out of it but just turning it a couple times i dont think is going to hurt the microlife.

Edit: just read about how biochar is really beneficial for the compost pile... i just so happened to have bought a bag of cowboy charcoal!

from the article:

The biochar produced with compost can be used again after rotting for charging other fresh biochars. Mature Composts thathave not been composted with biochar can therefore be used to activate biochar.

To activate, stack the biochar into Approximately a 1: 1 volume ratio with the mature compost and moisten Bothwell. If possible, mix biochar and compost with a compost turner. This process can be repeated several times until the ratio Reaches 1: 1. The mixture Should be prepared at least 2 weeks prior to its application into the soil and during That Time Should Always Be Kept moist and turned at least twice.

here is the link: http://www.ithaka-journal.net/wege-zu-terra-preta-aktivierung-von-biokohle?lang=en

thanks @DonPetro

greasemonkeymann · Oct 12, 2015

Darth Vapour said:
whats there to be done ??? you adding hot fertilizer into your organic compost pile ??? by constantly turning a organic compost pile i think a person is defeating the purpose of natural leaching microbes at different levels of the compost by turning them you can be also killing them just saying
in a compost pile there never really should be anything hot i mean i put egg shells coffee grinds , veggie scraps these items are low in the hot list
Are you adding chicken shit, Sheep shit ,, cause even cow manure is not extremely hot .25 - .15 - .25 and guarntee the most veggie scraps coffee grinds are not going to burn up nothing either so idunno is it a compost or recipe soil you made

you are misunderstanding me brother.
by "hot" i'm literally referring to the thermophilic portion of the compost.
The heat is made by the thermophilic bacteria.
For example, in your pile, the grass clippings are where the "heat" is coming from.
In my pile, it was from the fish meal and alfalfa.
You are thinking of the term "hot" in relation to the organic nutrient content, more specifically, nitrogen.
Ironically, they are separate terms, but in fact a nutrient with high nitrogen does in fact kick up the actual temperatures in a pile.
you follow me man?

greasemonkeymann · Oct 12, 2015

ShLUbY said:
no poos at all. just alfalfa, kelp, canna leaves, grass clippings, neem seed meal, fishbone meal (possibly, may just hold off and put it in the soil mix), all the fall leaves will be my carbon which i'm going to run through the lawnmower, and maybe a couple other things i'm not sure yet exactly.

i have some "almost compost" i'm thinking about adding too from my tumbler.

I agree about mixing the hell out of it but just turning it a couple times i dont think is going to hurt the microlife.

Edit: just read about how biochar is really beneficial for the compost pile... i just so happened to have bought a bag of cowboy charcoal!

from the article:

The biochar produced with compost can be used again after rotting for charging other fresh biochars. Mature Composts thathave not been composted with biochar can therefore be used to activate biochar.

To activate, stack the biochar into Approximately a 1: 1 volume ratio with the mature compost and moisten Bothwell. If possible, mix biochar and compost with a compost turner. This process can be repeated several times until the ratio Reaches 1: 1. The mixture Should be prepared at least 2 weeks prior to its application into the soil and during That Time Should Always Be Kept moist and turned at least twice.

here is the link: http://www.ithaka-journal.net/wege-zu-terra-preta-aktivierung-von-biokohle?lang=en

thanks @DonPetro

You can do the whole thing and NEVER turn it if you'd prefer.
Just takes longer.
All the turning does is ensure even moisture and decreases the compost time.
Oh, and def add your fish bone meal to the compost.
Add everything to your compost instead of your soil.

ShLUbY · Oct 12, 2015

greasemonkeymann said:
You can do the whole thing and NEVER turn it if you'd prefer.
Just takes longer.
All the turning does is ensure even moisture and decreases the compost time.
Oh, and def add your fish bone meal to the compost.
Add everything to your compost instead of your soil.

EXACTLY what i just did today to my existing compost tumbler that has some stuff that just hasn't been cookin for a while lol. i put in a couple handfulls of alfalfa meal, rock dusts, fishbone meal, kelp meal, about a a cuft of fresh grass clippings, and i'm thinking about just putting the oyster shell, neem seed meal, and crab shell in there too. ain't gonna hurt nothing! i put the rest of the leftover sunshine mix #4 i had laying around which was not much at all. hoping it will be ready for use in a couple weeks. of course i'll mix my soil with it and let that sit for a few weeks before use as well.

greasemonkeymann · Oct 13, 2015

ShLUbY said:
EXACTLY what i just did today to my existing compost tumbler that has some stuff that just hasn't been cookin for a while lol. i put in a couple handfulls of alfalfa meal, rock dusts, fishbone meal, kelp meal, about a a cuft of fresh grass clippings, and i'm thinking about just putting the oyster shell, neem seed meal, and crab shell in there too. ain't gonna hurt nothing! i put the rest of the leftover sunshine mix #4 i had laying around which was not much at all. hoping it will be ready for use in a couple weeks. of course i'll mix my soil with it and let that sit for a few weeks before use as well.

I always forget to mention, and it's worth mentioning, is I LOVE to use as much fresh comfrey in the pile as I can too.
Comfrey is some good stuff.
Also I recommend this type of rake.

ShLUbY · Oct 27, 2015

OK @greasemonkeymann here's the pile i just put together!

mulched all the leaves with the lawnmower and then picked them up with the bagger. did as you (or maybe it was someone else) suggested, Carbon Nitrogen Carbon layering. I put my amendments in the nitrogen (fresh grass cuttings) layers... crab meal, neem seed meal, kelp meal, alfalfa, rock dusts, you know.... the works! i have 2 layers total of C - N - C. it was the most i could do with the leaves that have fallen, and the lawn barely needed cut lol. but it was enough.

how long do you think i should let this sit before i turn it? i was thinking 5-7 days....

and how do you define "turning". thanks.

Darth Vapour · Oct 27, 2015

did add any top soil ???

ShLUbY · Oct 27, 2015

Darth Vapour said:
did add any top soil ???

i did not actually. I did water it in with a compost tea, and also included some almost finished compost because i wanted it to go a little further. the almost compost i put in with the nitrogen layers.

i was thinking about going to the woods, an old mature woods, and getting a cuft of soil from below the most mature trees, and going to a field, an OLD field in the river bottom that hasn't been farmed in a LONG time, and getting a cuft of soil from the field. I would consider this to be equal to or better than buying ancient forest for 10-12$ a bag or whatever it cost. i dont pay attention to prices anymore, they are negligible. However, i will save dollars when i see the benefit in doing so.

greasemonkeymann · Oct 27, 2015

ShLUbY said:
OK @greasemonkeymann here's the pile i just put together!

View attachment 3529909

mulched all the leaves with the lawnmower and then picked them up with the bagger. did as you (or maybe it was someone else) suggested, Carbon Nitrogen Carbon layering. I put my amendments in the nitrogen (fresh grass cuttings) layers... crab meal, neem seed meal, kelp meal, alfalfa, rock dusts, you know.... the works! i have 2 layers total of C - N - C. it was the most i could do with the leaves that have fallen, and the lawn barely needed cut lol. but it was enough.

how long do you think i should let this sit before i turn it? i was thinking 5-7 days....

and how do you define "turning". thanks.

nice fuckin job man, now if it's slightly moist you'll see steam pretty soon, if not already, keep it lightly tarped, and i'd turn it in 5-10 days, if it gets super steamy, you can turn it in 3 or 4
good job though man.
I use this tool here for the turning, and all that is, I essentially mixing it, not really too scientific.
keep gathering leaves though, always, always...
wish I did the last time, thought I was "good"
which I was, but not after the damn redwood punched it's raping-roots through the bottom of my pile... literally dissolved the compost, I shit you not...
nothing but gigantic fuckin redwood root tussles, like a crack-crazed clown with redwood roots as his hair.

greasemonkeymann · Oct 27, 2015

ShLUbY said:
i did not actually. I did water it in with a compost tea, and also included some almost finished compost because i wanted it to go a little further. the almost compost i put in with the nitrogen layers.

i was thinking about going to the woods, an old mature woods, and getting a cuft of soil from below the most mature trees, and going to a field, an OLD field in the river bottom that hasn't been farmed in a LONG time, and getting a cuft of soil from the field. I would consider this to be equal to or better than buying ancient forest for 10-12$ a bag or whatever it cost. i dont pay attention to prices anymore, they are negligible. However, i will save dollars when i see the benefit in doing so.

nah, don't bother with that man.
if you compost it, it'll be LOADED with microbial life man.
Besides if I understand it correctly the type of microbial the plant prefers, so if you get the humus under a tree for example,i imagine the life to be more fungal, due to the ammonia preference of their nitrogen uptake.
whereas annual, veggies, fruits and such prefer their nitrogen in a nitrate form, which would mean more of a bacterial microbial life in the soil.
one of the reasons I like using cannabis leaves for a source of leaves (as well as grass clippings), as I imagine mother nature would have tweaked it to where the plant needs those to fall, break down, and decompost to recreate the ideal type of microbial life present in the soil.
right?
That's how the "cycle" works correct?
just like how apples "need" those decaying rotting apples to re-supply itself with nutrition, namely phosphorus...
Isn't that how it all works?
I'm not being an ass, i'm really asking, that's how I understand it to work anyways.
whew.. tangent... sorry guys.

Darth Vapour · Oct 27, 2015

Although leafs have 0 nutrients in it pretty much it will be good or the aeration part of soil

and building the carbon rich soil

this is the start of my winter compost bin but i add soil to it as well veggie scraps and so on during winter months in spring i will take out 50 percent of it and add 50 percent of top soil mixing it all up this is the start of my out door season i do not add any amendments at all just greens and browns
Here she is at work

today is -6 out plants are still standing lol

ShLUbY · Oct 27, 2015

greasemonkeymann said:
nice fuckin job man, now if it's slightly moist you'll see steam pretty soon, if not already, keep it lightly tarped, and i'd turn it in 5-10 days, if it gets super steamy, you can turn it in 3 or 4
good job though man.
I use this tool here for the turning, and all that is, I essentially mixing it, not really too scientific.
keep gathering leaves though, always, always...
wish I did the last time, thought I was "good"
which I was, but not after the damn redwood punched it's raping-roots through the bottom of my pile... literally dissolved the compost, I shit you not...
nothing but gigantic fuckin redwood root tussles, like a crack-crazed clown with redwood roots as his hair.

cool, thanks. sucks about the redwoods devouring your compost!

I will keep saving leaves; I'm going to mulch them and just go straight leaf mold in a big pile. if i need to add more carbon source to the compost i'll just pull from the leaf mold pile!

out of curiosity, how will i know if the compost needs more leaves?

and i right in thinking i'll need more N sources if there are lots of leaves left that aren't broken down, and i'm not feeling anymore heat?

greasemonkeymann · Oct 27, 2015

ShLUbY said:
cool, thanks. sucks about the redwoods devouring your compost!

I will keep saving leaves; I'm going to mulch them and just go straight leaf mold in a big pile. if i need to add more carbon source to the compost i'll just pull from the leaf mold pile!

out of curiosity, how will i know if the compost needs more leaves?

and i right in thinking i'll need more N sources if there are lots of leaves left that aren't broken down, and i'm not feeling anymore heat?

no, the thermo portion of the compost isn't perpetual, its just a stage, normally it will cool down as that organic matter is being broken down, specifically it's the "greens" that increase your temps, but that's only probably about maybe 15-20 days or so, the rest is 'cooler"
if you made the pile with the right amendments and portions you wont need to add more leaves, I only mean gather leaves to make the NEXT pile, I highly recommend getting it as a two stage type of thing.
and to answer that question though, you can NEVER have too many leaves in your mix, as long as they are composted, it's something you can absolutely use, and it'll work well too.
In fact the way to make a pure leaf mold is to cold compost it, with no additives at all, takes like 2 yrs.
But after I made my compost the way you did, I sure as hell ain't gonna change a thing. just wait man.

ShLUbY · Oct 27, 2015

greasemonkeymann said:
nah, don't bother with that man.
if you compost it, it'll be LOADED with microbial life man.
Besides if I understand it correctly the type of microbial the plant prefers, so if you get the humus under a tree for example,i imagine the life to be more fungal, due to the ammonia preference of their nitrogen uptake.
whereas annual, veggies, fruits and such prefer their nitrogen in a nitrate form, which would mean more of a bacterial microbial life in the soil.
one of the reasons I like using cannabis leaves for a source of leaves (as well as grass clippings), as I imagine mother nature would have tweaked it to where the plant needs those to fall, break down, and decompost to recreate the ideal type of microbial life present in the soil.
right?
That's how the "cycle" works correct?
just like how apples "need" those decaying rotting apples to re-supply itself with nutrition, namely phosphorus...
Isn't that how it all works?
I'm not being an ass, i'm really asking, that's how I understand it to work anyways.
whew.. tangent... sorry guys.

well yes and no, i mean it depends on your perception of the "cycle" because there are so many cycles within one generalized cycle lol.

things like fruits in plants are needed to reproduce, or make seed. the actual flesh part of the fruit (the mesocarp) is just a storage tank around the seeds. like for apples instance, the plant knows the fruit is meant to be eaten and stores massive amounts of sugar in the fruit flesh, that is its niche in spreading seed. so the tree needs the apples to be eaten and seed spread, more than it needs them to decompose on the ground. also with the instance of deciduous plants dropping the leaves, it's more of a metabolic process accompanied with photoperiod triggers. the plant senses that the end of season is coming by not only photoperiod and temperatures, but also when water becomes more scarce. xylem vessel elements adjust their size according to the availability of water, this is how growth rings form. when you see the rings, you are seeing the rings of xylem tissue getting larger and smaller with the availability of water. vessel elements are smaller when there is less water available (in the fall/winter) to keep up the turgor pressure and keep transpiration running. when the plant senses that it is just better to go dormant that keep fighting the lack of water, it shuts down a lot of metabolic processes, starts breaking things down, storing sugar in the roots, making shit tons of abscisic acid to heal abscission zones, and making hormones to prepare for dormancy.

these are the cycles within a cycle lol. and just the tip of the iceberg. like i said, depends on your perception of the cycle. sorry bout the long rant, but it helped me refresh on some of my botany stuff. i miss going to school, can't wait to get started again next year. love learning.

greasemonkeymann · Oct 27, 2015

ShLUbY said:
well yes and no, i mean it depends on your perception of the "cycle" because there are so many cycles within one generalized cycle lol.

things like fruits in plants are needed to reproduce, or make seed. the actual flesh part of the fruit (the mesocarp) is just a storage tank around the seeds. like for apples instance, the plant knows the fruit is meant to be eaten and stores massive amounts of sugar in the fruit flesh, that is its niche in spreading seed. so the tree needs the apples to be eaten and seed spread, more than it needs them to decompose on the ground. also with the instance of deciduous plants dropping the leaves, it's more of a metabolic process accompanied with photoperiod triggers. the plant senses that the end of season is coming by not only photoperiod and temperatures, but also when water becomes more scarce. xylem vessel elements adjust their size according to the availability of water, this is how growth rings form. when you see the rings, you are seeing the rings of xylem tissue getting larger and smaller with the availability of water. vessel elements are smaller when there is less water available (in the fall/winter) to keep up the turgor pressure and keep transpiration running. when the plant senses that it is just better to go dormant that keep fighting the lack of water, it shuts down a lot of metabolic processes, starts breaking things down, storing sugar in the roots, making shit tons of abscisic acid to heal abscission zones, and making hormones to prepare for dormancy.

these are the cycles within a cycle lol. and just the tip of the iceberg. like i said, depends on your perception of the cycle. sorry bout the long rant, but it helped me refresh on some of my botany stuff. i miss going to school, can't wait to get started again next year. love learning.

of course, totally I understand that, my point was that the types if BIM's that you want aren't typically sourced from trees
that's my point, the rest was a byproduct of coffee.

My point was that the "cycle" is completed when those leaves are back and composted back into the soil.
The forest is green as a mofo and nobody is feeding anything to anything.
other than the aforementioned "cycle"
that's what I find interesting

ShLUbY · Oct 27, 2015

greasemonkeymann said:
of course, totally I understand that, my point was that the types if BIM's that you want aren't typically sourced from trees
that's my point, the rest was a byproduct of coffee.

My point was that the "cycle" is completed when those leaves are back and composted back into the soil.
The forest is green as a mofo and nobody is feeding anything to anything.
other than the aforementioned "cycle"
that's what I find interesting

yup, matter is neither created nor destroyed. just recycled in different forms over and over. the grand scale of it all is what is really impressive.

greasemonkeymann said:
no, the thermo portion of the compost isn't perpetual, its just a stage, normally it will cool down as that organic matter is being broken down, specifically it's the "greens" that increase your temps, but that's only probably about maybe 15-20 days or so, the rest is 'cooler"
if you made the pile with the right amendments and portions you wont need to add more leaves, I only mean gather leaves to make the NEXT pile, I highly recommend getting it as a two stage type of thing.
and to answer that question though, you can NEVER have too many leaves in your mix, as long as they are composted, it's something you can absolutely use, and it'll work well too.
In fact the way to make a pure leaf mold is to cold compost it, with no additives at all, takes like 2 yrs.
But after I made my compost the way you did, I sure as hell ain't gonna change a thing. just wait man.

thank you for this. i'm afraid the "cooler" portions of the compost are going to take forever with winter approaching. i suppose i could bring the mix inside if it gets too cold and just keep it on a tarp yeah?

greasemonkeymann · Oct 27, 2015

ShLUbY said:
yup, matter is neither created nor destroyed. just recycled in different forms over and over. the grand scale of it all is what is really impressive.

thank you for this. i'm afraid the "cooler" portions of the compost are going to take forever with winter approaching. i suppose i could bring the mix inside if it gets too cold and just keep it on a tarp yeah?

yea, or you could periodically add a nitrogen to "warm" it up a lil.
Anything green will warm it up, I've used fresh alfalfa (from a feed store), grass, even kelp meal.
I wouldn't worry about it getting too cold, it'll still break down with all those nutrients in it, it'll stay a bit warm for a while.
just keep it slightly damp, and covered loosely.
You'll be all good man, it'll happen faster than you think.
Oh, if you do add fresh alfalfa, either shred or de-stem it first.
the stems break down slowly
another great thing to add (albeit a lil stinky) is rabbit hutch bedding.
the urine and poo soaked hay is actually a damn good thin for a compost pile...
but, like I said... dirty job...

Turning the compost pile

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