ULMResearch
Active Member
Before I begin my journal, I just want to see if what I think was lack of food caused my problems. This entry will be used for my journal as well but I figured this would be a good place to start off. Here's the story:
I had some midgrade bagseeds in my paraph. tin just rolling around in a bag for like 6 months. On a lark I was like "let's put 'em in a wet paper towel and see what happens". Well about 6 of the 20 (and most of those 14 were obviously under or over mature to germ anyway) actually popped. A 7th popped later I think but it didn't do anything so I think a week of wet towel just cause the guts to swell up and mimic germination. Anyway... I had forgotten about them for a day or two and when I checked the roots of the 6 were about 1.5" long in the paper towel! I had nothing to do with them at the time because I wasn't even prepared for germination.
So I grabbed a rubbermaid box, about 12"X18"X10". Maybe a 5 gallon rectangle? I filled it with some 3 year old potting soil that had been used for a flower bed and then dumped in the yard. Pretty much inert stuff but I figured whatever, seedlings need nothing for a while anyway. Planted them and they became seedlings but after the first spear leaves popped they sort of stopped. Part of this was my fault. I never fed, didn't think they would need it. I watered (probably too much since this dirt had very little perlite in it and no drain holes in the bucket.)
I started them under a 15w 18" kitchen tube for the first few days. Then I got the bright idea of "let's do a guerilla grow outdoors!" So I took my 4 day old seedlings outside every morning and left them there most of the day. This is the south. Heat Indexes were triple digits and real temps were 99+ as well. Nevertheless, with inert soil, overwaterring and 100 degrees they lived. I could even see the little tops follow the arc of the sun all day. At night I brought them in and put them under the CFL (which I upgraded to 2x 23w 6500k spirals) Growth, however, was slow.
After a few days of that I went to wal mart, got some solo cups, 2 more 23w 6.5k bulbs and a bag of MG organic potting mix (I know I know). I got a bag of perlite too and made a 50/50 mix and transplanted into solo cups. I didn't just transplant, I took them up by the bare roots and put them in new soil. A bad idea. Bare roots from no nutes to hot organics shocked them a bit. They didn't get too bad though and in fact it was long (day or 2) before they adapted and new growth began. Everything was fine (other than me maybe over watering still - but I had hige drain holes and 50% perlite. Air/moisture wasn't an issue). At this time I have never checked ph or my tapwater or anything.
Plants began to grow, they got a couple of nodes and got a few inches tall quickly then growth slowed. I saw signs of damage, yellowing leaves at the bottom and some with a lot of brown/rust specks that in some cases grew large. I had never fed them and the soil/perlite mix I am using is like like .11 .7 .8% NPK by volume. No idea how this relates to feed that are more like 10% of each etc. The ratio was good though, so I figured it would be fine. I water with tapwater only and let them do there thing until the damage began.
So I went to the store and got some 10" 2.5gal or so pots and transplanted. I was forced to use the same medium (50/50 mg organic potting soil/mg perlite with that added food crap). I also had been ordering my hydro supplies for next grow (this is my test run on the room before I use quality seed). So at the bottom of each put I put a 1-2 ball layer of hydroton clay. Filled the pots with dirt, dug a solo cup sized hole in it, put another 1-2 ball layer of hydroton at the bottom so the roots would have strong airy moist things to first reach since they were rootbound in the cups.
Seems like a great idea to me and seems to be working. Lots of drainage with 50/50 soil/perlite, a bottom of hydroton and a middle layer of hydroton. It holds moisture for days but it isn't dripping wet. Of course this is probably why I still have one plant showing overwatering symptoms and one more just coming out of it. Watering too often! I've learned by now, don't worry! My last watering was with 1/4 strength Lucas Formula using GH micro/bloom. Has every micronutrient I need and NPK just right. It was meant as a temporary fix since the plants were just coming out of rootbound containers that they had obviously eaten all of the food in.
So anyway here is the question. The lower leaves on a plant or two (the first 3 prongs) turned yellow and had brown/rust spots all over them. I even saw one or two on another plant. I watered with some epsom salts (tsp in a gallon) and made a foliar spray at half that. Watered with it and sprayed a few times over a couple of days and all the upper leaves turned so green! I knew the yellow damaged ones wouldn't really ever recover but I swear between the spraying and the feeding that they were turning back green. The upper leaves which had been yellowing between veins slightly (more like lime green vs. dark green veins) just greened up over the course of half a day to a day. The damage seemed to halt and reverse like I said. I went ahead and cut the leaves off anyway so the plant would stop wasting energy.
Finally the questions: were my plants just starving or were they burning in the mg soil?
After my GH feeding I noticed a tiny bit of nute burn, likely due to the direct contact over the roots but it wasn't prolonged and seems to have stopped entirely. I probably won't feed them with anything more than 1/4 str Lucas Formula every other watering for now. I don't think I need a flush. Runoff is fairly clear and tests ok for PH, under 7 but not under 6 according to the drops (I know.. can't afford a digi this week).
Oh, and they are now under a 400w MH in a cooltube. Ambient temps are almost always 80-82, with swings from 77-86 depending on the conditions. (100+ outside, 80 inside despite tons of AC). The outer room and inner room are only 5-9 degrees different, so it's definitely not out of hand. They will never see 90 degrees. Radiant temps if I put the sensor at plant top level in the light can be close to 90, but that doesn't account for the fan. Plant leaves at the top are cool to the touch, no discomfort under the light. I can grab the tube 1/2" from the bulb and hold it without burning. I have a 240CFM inline fan (effectively 160-200cfm due to semi-passive intake - my plant "shaking in a slight breeze" fan sends a little pressure into the tube also. Closet passive intake is about 2x the exhaust fan. 16"x8" intake and 6" round exhaust. I get a slight negative pressure so I'm pleased with that.
Next question! Plants grew so well in the new medium and after feeding and I was able to keep the light 6-9" from the tops with no heat stress. Problem is the plants stopped growing up. I know this can be genetics and clearly I have 2 dark green fat leaved indicas, but I have 4 which show more sativa like leaves. They didn't stop growing though, they just decided to put on preflowers and now every leaf node is growing a branch. The plants are only 6-9" tall! Some of them have 3" branches already. Some may call this a great thing. Is it? I want compact plants but I don't want to hurt them. I backed the lights off some, up to 12"-15".
What's the story with that? The new growth is lush, thick and green with no signs of the nute burn I saw the first day of feeding. They are also ~ a month old. I find it a miracle that they all survived what they began life as but they have all recovered wonderfully (i think).
I water with ~7.0ph water. run off is slightly lower. My only issue is the TDS of my (filtered hah!) tapwater is 350-400. PH is over 7. Adding a few nutes or pH DOWN fixes it right up (or down lol.. to 6.5ish) though.
Going to add pics in a bit, so please bear with me. I apologize for the length. This is going to be copied into my journal and I will reduce this later.
I had some midgrade bagseeds in my paraph. tin just rolling around in a bag for like 6 months. On a lark I was like "let's put 'em in a wet paper towel and see what happens". Well about 6 of the 20 (and most of those 14 were obviously under or over mature to germ anyway) actually popped. A 7th popped later I think but it didn't do anything so I think a week of wet towel just cause the guts to swell up and mimic germination. Anyway... I had forgotten about them for a day or two and when I checked the roots of the 6 were about 1.5" long in the paper towel! I had nothing to do with them at the time because I wasn't even prepared for germination.
So I grabbed a rubbermaid box, about 12"X18"X10". Maybe a 5 gallon rectangle? I filled it with some 3 year old potting soil that had been used for a flower bed and then dumped in the yard. Pretty much inert stuff but I figured whatever, seedlings need nothing for a while anyway. Planted them and they became seedlings but after the first spear leaves popped they sort of stopped. Part of this was my fault. I never fed, didn't think they would need it. I watered (probably too much since this dirt had very little perlite in it and no drain holes in the bucket.)
I started them under a 15w 18" kitchen tube for the first few days. Then I got the bright idea of "let's do a guerilla grow outdoors!" So I took my 4 day old seedlings outside every morning and left them there most of the day. This is the south. Heat Indexes were triple digits and real temps were 99+ as well. Nevertheless, with inert soil, overwaterring and 100 degrees they lived. I could even see the little tops follow the arc of the sun all day. At night I brought them in and put them under the CFL (which I upgraded to 2x 23w 6500k spirals) Growth, however, was slow.
After a few days of that I went to wal mart, got some solo cups, 2 more 23w 6.5k bulbs and a bag of MG organic potting mix (I know I know). I got a bag of perlite too and made a 50/50 mix and transplanted into solo cups. I didn't just transplant, I took them up by the bare roots and put them in new soil. A bad idea. Bare roots from no nutes to hot organics shocked them a bit. They didn't get too bad though and in fact it was long (day or 2) before they adapted and new growth began. Everything was fine (other than me maybe over watering still - but I had hige drain holes and 50% perlite. Air/moisture wasn't an issue). At this time I have never checked ph or my tapwater or anything.
Plants began to grow, they got a couple of nodes and got a few inches tall quickly then growth slowed. I saw signs of damage, yellowing leaves at the bottom and some with a lot of brown/rust specks that in some cases grew large. I had never fed them and the soil/perlite mix I am using is like like .11 .7 .8% NPK by volume. No idea how this relates to feed that are more like 10% of each etc. The ratio was good though, so I figured it would be fine. I water with tapwater only and let them do there thing until the damage began.
So I went to the store and got some 10" 2.5gal or so pots and transplanted. I was forced to use the same medium (50/50 mg organic potting soil/mg perlite with that added food crap). I also had been ordering my hydro supplies for next grow (this is my test run on the room before I use quality seed). So at the bottom of each put I put a 1-2 ball layer of hydroton clay. Filled the pots with dirt, dug a solo cup sized hole in it, put another 1-2 ball layer of hydroton at the bottom so the roots would have strong airy moist things to first reach since they were rootbound in the cups.
Seems like a great idea to me and seems to be working. Lots of drainage with 50/50 soil/perlite, a bottom of hydroton and a middle layer of hydroton. It holds moisture for days but it isn't dripping wet. Of course this is probably why I still have one plant showing overwatering symptoms and one more just coming out of it. Watering too often! I've learned by now, don't worry! My last watering was with 1/4 strength Lucas Formula using GH micro/bloom. Has every micronutrient I need and NPK just right. It was meant as a temporary fix since the plants were just coming out of rootbound containers that they had obviously eaten all of the food in.
So anyway here is the question. The lower leaves on a plant or two (the first 3 prongs) turned yellow and had brown/rust spots all over them. I even saw one or two on another plant. I watered with some epsom salts (tsp in a gallon) and made a foliar spray at half that. Watered with it and sprayed a few times over a couple of days and all the upper leaves turned so green! I knew the yellow damaged ones wouldn't really ever recover but I swear between the spraying and the feeding that they were turning back green. The upper leaves which had been yellowing between veins slightly (more like lime green vs. dark green veins) just greened up over the course of half a day to a day. The damage seemed to halt and reverse like I said. I went ahead and cut the leaves off anyway so the plant would stop wasting energy.
Finally the questions: were my plants just starving or were they burning in the mg soil?
After my GH feeding I noticed a tiny bit of nute burn, likely due to the direct contact over the roots but it wasn't prolonged and seems to have stopped entirely. I probably won't feed them with anything more than 1/4 str Lucas Formula every other watering for now. I don't think I need a flush. Runoff is fairly clear and tests ok for PH, under 7 but not under 6 according to the drops (I know.. can't afford a digi this week).
Oh, and they are now under a 400w MH in a cooltube. Ambient temps are almost always 80-82, with swings from 77-86 depending on the conditions. (100+ outside, 80 inside despite tons of AC). The outer room and inner room are only 5-9 degrees different, so it's definitely not out of hand. They will never see 90 degrees. Radiant temps if I put the sensor at plant top level in the light can be close to 90, but that doesn't account for the fan. Plant leaves at the top are cool to the touch, no discomfort under the light. I can grab the tube 1/2" from the bulb and hold it without burning. I have a 240CFM inline fan (effectively 160-200cfm due to semi-passive intake - my plant "shaking in a slight breeze" fan sends a little pressure into the tube also. Closet passive intake is about 2x the exhaust fan. 16"x8" intake and 6" round exhaust. I get a slight negative pressure so I'm pleased with that.
Next question! Plants grew so well in the new medium and after feeding and I was able to keep the light 6-9" from the tops with no heat stress. Problem is the plants stopped growing up. I know this can be genetics and clearly I have 2 dark green fat leaved indicas, but I have 4 which show more sativa like leaves. They didn't stop growing though, they just decided to put on preflowers and now every leaf node is growing a branch. The plants are only 6-9" tall! Some of them have 3" branches already. Some may call this a great thing. Is it? I want compact plants but I don't want to hurt them. I backed the lights off some, up to 12"-15".
What's the story with that? The new growth is lush, thick and green with no signs of the nute burn I saw the first day of feeding. They are also ~ a month old. I find it a miracle that they all survived what they began life as but they have all recovered wonderfully (i think).
I water with ~7.0ph water. run off is slightly lower. My only issue is the TDS of my (filtered hah!) tapwater is 350-400. PH is over 7. Adding a few nutes or pH DOWN fixes it right up (or down lol.. to 6.5ish) though.
Going to add pics in a bit, so please bear with me. I apologize for the length. This is going to be copied into my journal and I will reduce this later.
