USA - Probably the most ****ed up country on earth

Someacdude said:

Your right militarily but our gov still does some dirty behind the scenes stuff.

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And your point? Oh. Perhaps it is this?

War is Hell.

And the more at stake there is, doesn't make more hell, it just makes it more hellish.

Doer said:

Do you really think there exists a such a thing as your "freedom?' Hell no. You try to describe it and you can't get out 2 paragrahs before the fail is obvious.

You don't think it through. Dream on. Reality passes by almost everyone, un-noticed.

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O h we control nothing in our lives , anything else is a fantasy for younger people who think they still know what they are doing.

Governmentally we control even less, society as a whole has turned into the movie idiocracy , even those who actually see are not listened to or worse are considered kooks.

They are pissed at Snowden about his leak, their pissed because he knows wayyyyyy to much, hes going to have an accident or ( put up a fight) and go by by .

Someacdude said:

Oh we control nothing in our lives , anything else is a fantasy for younger people who think they still know what they are doing.

Governmentally we control even less, society as a whole has turned into the movie idiocracy , even those who actually see are not listened to or worse are considered kooks.

They are pissed at Snowden about his leak, their pissed because he knows wayyyyyy to much, hes going to have an accident or ( put up a fight) and go by by .

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Dude you missed something. (you are very good a discussion, I might add)

I beg to differ. We can only control our own lives. I know I do.

Doer said:

I have to say, that is so wrong. WW1, WW2, The Marshal Plan came after, but pretty helpful. We killed and died for France. It is in the accords from 1812. It is why they don't need NATO.

China, we flew the hump when no one else could.

Daylight bombing when no one else could.

Saved Taiwan from China.

Saved Japan from Korea when no one else could. The list is endless. And only the losers complain.
Where does that put you?

WE keep the peace, protect the sea lanes and not even suffer or regard, at all, the opinions of fools.

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When you see people thru the lense of a nation state and a "my team" mentality you miss much.
Of course the USA is an Empire. Of course the USA is hypocritical....who the fuck do you think jailed it's own people in concentration camps during WW II? Who jailed dissenters during nearly every war ? It started during the Whiskey Rebellion with George Washington. His predecessor, John Adams put in the alien sedition act...Even King Abraham Lincoln did that. I could go on and on...but I think I've made my point.

WE keep the peace? That's funny considering WE (the USA) have the most people in jail of any country. Now the USA wants to capture Snowden for a show trial to prevent him from revealing just how much spying the USA does on it's own serfs. Hello?

Saved Japan from Korea? Wasn't Japan the same place the USA fried alive hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians in two nuclear explosions less than 10 years before "saving" them from the Koreans?

Don't choke on your flag...spit it out and defend LIBERTY, not somebody or something beating a drum and telling you they are your leaders...being "Patriotic" isn't licking boots and supporting whatever your team "leaders" tell you to, it's understanding what you're told and what is can be and often is, two different things. Now go unpledge your blind allegiance to "your team" or at least admit your team is full of shit and says one thing, while doing another. Oh yeah fuck the NSA.

Rob Roy said:

When you see people thru the lense of a nation state and a "my team" mentality you miss much.
Of course the USA is an Empire. Of course the USA is hypocritical....who the fuck do you think jailed it's own people in concentration camps during WW II? Who jailed dissenters during nearly every war ? It started during the Whiskey Rebellion with George Washington. His predecessor, John Adams put in the alien sedition act...Even King Abraham Lincoln did that. I could go on and on...but I think I've made my point.

WE keep the peace? That's funny considering WE (the USA) have the most people in jail of any country. Now the USA wants to capture Snowden for a show trial to prevent him from revealing just how much spying the USA does on it's own serfs. Hello?

Saved Japan from Korea? Wasn't Japan the same place the USA fried alive hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians in two nuclear explosions less than 10 years before "saving" them from the Koreans?

Don't choke on your flag...spit it out and defend LIBERTY, not somebody or something beating a drum and telling you they are your leaders...being "Patriotic" isn't licking boots and supporting whatever your team "leaders" tell you to, it's understanding what you're told and what is can be and often is, two different things. Now go unpledge your blind allegiance to "your team" or at least admit your team is full of shit and says one thing, while doing another. Oh yeah fuck the NSA.

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You say it like it is a bad thing. Of course. I stipulate. ....as the thread says.

You are a stand alone anarchist, or something. You suck on hierarchy at the same time you reject it.

There in no I in alone.

Doer said:

And your point? Oh. Perhaps it is this?

War is Hell.

And the more at stake there is, doesn't make more hell, it just makes it more hellish.

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Alright look at it this way.
What has our government done to its citizens as far as the loss of our liberty , the non stop attack on our right to bear arms etc etc etc and ask yourself, if they do this to their citizens , people of other countries count even less. All governments feel the same way, the only problem has been economically we have been superior, until recently in our 200 plus years of existence .

Yes we helped those who truly needed it and saved countless human lives, improved the lot of many saved many other countries and stopped abuses world wide but.
Look at what we did in other places too, im not talking about the middle east thats a whole other thread, but there is a reason so many hate us, its not right, since as a whole we are not responsible for what our leader do since we have so little say in who is actually elected.

If we concentrated more on taking care of each other instead of interferring with other affairs.

We havent really been needed since Vietnam and instead of helping ,,well thats another really sad story about destroying a generation of americans for well, for nothing , the domino theory did happen , but the media destroyed what could have been, and my point it,,,,,,,,,,,,,we may know just a little bit more than they want us to know , but its not enough to make us dangerous.

And had you been alive, what would you say to the USA allowing the systematic destruction of Japan my Korea and Russia. Instead we re-built it into a trading partner. That is something you won't acknowledge. A main fact. You want the Slavs to kill them all?

And those west coast camps were a blessing for them and their protection from the MOB is US serfs.
Main fact.

It is just to dumb to discuss with you. You ignore the main facts to have your little fantasy. Been there. Done that.

The main facts kill this stupid view point but you have to understand them. Try again in 10 years? That's what I did.
It is obviously beyond you right now.

Someacdude said:

Alright look at it this way.
What has our government done to its citizens as far as the loss of our liberty , the non stop attack on our right to bear arms etc etc etc and ask yourself, if they do this to their citizens , people of other countries count even less. All governments feel the same way, the only problem has been economically we have been superior, until recently in our 200 plus years of existence .

Yes we helped those who truly needed it and saved countless human lives, improved the lot of many saved many other countries and stopped abuses world wide but.
Look at what we did in other places too, im not talking about the middle east thats a whole other thread, but there is a reason so many hate us, its not right, since as a whole we are not responsible for what our leader do since we have so little say in who is actually elected.

If we concentrated more on taking care of each other instead of interferring with other affairs.

We havent really been needed since Vietnam and instead of helping ,,well thats another really sad story about destroying a generation of americans for well, for nothing , the domino theory did happen , but the media destroyed what could have been, and my point it,,,,,,,,,,,,,we may know just a little bit more than they want us to know , but its not enough to make us dangerous.

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It is boring. Re-read my posts. No govt in WE the People. It is us. <yawn>

You too need more US Civics.

Rob Roy said:

When you see people thru the lense of a nation state and a "my team" mentality you miss much.
Of course the USA is an Empire. Of course the USA is hypocritical....who the fuck do you think jailed it's own people in concentration camps during WW II? Who jailed dissenters during nearly every war ? It started during the Whiskey Rebellion with George Washington. His predecessor, John Adams put in the alien sedition act...Even King Abraham Lincoln did that. I could go on and on...but I think I've made my point.

WE keep the peace? That's funny considering WE (the USA) have the most people in jail of any country. Now the USA wants to capture Snowden for a show trial to prevent him from revealing just how much spying the USA does on it's own serfs. Hello?

Saved Japan from Korea? Wasn't Japan the same place the USA fried alive hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians in two nuclear explosions less than 10 years before "saving" them from the Koreans?

Don't choke on your flag...spit it out and defend LIBERTY, not somebody or something beating a drum and telling you they are your leaders...being "Patriotic" isn't licking boots and supporting whatever your team "leaders" tell you to, it's understanding what you're told and what is can be and often is, two different things. Now go unpledge your blind allegiance to "your team" or at least admit your team is full of shit and says one thing, while doing another. Oh yeah fuck the NSA.

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Rob those two bombs where a gift.
Those people where killing themselves by the thousands and had we invaded their mainland they would have commited even more suicides at more loss of american lives.
Militant bushido dictated no less, think about it, they kept their emperor ???? As a condition of the peace accords.

That nation was in trouble since after the rusian japanese war.
The japanese treated their pow,s as warriors , with honor.
When the japanese got their pow's back they had been treated barbarically so, the japanese decided thats what the rest of the world was like, so they adopted militant bushido.

The japanese where legendary for human rights violations , poor China can attest to that, they made Hitler blush .

Doer said:

It is boring. Re-read my posts. No govt in WE the People. It is us. <yawn>

You too need more US Civics.

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Ok , if your not smoking ,smoke,if you are smoking STOP,

Doer said:

You say it like it is a bad thing. Of course. I stipulate. ....as the thread says.

You are a stand alone anarchist, or something. You suck on hierarchy at the same time you reject it.

There in no I in alone.

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there is no "we" in slave.

Nope, not a stand alone anarchist. Just a person that has a problem with attempts to use rationalizations as justifiable reasoning. Just a person that tries hard to live my core philosophy rather than shifting it around to justify immoral acts.

No individual snowflake ever thinks it is responsible for the avalanche. (Not an original...I just can't remember who to credit)

Speaking of flakes....sometimes I have a hard time unraveling what you are saying, but I sense you're an alright guy. PEACE.

Rob Roy said:

there is no "we" in slave.

Nope, not a stand alone anarchist. Just a person that has a problem with attempts to use rationalizations as justifiable reasoning. Just a person that tries hard to live my core philosophy rather than shifting it around to justify immoral acts.

No individual snowflake ever thinks it is responsible for the avalanche. (Not an original...I just can't remember who to credit)

Speaking of flakes....sometimes I have a hard time unraveling what you are saying, but I sense you're an alright guy. PEACE.

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It is what is it, my friend. Please address that. No one is trying to justify, OK?

See those are straw dogs. Stand them up and take the piss. You wish we were trying to justify. My god, man. As I said.
Beyond you.

The anti-constituional forces are attempting to foil right and left with this crap of apology and justification.

It is bullshit, the very idea that we even want to understand the world's scorn. It is an attempt to force weakness and shame into our warrior culture. You fall for that. We don't.

You are just wiggling on the baited hook, to me. The catch becomes more bait.

Neither of you guys can address reality, seems to me. It is a re-gurged theory.

We have all freedom we can have at the moment and I think you just need to mind your store and let the elected of us, deal with it.

You think this is so easy, that it must be some kind of conspiracy to keep it from solving itself. That is the joke.

Just WE chickens trying to protect the roost.

tokeprep said:

I don't think belligerents have any obligation to take on additional risks themselves in order to best minimize collateral damage in combat operations

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Not so, civilian casualty mitigation is a priority for the Afghan effort and MUST go hand in hand with COIN if either are to succeed.

tokeprep said:

So not the US government. That was my point. Russian arms manufacturers supply most of the weapons for al Qaeda, of course. Surely you realize the fruits of that 80s effort has dissipated to very little now, decades later.

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No, the Maktab al-Khidamat (MAK) is still alive and well as a sleeper/silent org within AQ. All their senior leadership still alive, trace their roots back to MAK or the muslim brotherhood.

The fruits of supplying AQ or salafi jihadists/sunni takfirs is ongoing in Syria, some of the same networks used during the '80s have re-surfaced or been resurrected to take on Al-Assad. Much like the US used Iran in 2001 to make contact with the northern alliance to resurrect the relationships from the '80s.

Someacdude said:

Rob those two bombs where a gift.
Those people where killing themselves by the thousands and had we invaded their mainland they would have commited even more suicides at more loss of american lives.
Militant bushido dictated no less, think about it, they kept their emperor ???? As a condition of the peace accords.

That nation was in trouble since after the rusian japanese war.
The japanese treated their pow,s as warriors , with honor.
When the japanese got their pow's back they had been treated barbarically so, the japanese decided thats what the rest of the world was like, so they adopted militant bushido.

The japanese where legendary for human rights violations , poor China can attest to that, they made Hitler blush .

Click to expand...

Not quite. The Japanese diplomats tried hard to surrender....they only wanted to keep their Emperor as a figurehead. Truman wanted to show off his new toy to scare the Russians and demanded an "unconditional surrender", knowing he wouldn't get one. He had his excuse to use the bomb....and he did...killing hundreds of thousands of women, children and old men.

Whether or not the Japanese military's treatment of prisoners was bad or they gave their prisoners breakfast in bed....how does that justify frying babies?

Either way, war is not "us" vs "them"....that's the sleight of hand the dickwads that profit from war tell people to get them to blindly follow. It is murder to kill INDIVIDUALS that have not harmed you. THAT cannot be negated by imaginary political boundaries.

Ain't no Viet Cong ever called me a nigger. (or something like that) - Cassius Clay
He grasped that the people of another country weren't his enemy, I hope some day you can.

Someacdude said:

Ok , if your not smoking ,smoke,if you are smoking STOP,

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Now I am wonder if you are even a US citizen. You have begun to cast personal aspersion and giving orders.

Canajian, eh?

My doctor gives my medical advice and it is none of your gosh darn business.

Doer said:

It is what is it, my friend. Please address that. No one is trying to justify, OK?

See those are straw dogs. Stand them up and take the piss. You wish we were trying to justify. My god, man. As I said.
Beyond you.

The anti-constituional forces are attempting to foil right and left with this crap of apology and justification.

It is bullshit, the very idea that we even want to understand the world's scorn. It is an attempt to force weakness and shame into our warrior culture. You fall for that. We don't.

You are just wiggling on the baited hook, to me. The catch becomes more bait.

Neither of you guys can address reality, seems to me. It is a re-gurged theory.

We have all freedom we can have at the moment and I think you just need to mind your store and let the elected of us, deal with it.

You think this is so easy, that it must be some kind of conspiracy to keep it from solving itself. That is the joke.

Just WE chickens trying to protect the roost.

Click to expand...

To accept what is as what will always be? Not me, eventually people will realize if they sail to the horizon, they won't fall off the earth.

Speaking of chickens...I have a coyote to go take care of.

Rob Roy said:

Not quite. The Japanese diplomats tried hard to surrender....they only wanted to keep their Emperor as a figurehead. Truman wanted to show off his new toy to scare the Russians and demanded an "unconditional surrender", knowing he wouldn't get one. He had his excuse to use the bomb....and he did...killing hundreds of thousands of women, children and old men.

Whether or not the Japanese military's treatment of prisoners was bad or they gave their prisoners breakfast in bed....how does that justify frying babies?

Either way, war is not "us" vs "them"....that's the sleight of hand the dickwads that profit from war tell people to get them to blindly follow. It is murder to kill INDIVIDUALS that have not harmed you. THAT cannot be negated by imaginary political boundaries.

Ain't no Viet Cong ever called me a nigger. (or something like that) - Cassius Clay
He grasped that the people of another country weren't his enemy, I hope some day you can.

Click to expand...

I would research that, they surrendered and he was still declared emperor , Truman used the bomb to save lives, and i wasn't ever a fan of Truman.

Doer said:

Now I am wonder if you are even a US citizen. You have begun to cast personal aspersion and giving orders.

Canajian, eh?

My doctor gives my medical advice and it is none of your gosh darn business.

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Oh no im for sure an American , but im pretty sure in know who you are , retired?

Look , your generation never had to face what some others have, how much was the dollar worth when you where 16?

Your one hostile dude, you kinda remind me of the old union dudes who always voted democrat and never knew why but would despise you if you ever questioned anything, why? Because they never really understood it themselves.

Rob Roy said:

there is no "we" in slave.

Nope, not a stand alone anarchist. Just a person that has a problem with attempts to use rationalizations as justifiable reasoning. Just a person that tries hard to live my core philosophy rather than shifting it around to justify immoral acts.

No individual snowflake ever thinks it is responsible for the avalanche. (Not an original...I just can't remember who to credit)

Speaking of flakes....sometimes I have a hard time unraveling what you are saying, but I sense you're an alright guy. PEACE.

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Howeffa zere iss a "ve". cn

echelon1k1 said:

Not so, civilian casualty mitigation is a priority for the Afghan effort and MUST go hand in hand with COIN if either are to succeed.



.

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If that is not the truth of it NOTHING is.

We must read our history. Alexander faced the same problem in the -stan. The guys you need to help you in the winter, and you pay them, are the same ones you will fight in the spring.

He almost never made it into India because of that.

In Viet Nam it was hearts and minds, but iron bombs, no aim.

So, bad for civilians? The Cong were brutal. Saddam was brutal. Arafat was a brutal thug.
Only in self rule do we even care beyond the military needs.

How stupid to think the art of war is not minimizing the deaths of the worker bee civilians.

I'm watching a show right now about it. Embedded, with a Marine Company with a hell fire, pencil pushing combat Capt on search and destroy mission are going to fantastic risks to even be on the ground when the could carpet bomb the entire valley.

They have to push and survive and re-supply and push and look and sneak and mine sweep and have a pair of tanks on the flanks. They go thru the walls like in WW2, everything is booby trapped.

And they finally triangulate on the command post by Observation of all these Tangos and their movements. They have Apaches at long distance and low hover observing through high power, under the tree lines.

Finally they can assure, 6 Actual, there are fighters and only fighters in the C&C but they still cannot attack.

They push by and ignore it for more chatter intel on the tango radios and get more triangulation of the dirt bike movements, take more rounds, find more IEDs.

Then when they have pushed past maybe 10K meters, the Taliban commanders get a GPS battle rocket from miles away while they watch. Hard on Marines to just watch. But it is a Profession.