V series "Tetras"

The ECM (European Circuit Bank)is willig to give credit

here is the first charge...

an all in one Fan-Controller
http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/lm2907-n.pdf

all the best

guod said:

The ECM (European Circuit Bank)is willig to give credit

here is the first charge...

an all in one Fan-Controller
http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/lm2907-n.pdf

all the best

Click to expand...

Thank you ,dear brother ...

I've already looked at that particular IC ..
But since here in Hellas we 're not able to use Paypal or Credit cards to buy anything from abroad right now
and as I was not able to find that IC in the local market( not available ) ,soon I've droped the idea of using it ...
At least for now ...


P.S.
At the 741 op-amp schematic R3 (1 K ) is not really needed to be there ..

So here's a new schematic ...

(I'm still trying to remember where the heck I've stashed my breadboard ...
Can't find it ... ...I swear it was laying on my bench before couple of days ...
Strange things are happening .. ...)


Cheers.

...thanks Guod...

...decoding guod... ...ecm the big problem... or issue...

...wilson... ...the electronic way its not for me... right now...
...maybe my only way ...the old industrial way with reles timers and contactors and other things... maybe a bit crappy... but i like too...

...and for the ..fan controller all in one... circuit similar to SDS but add lm2907... too much for me right now... maybe someday when i understand better the electronic way...

...but thanks its too nice see you writing a bit again...

...Wilson... ...Guod dont like my posts... ...sorry ...surely my faults...

...then decoding guod... i must shout my mouth... and go back chozo too fast......ok sm actived... i surrended...no more crazy ideas here... ...surely changing to other hobby too....

...my best wishes for my loved bros... from my heart...

....time to infusion and some air... and a goods ...

...other ticket today to go on night train... fuck...what a summer for me...

...back to sm mode... (looking for other new forums... i saw two good possibles...) ...more to read or learn... en modo solo lectura.. claro..




Saludos

Weelllll..
Guod,I've to admit that you bring me luck !!!
After your kind "push " and some phonecalls ,i did manage to trace some LM2907s !!!
( the 8 pin dip)
Anyway ...
I did manage also ,to make up a -quicky- schematic ...
(Might have some mistakes...I haven't slept at all and I did not check so much about linearity ,response and ripple )




For sure it needs few external components ..(I've not placed a bypassing cap at Vcc pin ...)
I've timed it for a 1200 rpm fan ..
If fan speed goes below ~ 1000 rpm ,then the relay should switch OFF ..

(2 pulses per rotation ,1200 rpm ,60sec per min ..
Input frequency is 2*1200/60= 40 Hz
- 200 rpm threshold => 1000 rpm / 60 sec * 2 pulses per sec = 33.333 Hz ...



I2,I3 = 0.000180 A typ. ( 140 uA min.-240 uA max )
K (gain constant ) = 1 typ

Vo = VCC × fin × C1 × R1 × K =>
Vo = 12 *40 * 0.00000015 *1* 100'000 = 7.2 Volts

Vo / R1 must be less or equal to 0.00018
7.2 / 100'000= 0.000072


V ripple = Vcc/2 * C1/C2 *( 1- ( Vcc*f in * C1 / I2 ) peak to peak ...
V ripple = 6* 0.00000015 /0.000001 *( 1- ( 12*40*0.00000015 ) / 0.00018 ) =>
V ripple = 6*0.15 *( 1- 0.4 ) = 0.54 V p-p



So far so good ...


1/ RC timing = 1 / 2* ( 100'000 Ohms * 0.00000015 Farads ) = 1/ 0.03= 33.333 Hz
(1000 rpm for the fan ... )

f max = I2 / (C1*Vcc )= 0.00018 / ( 0.00000015*12) = 100 Hz
100 hz = 100/2*60= 3000 rpm ...
More than enough tolerance in max input frequency ,there ...
(Phanteks PH-140XP max rotation speed = 1200 rpm +/- 250 )

Going to get the LM2907 tomorrow ...
See if it works ,with those values of R1 ,C1 and C2 ...


Cheers.


P.S. Thanx ,Guod ,once more for your guidance ...
Please post any remarks ,if you wish so ...
Two minds are operating ,far better than a single one ...

Although ....
Come to think better about it ..
1000 rpm might be kinda of "t oo close " threshold ...
140 mm fans are quite notorious for "stalling " and reducing their rot. speed ..
Maybe I should opt for lower rpm threshold ..
like 800 or 600 rpm ...
?


Cheers ..

Guod,please-please-please .....
I could use some of your wisdom ,dear brother...
I'm ...eh
...Not the monster i used to be ...
I'm tired ...
I'm weak ..
I'm losing my memory
And I can't sleep at nights ...
Still...
...I got carried away ...

I can't make the damn 741 circuit operate with a NPN as a relay actuator / switch ... ..
( I too tired and messed-up to think properly how the stupid output pin of the 741 will be brought low to ground ,when pulses from fan TACH stop .. )
Still....
It works fine with a PNP ( 2N3906 ) but not with NPN ...
So .,that way if Fan PSU fails ,the LED drivers won't switch OFF ...
( The driver(s) now ,have to be connected to Normally Closed relay pin ...)

Still ,the " turn ON delay " relays will switch OFF the drivers in case of Fan PSU fails ,
as they are powered from the fan PSU..
But ,I would like to have this circuit operating with a NPN (2N3904 or BC547 ) as a relay switch ...
Anyway ...Most probably ,I will follow your advice and go with the LM2907 ...
( 99.999% probability )
But if you have any insights ,how this 741 circuit can be tuned to work with a NPN at the end ,I will be most grateful ...
( Keep calm & make a stupid -fuckin' greek happy ,please ...)

Anyway ..the new (working fine ) LM741 circuit ...




Cheers.

...thanks SDS... im sure... v series more secure than previous...electronic protections on DIY comercial lamp... for my pov ...winner again......more costumers secures and happy too...then you happy too

...test with calm bro... winner infusion time... enjoy the moment...

...Wilson... back to chozo...



Saludos

final circuit ...Soon to be tested ...

R relay coil =~370 Ohms
220+370=590 Ohm
I load=12/590=~ 20mA ( 50mA is max for the output of the lm2907 )
R7 is placed for a hysteresis,to avoid relay chattering from output voltage ripple.
(V ripple = ~1 V p-p ,at worst case )
Input is AC coupled,as the TACH signal does not swing below ground .


The NPN transistor shown at figure 5b ,is already provided by the fan.
It's actually the fan's TACH output.It just needs to be pulled up to +12VDC by a resistor ( 4,7-10 K )
and then to be AC coupled to the input of the LM2907.The resistor to ground ensures that the IC input is not left floating = picking stray noise ..As it is quite sensitive ...(minimum input signal 30 mV p-p ,meaning that at +15mV or -15 mV noise the input will pick up a false pulse .
Let alone that the input bias current is just 0.0000001 A (typically ) ......
And has to find it's "path " to the ground ,somehow ...Thus the resistor ...( 33K is fine I guess )

Cheers.

Thanks Sds ...you only compit with yourself... ...for my pov... other great winner step...

...greeks are lucky... great (awesome..)comercial lamps DIY... ...on bad times ...on her territory...

...when the situation change a bit.... ...more evolutions on models.... the actual its hard to beat....

...maybe better conectors with wago winsta 770 ...or maybe other with high ip grade (heliospectra style)...

...or other kelvin options to go on vegetative only ...or floration only.... who knows...

...or maybe with reflectors and posible auxiliary lenses fixed with magnets (temporay use) and envolving the die zones with better ventilation too...

...i know the reflector and the lenses way its under test by others.. times tell us more...
...I know Wilson I know.... ...back to chozo... ...happy dreamsss bro...



Saludos

Firstly ...
Big-big thanx to Guod ,for the LM2907/LM2917 suggestion ...
No wonder ,I call him "Master Guod " ...


And then ...
The finished "fan fail protection module "...



The humble top-secret SDS lab ....



The V Series Tetras Mark III "patient" on the surgery ...bench ...


And the final schematic of the circuit...


And inside the zip folder ,the result of the "surgery" ...

Cheers.

...thanks SDS...



cheers

Been thinking ...
I've already made lots of DIY LED grow lights ...
Starting from the poor-ass ,heatsink+e-bay MCPCB +asian plastic 8 mm high-output el cheapo LEDS
(Later a company -ASTIR - asked for the design in order to massively produce it ..No problema ..)

Later I became a member of this forum ,coming to see Guod's "modular " DIY LED grow light ..
I was truly fascinated by it ...
Although ,i've never believed and trusted the growth efficiency of monochromatic LEDs - and that being the main "dispute " between myself vs Guod ... and few...nah ..make it plenty ... others at that time - I still loved his design ...
It was the spark ,sort of speaking ...

'Cause of him-and with lots of his help,have to say - I've discovered the "magic" world of electronics ...
And now ....
Just imagine how happy a man feels when he can combine plenty of beloved activities and "situations " into a single one ...
Well...
I've always liked being stoned or high ,liked also to grow my own herb ,liked biology ,physics ,chemistry ,did not like maths -and still do not ..and electronics ...
|Anyway ..
|Blah -blah -blah ...
By now my designs ,probably have evolved a tad ,from the very first pieces of
...shhhh..do not say it loud ...

V series Mk III ...

6 x output power settings
7-seg LED numeric display of settings
turn -on delay as a inrush current supression
Fan & fan PSU fail protection
High quality Meanwell drivers
" White LIght Magic" all the way with Vero 29 LED arrays

And who knows what the future beholds ...

Why all these ?
Dunno ..
I'm under a lot of pressure nowdays..
Can't afford a "shrink" (can't afford many things actually ,nowdays ...)
What's left ?

Hope ,I guess ..

Hope dies last ....

Be safe and sound everybody outta there ...
Ain't a place made by and for angels this giant sphere ..
Floating in the vast ,cold & dark universe that surrounds it ...

All we can do ,I guess ,is to hope ..
And always try for the better ...

Cheers.

stardustsailor said:

And some quick notes & observations ,
regarding the spectrum of emitted light from Vero 29 versus CXA 3070,
both @ 3000K 80Ra .

.................................................................

1) The PPF percent distribution of the two COBs,for the range 380-780 nm is as follows
( BL 380-499 nm - GR 500-599 nm - R 600-699 nm -FR 700-780 nm ) :

Vero 29 3K80Ra : 10.67% - 40.73% - 44.04% - 4.57% LER: 320-322 ( typ:321 )
CXA3070 3K80Ra :10.62% - 41.37% - 43.71% - 4.3% LER: 324-326 ( typ:325 )
............
2) Both of these COBs can be used for vegging with great results .

Just do not place them near the plant tops,'cause your plant(s) will stay extremely compact (short ) ...
And that will have a negative impact on yield ..(Trust me,on that one ) .
Later in flowering ,COBs and plant(s) can have a smaller distance between them .
No need for extra monochromatic LEDs .Just give raw power (more COBs ) if you want bigger yields.
Nothing more is needed .

Cheers.

Click to expand...

Hi,
First of all thank you for all the time that you put in detailing everything to us.
now my problem : i want to grow some sativas (SuperSilverHaze) in SOG...and all sativas, especially SSH has a tendency to stretch a lot ...putting the seedlings directly into flower under 3k Vero 29 very close to them , will prevent the plants from growing tall?
also , in your opinion what powers of COBs will replace 600 and 1K HPS?

Thanks.

cucuielu said:

Hi,
First of all thank you for all the time that you put in detailing everything to us.
now my problem : i want to grow some sativas (SuperSilverHaze) in SOG...and all sativas, especially SSH has a tendency to stretch a lot ...putting the seedlings directly into flower under 3k Vero 29 very close to them , will prevent the plants from growing tall?
also , in your opinion what powers of COBs will replace 600 and 1K HPS?

Thanks.

Click to expand...

- Having the Vero 29 3K ,drived quite lower than the nominal 2.1 Amps , close to seedlings ,yes ,up
to some extend ,keeps internodal distances ,quite "tight" ..
But as the plant grows ,the Vero 29s have to be either be driven harder or more COBs to be added / switched ON .

In the first case ,the COB arrays should maintain quite a distance from leaf canopies ...
Too much E/M radiation is being emitted from small areas ...Radiant power and LES ...
It has to be left a distance ,so for the light density ,to lower a a bit ...Plants are not high-efficient machines ....
Plants are unefficient ,lazy ,sensitive ,fragile and mortal as - all - the rest of the living organisms ....
And in their world,the usual work- hours are many ,too..
12 hours the least to say ,every day ....



- well ... what powers of COBs will replace 600 and 1K HPS?...
Powers ...Yeap ..correct ...

if the radiant efficiency of a 600 W HPS is 40% ,initially ,then that equals 240 W of Radiant light power ...

The more the COB arrays are used and the lower are driven ,the more the efficiency goes higher ...
The less the COB arrays are used and the higher are driven,the more the efficiency decreases .

The rest of the math ,has to be done by you ...
That's the process of " keep learning " ,that everyone has to go through ...
You see ...
The Mind ,on the other hand is or has to be a super-efficient,always awake & ...thirsty for more ,rough ,workaholic
and immortal being ...

Cheers.

Recently ,i got some reports ,from couple of V series users ..
Two of them ( not knowing each other seem to follow the same " grow strategy " ...
Eco-( logical-of-nomical ) crisis ....

Their lights are the same model ..
2X Vero 29 3K 80Ra ,with a max . drive of 2.2 A .With a max plug power of 195 Watts .

They both growing a steady pot number ...
Four pots ...
Both are using same substrate ( black/blonde peat mix + perlite )....
But one is going the organic way ( premixes various composts and organic solid ferts in the substrate )
The other one is using a mix of domestic made ferts ,mainly based on a certain one in liquid form ..
http://www.viorylagro.gr/images/stories/pdf-labels-1/EVORIL_Liquid-500ml.pdf
http://www.viorylagro.gr/images/stories/pdf-msds-1/MSDS-evoril-liquid-english.pdf

Well ..They both start the plants from 12/12 regime ...
Their lights are for 12 hours every day switched ON , all year round ...
Every ~ 4 weeks ( forgot to tell that both are growing with regular seeds ) ,thge plants show their sex
and the males are removed ,and the empty pots are replaced with ones with new seeds planted .
So they ,both end up ,harvesting one to three plants, every other month or so ( every 4 to 6 weeks ) .

The one using the liquid ferts is having the light at max ( 195 W plug power ) constantly ...
The " organic guy" ,depending on the ambient temperatures of the grow site is having the two
Veros driven between 1000 mA and 2200 mA ....

The "liquid ferts " guy is reporting average harvest per 4-6 weeks of 90 - 130 grams

The organic lad ,is also very close ,reporting average harvest per 4-6 weeks of 70 - 100+ grams .

They both seem to report ,that the quality (potency & aroma /taste /smell ) is
profoundly better ( stronger ) ,than their previously 400 W HPS grow harvests .


They used to harvest 200-380 grams average
every ~ 14 weeks ..
380/14 best case ...
~ 27,143 grams per week..

4 weeks * 7 days* 18 hours* 0.4 kW
plus
10 weeks * 7 days * 12 hours* 0.4 kW

.......=537,6 kWh

380 grams / 537,6 kWh = 0,707 grams per kWh ...
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now they are harvesting 70 to 130 grams ,every four to six weeks ..
130/4 weeks ( best case,as in previous case ) ...
32,5 grams per week ....

For 14 weeks they spend ,at "worst" case (for light only )

14 weeks * 7 days *12 hours* 0.195 kW
= 229,32 kWh ...

Let's see ...
14 weeks * 32,5 grams per week = 455 grams


455 grams / 229,32 kWh = 1,985 grams per kWh ....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But I want still to examine the worst case scenario with LED COB arrays ...

70 grams every 6 weeks ...
70/6 = 11,667 gpwk

14 weeks * 11,667 =163,333 grams ...


163,333 grams / 229,32 kWh = 0,713 grams per kWh

Still a bit better than the 400W HPS ...
At worst case .....

...


Cheers.

Still ,a more precise examination could be - even - more revealing...

Instead of using " mean dry harvest weight / cycle period in weeks "
we should use " mean dry harvest weight / cycle period in hours "
And we should include the 10% average HPS ballast losses ,too ...
and then ....



HPS ,14 weeks cycle ( veg 18/6 *4 weeks + bloom 12/12 *10 weeks ):

Max reported average harvest from users : 380 grams

MeanTimeBetween Harvest : ( 18*7*4 ) + (* 12*7*10 ) = 1344 hours `

Average " max yield " of dry matter per cycle hour : 380 / 1344= 0.283 grams per hour

Average kwh spent for 14 weeks :
4 weeks * 7 days* 18 hours* 0.44 kW
+
10 weeks * 7 days * 12 hours* 0.44 kW = 591,36 kWh

Average " max yield " of dry matter per kWh : 380 / 591,36 = 0,643 grams per kWh .


2x Vero 29 @ 2.2 max ( perpetual 12/12 ) :

Max reported average harvest from users : 130 grams
Min reported average harvest from users : 70 grams

MTBH : 4 (min ) to 6 (max ) weeks = 336 to 504 hours .
( 12 hours of illumination per dia ,7/7 )

Average " max yield " of dry matter per cycle hour :
130 grams / ( 4 weeks * 7 days*12 hours/dia ) = 0,387 grams per hour

Average "max yield" of dry matter per 14 weeks =
14*12*7 = > 1176 hours * 0,387 grams per hour = 455,112 grams

Average kwh spent for 14 weeks_for comparison to HPS :
14 weeks * 7 days *12 hours* 0.195 kW= 229,32 kWh ...

Average " max yield " of dry matter per kWh_ for comparing to HPS : 455,112 / 229,32 = 1,985 grams per kWh .
More than 3x times dry matter yield per energy spend ,than the old HPS growing style ...

Samewise ...

Average " min yield " of dry matter per cycle hour :
70 grams / ( 6 weeks * 7 days*12 hours/dia ) = 0,139 grams per hour

Average "min yield" of dry matter per 14 weeks_ for comparison to HPS =
1176 hours * 0,139 grams per hour = 163,464 grams

Average " min yield " of dry matter per kWh_comparing to HPS : 163,464 / 229,32 = 0,713 grams per kWh .

Still ,at their "average worst case scenario of yield " , the " 2x Vero 29 perpetual " style produces more dry matter yield per energy spend ( <= aka ' herb obtained per electron juice paid for ' ) ,
than the " average best case scenario" of old HPS growing style ...

Cheers.

hi SDS.
Thanks for all the info , it's still being digested [ can't add Ouzo or Jaegermeister because it's too early... ) ]
I haven't decided yet what to use for the heatsinks .
These days i will experiment with :
http://www.tme.eu/en/details/rad-a52317_1000/radiators/ and
http://www.led-heatsink.com/upload/files/IceLED_Xtra_Bridgelux_Active_Star_LED_Cooler_ø99mm.pdf and
http://www.led-heatsink.com/upload/files/IceLED_Xtra_Ultra_Bridgelux_Active_Star_LED_Cooler_ø99mm.pdf.

I want to run them at ambient temp so i don't need to add extra cooling for the lights, want to keep the extraction at the minimum ( enough for the plants of course) but no to have to also worry about the heat coming from the lights.

I currently have 10 VERO 29 4K and i was thinking of experiment with CREE also , form what i saw on the forum, they have better efficiency...in your experience, do they worth the extra money ? Once , a good engineer (my father) told me not to take by word everything from the data sheet , especially in DIY or non-optimal conditions ,from reading your posts, i see that you you have pretty much experience in electronics and i think you share the same principle.
I perfectly understand that total power = radiated power + dissipated power ( i just need a lot of light and to run at ambient temp, i don't mind about electricity costs).

During my life, i have SMT a lot of electronic devices by hand (0602,0806,QFN and MLF included) ..A lot about thermal efficiency and heat dissipation and ventilation i learned from operating a big BITCOIN farm until 15 months ago...(600 Spartan 6 FPGAs and 5k ASICS) and all the boards were ONLY assembled in china (PCB + PCBA ). This is just for letting you know that i know a few things about electronics (not as much as you ) ...but i am new to growing and i want to apply what i know in order to design a nice farming system .

I really appreciate the time that you take to answer the questions being asked to you in this forum . It's really nice to see people who are willing to share their knowledge and help others with true advices ...i wonder why i can't see that in the real world
Thanks

Talking about " service life " ....

Bridgelux states :
(...)
Lumen Maintenance Characteristics
Bridgelux projects that the Vero 29 family of LED array products will deliver, on average, greater than 70% lumen maintenance after 50,000 hours of operation at 1.5X the nominal drive current in Table 1. This performance assumes constant current operation with the case temperature maintained at or below 85°C. Continuous use beyond five years may result in a lower lumen maintenance. For use beyond these operating conditions please consult your Bridgelux sales representative for further assistance.
These projections are based on a combination of package test data, semiconductor chip reliability data, a fundamental understanding of package related degradation mechanisms, and performance observed from products installed in the field using Bridgelux die technology. Bridgelux conducts lumen maintenance tests per LM80. Observation of design limits is required in order to achieve this projected lumen maintenance.
(...)


usually a HPS is replaced when it has reached it's LM90 point ( 90% of initial luminosity ) ...

The Vero 29 array will reach at LM70 point after 50,000 hours ( that's about 5 years ) of
continuous use ,at Tc = 85°C and driven at 3,15 Amps .

I' not sure ,but I trust that when driven at 2,1 A mps max (their "nominal " drive current ) ,
for 12 hours per day ,with a Tc that never rises beyond 55-60°C,then most probably their LM 90 or LM80 ,
is around 50,000 hours( or more ) and not their LM70 point ...

Average LM90 for 400 W HPS = 16,000 to 32,000 hours

The price of 2x Vero 29 is more or less equal to the price of a single 400 W HPS ...

So once the main fixture is obtained ,the two COB arrays could be replaced approx. every 5 years ,
with the same price paid for a HPS ...
The quality of herb obtained is higher (or : at least usually reported to be as such )
And the "dry herb weight per kWh spent" ratio ,at worst case is equal to that of 400W HPS ,
while at best case can be as high, as three times more ..( perpetual)


Having the 400W HPS similarly to be on a perepetual cycle ,
the kWh spent is more than double ,than the 2x Vero 29 .. ( 0.44 kW vs 0.195 kW ) ..

So even if the HPS yields double quantity than the COB perpetual
( that would be 140 - 260 grams per 4 to 6 weeks ) ,still
both sould have about equal "average max " of "dry herb weight per kWh spent" ratio...

I.e.

HPS best case perpeptual,harvesting one to trhee female plants every 4 to 6 weeks :

260 grams per 4 weeks = 260 / ( 4*12*7 ) = 0.774 grams per hour
vs
0,387 grams per hour -best case- of Veros ...

For HPS ...
4 weeks *7 days per week * 12 hours per day * 0,44 kW at plug = 147.84 kWh ..
260 grams / 147.84 kWh = 1.759 grams per kWh ...

For the 2x Vero 29
4 weeks *7 days per week * 12 hours per day * 0,195 kW at plug = 65.52 kWh ..
130 grams / 65.52 kWh = 1.984 grams per kWh ...

Anyway ..Say, almost equal ...



What's the point of all these ?
That just two Vero 29 LED COB arrays ,
when driven at their nominal current ( 2,1 A mps )
will last equal -if not longer -& produce equal-if not more -throughout their service life
and total energy consumption , than a 400 W HPS will do at it's best or pretty close to it's best .

Just two ...

Let alone 10x Vero 29's ..
for sure they can beat a 600 W or even a 1000 W HPS ...



cheers-z--z-z !


P.S. : The "initial cost " of the rest parts of a high quality lighting system ,is on
parity ,regarding parts quality versus price,
while same wise the cost is about the same,for both cases ....
Building a high -quality 400 HID system requires an expensive reflector ( ~$ 150 ) as also an expensive high quality el. ballast ( ~$ 200 ) .

Samewise , building a high quality LED 2x COB 195W system
requires quite expensive parts
( CC drivers , heat sink ,fans ,etc = ~ $350 ) .

The total price is -more or less - about the same for both cases ...
Then just the bulbs or the COB arrays ,are being replaced .....

The small difference that makes a whole lot of a change ,is
the " D.I.Y. " thing ....

" Ecology of an economical crisis " and " Economy of an ecological crisis " ..
The two main driving forces behind -some - of the underground "home-grow" scene ...
And the "Doing-it-yourself "part,makes up as a serious variable of the whole "action" ...
In more than one ways ,actually ...
Or better yet ...
In all the ways possible ,probably ?
As in "Growing It Yourself . "


.....