% values that don't add up

Flowki

Flowki

Well-Known Member
Cal nitrate for example has 1.28 EC per gram > hanna ppm 640.

The label total Nitrogen is 15.5%

The label total calcium oxide is 26%

So that grand total obviously does not make up 100%.

Am I wrong in thinking the missing % is just what carries the cal/N? and once dissolved it does not add any ppm (only the cal/N does).

If so then how are you suppose to work out how much of that end ppm is cal and how much is N?.
 
Flowki

Flowki

Well-Known Member
Any suggestion on this or in general?. Most % values have a blank and it's confusing.

For example as above.

26% of 640 is 166.5.
15.5% of 640 is 99.2

Adding those total values together only turns out at 265.7 ppm of the total indicated 640ppm. So obviously 58.5% or some 374ppm is missing with this method. I'm doing something very wrong here?.
 
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churchhaze

Well-Known Member
Oxygen weighs something...

Calcium oxide is a conversion factor. (CaO convert to Ca = x 0.72) That means that 26% CaO is 18.72% Ca.

EC doesn't work the way you think it does. Stop trying to use it the way you're using it and suddenly things will make more sense... ppm is mg/L. The way you know you have 640ppm is by adding 640mg worth of it to a liter bottle and filling the rest with distilled water.

The percentages they list are percent by mass (mass/mass), while ppm is concentration. (mass/volume). Different....
 
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Flowki

Flowki

Well-Known Member
churchhaze said:
Oxygen weighs something...

Calcium oxide is a conversion factor. (CaO convert to Ca = x 0.72) That means that 26% CaO is 18.72% Ca.

EC doesn't work the way you think it does. Stop trying to use it the way you're using it and suddenly things will make more sense... ppm is mg/L. The way you know you have 640ppm is by adding 640mg worth of it to a liter bottle and filling the rest with distilled water.

The percentages they list are percent by mass (mass/mass), while ppm is concentration. (mass/volume). Different....
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I'm sorry you'll have to excuse me, whats obvious to you is foreign to me. I'm trying to understand all this but with-out knowing what I'm looking for (didn't know cao converts like that) then it's like shooting in the dark.


You've lost me on the EC part. 1L with 1 gram cal nitrate added to it read 1.28 ec. That does not mean 640 ppm?, all I had to go off was a ec to ppm conversion table on top of using that 1.28x1000 divide by 2 (that's hanna right?). What ever the case, how do you know how much of the 640 is cal and how much is N?. Is it that the end ec/ppm reading is closer to 55% cal and 45%N?.

I feel like I've asked the same question again but not clear on how else you are suppose to use the ec reading.
 
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churchhaze

Well-Known Member
Flowki said:
You've lost me on the EC part. 1L with 1 gram cal nitrate added to it read 1.28 ec. That does not mean 640 ppm?
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That's exactly what I just said. 640ppm is just an approximation. It's an approximation based on there being just 1 type of salt in the water.

Other than EC being an approximation, it doesn't actually tell you how much ppm is in the water. Different salts change the EC more than others, and pH even has an affect on EC.
 
Indacouch

Indacouch

Well-Known Member
I honestly tried to follow this just now but couldn't made me dizzy long night il look back in this evening ....looks interesting though
 
Funkraum

Funkraum

Member
measure tap ec/ppm

i add 1 kg of cal nitrate ten ltr water i mix 20ltr batch at a time
for flower basic feed 1.5kg to 10 ltr of water again i make 20 ltr batches

map 1kg to 1o lts water
mkp 1kg to 10 lts

super k same

and if you want t make some sort macro element then you can work it out.

strictly hydro

also i might add to be honest it not make much difference, you base solution, it about what you tank is and what you setting are and how you plant respond.

have a nice evening
 
Flowki

Flowki

Well-Known Member
churchhaze said:
That's exactly what I just said. 640ppm is just an approximation. It's an approximation based on there being just 1 type of salt in the water.

Other than EC being an approximation, it doesn't actually tell you how much ppm is in the water. Different salts change the EC more than others, and pH even has an affect on EC.
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Earlier you spoke of adding 640mg to gain 640 ppm. However 1G was added to gain the read out of 640 ppm. So the EC meter is over reading by some 250 ppm?. I take it a ppm meter is what s required, but the question again how do you determine how much of the 640 (or w/e total number is true) is cal and how much is N.

The tap water has 0.13 ec but that was deducted from the final ec number before converting to the 640 ppm, it's not that simple?. By the area water board it has 18mg/L of cal but not sure what else.

Basically looking to use the calN with This and epsom as as a late A and all B with calN reduction.
 
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churchhaze

Well-Known Member
Flowki said:
Earlier you spoke of adding 640mg to gain 640 ppm. However 1G was added to gain the read out of 640 ppm. So the EC meter is over reading by some 250 ppm?.
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WHAT DID I JUST FUCKING SAY?

churchhaze said:
The way you know you have 640ppm is by adding 640mg worth of it to a liter bottle and filling the rest with distilled water.
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God damn you're being annoying! Why ask these types of technical questions if you refuse to listen to the answers?

Flowki said:
how do you determine how much of the 640 (or w/e total number is true) is cal and how much is N
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You find how much of the molecule's molar mass is Ca and how much is N using a periodic table. This is something you should be able to do if you passed high-school chemistry. (did you argue with your chemistry teacher this much?)
 
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Flowki

Flowki

Well-Known Member
churchhaze said:
WHAT DID I JUST FUCKING SAY?
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You sound like the kind of person who would push your kid down a hill with no stabilizers on his first bike ride then shout at him for falling off. Once you've worked past your inner nerd rage issues can you tell me how much of the 640mg/l > 640ppm is cal and how much is N? ( an estimation is fine). I don't for a second think that's going to happen, you never seemed stable from the very first post.

I do hope you can forgive my repetitive posting though, I am sorry for that. It's a little disbelief that so many bang on about getting a ppm or ec meter yet they are off by that much. Perhaps you can put yourself in my shoes as I have yours.
 
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churchhaze

Well-Known Member
Flowki said:
You sound like the kind of person who would push your kid down a hill with no stabilizers on his first bike ride then shout at him for falling off. Once you've worked past your inner nerd rage issues can you tell me how much of the 640mg/l > 640ppm is cal and how much is N? ( an estimation is fine). I don't for a second think that's going to happen, you never seemed stable from the very first post.

I do hope you can forgive my repetitive posting though, I am sorry for that. It's a little disbelief that so many bang on about getting a ppm or ec meter yet they are off by that much. Perhaps you can put yourself in my shoes as I have yours.
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You take a chemistry class and then pass it.
 
MisterBlah

MisterBlah

Well-Known Member
First, a little bit about fertilizer labeling.

Nitrogen will be labeled as follows:
Total N
Nitrate Nitrogen (N-NO3)
Ammoniacal Nitrogen (N-NH4)
Urea Nitrogen (N-NH2)
Other Water Soluble Nitrogen
Organic Nitrogen
Other Water Insoluble Nitrogen

Total N is always there as a total weight percentage of Nitrogen molecules in the fertilizer. Every other one is a descriptor for the types of Nitrogen.

Phosphorus will be labeled as "Available Phosphorus (P2O5)"
Potassium will be labeled as "Soluble Potash (K2O)"
Calcium will be labeled as Calcium (CaO) or as Calcium (Ca).
The same goes for Magnesium as (Mg) or (MgO).

Every percentage that is given is a minimum weight percentage.

To get elemental P, K, Ca, or Mg when it is not given, there are conversion factors you must account for. To save you some effort, Yara has a calculator for all of them here: http://www.yara.co.uk/crop-nutrition/Tools-and-Services/conversion-calculator/

So, calcium nitrate...The most common labeling is as follows:

Total Nitrogen (N): 15.5%
Nitrate Nitrogen (N-NO3): 14.4%
Ammoniacal Nitrogen (N-NH4): 1.1%
Calcium (Ca): 19%

We have 14.4% Nitrate Nitrogen. This means, 14.4% of the weight percentage of the fertilizer is Nitrogen that is bonded to oxygen as a Nitrate anion.
If we have 100 g of fertilizer, 14.4 g will be Nitrogen that is in a triple bond with oxygen. There will also be an appropriate amount of oxygen. In this case, there will be 49.3 g of Oxygen as well.

We have 1.1% Ammoniacal Nitrogen. This means, 1.1% of the weight percentage of the fertilizer is Nitrogen that is bonded to hydrogen as an Ammonium cation. So, our 100 g sample of fertilizer has another 1.1 g of Nitrogen. This time bonded to Hydrogen. There are 0.32 g of Hydrogen.

Total Nitrogen is 15.5%, the addition of all forms of Nitrogen. 15.5g of Nitrogen.

Calcium is 19%. So, we have 19 g of Calcium.

If you add those up you'll notice that they do not add up to 100g. You get 84.1g. The rest is water. You may also be asking at this point why there is ammonia is my calcium nitrate. That is because the common grade of "calcium nitrate" that is used in agriculture is a double salt of calcium nitrate and ammonium nitrate, more appropriately called calcium ammonium nitrate. It is also a hydrate, so that's where the water comes from. It's chemical formula is 5Ca(NO3)2.NH4NO3·10H2O.

Now, lets get to adding your 1.0 g of this to water. 1.0 g/L = 1,000 ppm. 1 mg/L = 1 ppm. Remember these. It is important that you recognize what ppm really means. It is simply the same unit as 1 mg/L. That 1 mg could be of any compound.

If you add 1.0 g/L of greenhouse or agricultural grade calcium nitrate, you will have approximately the following concentrations:
Total N: 155 ppm
N-NO3: 144 ppm
N-NH4: 11 ppm
Ca: 190 ppm
TDS: 841 ppm

Now, your Total Dissolved Solids are not just a complete addition of Total N and Ca. TDS is the combination of all solids dissolved in water. So, add up the weight of all your nitrate ions, ammonium ions, and calcium ions, and you can get to TDS. This would be clearer if we had a "Total Nitrate" or "Total Ammonium" weight % for the fertilizer instead of Nitrate Nitrogen (N-NO3) and Ammoniacal Nitrogen (N-NH4).

Your meters will read something entirely different. Your meters will first read EC. Electrical Conductivity. There are many meters that give you many different conversion rates to TDS. Now, I would ESTIMATE your EC to be 1.07. That is simply an estimation based on some principles of chemistry that are irrelevant right now. However, your meter will read something else and it will give you a conversion factor for TDS like 500, 700, or what ever it is. Pay no attention to it in this context. EC is a useless measurement when you are trying to determine the exact elemental concentration of N or Ca or whatever in water. On the whole, EC is just an estimate. It is not an exact number. Some meters have automatic temperature adjustments, some don't. And each ion facilitates the conduction of electricity differently. So, the handheld meters you have will average things together and give you an estimate.

 
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churchhaze

Well-Known Member
MisterBlah said:
First, a little bit about fertilizer labeling.

Nitrogen will be labeled as follows:
Total N
Nitrate Nitrogen (N-NO3)
Ammoniacal Nitrogen (N-NH4)
Urea Nitrogen (N-NH2)
Other Water Soluble Nitrogen
Organic Nitrogen
Other Water Insoluble Nitrogen

Total N is always there as a total weight percentage of Nitrogen molecules in the fertilizer. Every other one is a descriptor for the types of Nitrogen.

Phosphorus will be labeled as "Available Phosphorus (P2O5)"
Potassium will be labeled as "Soluble Potash (K2O)"
Calcium will be labeled as Calcium (CaO) or as Calcium (Ca).
The same goes for Magnesium as (Mg) or (MgO).

Every percentage that is given is a minimum weight percentage.

To get elemental P, K, Ca, or Mg when it is not given, there are conversion factors you must account for. To save you some effort, Yara has a calculator for all of them here: http://www.yara.co.uk/crop-nutrition/Tools-and-Services/conversion-calculator/

So, calcium nitrate...The most common labeling is as follows:

Total Nitrogen (N): 15.5%
Nitrate Nitrogen (N-NO3): 14.4%
Ammoniacal Nitrogen (N-NH4): 1.1%
Calcium (Ca): 19%

We have 14.4% Nitrate Nitrogen. This means, 14.4% of the weight percentage of the fertilizer is Nitrogen that is bonded to oxygen as a Nitrate anion.
If we have 100 g of fertilizer, 14.4 g will be Nitrogen that is in a triple bond with oxygen. There will also be an appropriate amount of oxygen. In this case, there will be 49.3 g of Oxygen as well.

We have 1.1% Ammoniacal Nitrogen. This means, 1.1% of the weight percentage of the fertilizer is Nitrogen that is bonded to hydrogen as an Ammonium cation. So, our 100 g sample of fertilizer has another 1.1 g of Nitrogen. This time bonded to Hydrogen. There are 0.32 g of Hydrogen.

Total Nitrogen is 15.5%, the addition of all forms of Nitrogen. 15.5g of Nitrogen.

Calcium is 19%. So, we have 19 g of Calcium.

If you add those up you'll notice that they do not add up to 100g. You get 84.1g. The rest is water. You may also be asking at this point why there is ammonia is my calcium nitrate. That is because the common grade of "calcium nitrate" that is used in agriculture is a double salt of calcium nitrate and ammonium nitrate, more appropriately called calcium ammonium nitrate. It is also a hydrate, so that's where the water comes from. It's chemical formula is 5Ca(NO3)2.NH4NO3·10H2O.

Now, lets get to adding your 1.0 g of this to water. 1.0 g/L = 1,000 ppm. 1 mg/L = 1 ppm. Remember these. It is important that you recognize what ppm really means. It is simply the same unit as 1 mg/L. That 1 mg could be of any compound.

If you add 1.0 g/L of greenhouse or agricultural grade calcium nitrate, you will have approximately the following concentrations:
Total N: 155 ppm
N-NO3: 144 ppm
N-NH4: 11 ppm
Ca: 190 ppm
TDS: 841 ppm

Now, your Total Dissolved Solids are not just a complete addition of Total N and Ca. TDS is the combination of all solids dissolved in water. So, add up the weight of all your nitrate ions, ammonium ions, and calcium ions, and you can get to TDS. This would be clearer if we had a "Total Nitrate" or "Total Ammonium" weight % for the fertilizer instead of Nitrate Nitrogen (N-NO3) and Ammoniacal Nitrogen (N-NH4).

Your meters will read something entirely different. Your meters will first read EC. Electrical Conductivity. There are many meters that give you many different conversion rates to TDS. Now, I would ESTIMATE your EC to be 1.07. That is simply an estimation based on some principles of chemistry that are irrelevant right now. However, your meter will read something else and it will give you a conversion factor for TDS like 500, 700, or what ever it is. Pay no attention to it in this context. EC is a useless measurement when you are trying to determine the exact elemental concentration of N or Ca or whatever in water. On the whole, EC is just an estimate. It is not an exact number. Some meters have automatic temperature adjustments, some don't. And each ion facilitates the conduction of electricity differently. So, the handheld meters you have will average things together and give you an estimate.
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So how much EC of cal-mag+ do i need again? :eyesmoke:
( :wall: )
 
Flowki

Flowki

Well-Known Member
That is extremely helpful, you should post it separate for a sticky.

So you pretty much work it out as 19% of 1000mg added = 190ppm (approx). I assume base feed solubles is of the same principle where a 15-7-32 at 1g/l = 320ppm K. edit- By 320 I obviously meant 265 ;p......

-removed some redundant questions.
 
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churchhaze

Well-Known Member
Flowki said:
Do you also know how much sulfur is in epsom, it's proved difficult to track down.
Click to expand...


Use this:



The chemical you're interested in is this:

MgSO4·7H2O

Did you have your "duh" moment yet? What percentage by mass of MgSO4·7H2O is Mg? The mass of each element is listed above. Find the molar mass of the whole molecule. Find the molar mass of Mg. How many Mg are in the molecule? What percentage by mass is Mg of the whole molecule? (division operator)
 
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Flowki

Flowki

Well-Known Member
I have admitted and apologized twice for being a dummy yet you still belittled. You said you were done with me and that you were not going to explain molar mass, that was entirely your choice and I gave no objection or insult to it (ok maybe one). After that, instead of just leaving it like a mature adult you mock me more when another poster was trying to help. I let it go over my head (yes the irony) and asked the other poster for further details. You lastly very rudely jump in on a question not directed at you with another immature insult as some kind of subconscious ego cushion to make you feel better about the U-turn of explaining molar mass.

Your help is no longer wanted or appreciated as you are a horrible person to the point I'd choose to not know than answers than deal with you any further. I will at-least let you know you are on ignore, don't waste your time.
 
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churchhaze

Well-Known Member
You're welcome. Not only are you clueless, you're also ungrateful.

You ask these dumb ass questions and when you get the answer, you call the guy who helps you out a terrible person. :dunce:

Even when you get the correct answers, you stubbornly ask the same question over again, wording it in the same exact way as if you're going to all of the sudden get a better answer.



Then you wonder why I lose my patience...
 
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