veganics,bat guano &health

+ WitchDoctor +

+ WitchDoctor +

Well-Known Member
terrycodone said:
someones on the way to self reliance!that bed must be buzzin with all that good micro-bacteria etc,that soiunds like a lot of work though,a lot.either way man thats pretty cool for you and your family,way to handle biz!
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Yea it's a lot of work, but I'm disabled so other than taking care of my indoor girls and working on the house and the garden, I don't have to work. And I don't collect disability or anything like that so it just makes sense to grow my own food. Whole foods is expensive lol, and with so many farmers having issues with GMO and pesticide contamination, and the carelessness of the FDA, I don't really trust organic certifications like I trust my own soil. :hump:
 
terrycodone

terrycodone

Well-Known Member
i feel you its definitely good to stay productive.some shit happened at my job so theres around 32 people that are laid off for 2-3 months,most like myself are collecting unemployment til work gets crackin again.in the meantime though i finally got to plant the strawberry and aloe bed ive been pondering on.
i really do think cannabis is one of the greatest things man can learn to produce,but if shit hits the fan and theres no more grocery stores theres not much we can utilize to feed us in the plant aside from the seeds(packed with nutrition),so vegetables & fruits are a beautiful thing to be able to fall back and depend on.
i imagine there can only be so many variables seperating cannabis cultivating procedure from fruits and/or vegetables,what do you think as far as their differing cultivating conditions on a basic level?
 
+ WitchDoctor +

+ WitchDoctor +

Well-Known Member
I'm still learning a lot about outdoor gardening, but I feel like I'm doing a pretty good job so far. I had lots of time to read up over the last few months lol. A lot of it is similar, but a lot of it isn't. Like my strawberry plants are fruiting and vegging at the same time lol, which is normal for a lot of plants apparently. But with only growing cannabis aside from a couple other house plants and herbs over the last couple years, it's still kinda shocking to see lol.

And I just learned a tip from someone in the gardening section that if you take off the flowers from most plants, you know, beans, squashes, berries, etc it promotes more rapid vegetative growth because the plant doesn't focus on flowering anymore. Sounds familiar right? Lol. But it's all a little different. And some plants need to be staked or caged or whatever, and some sprawl out more. Luckily I found out right before I built the beds that pumpkins and some melons and stuff like to grow vines and they all need to grow in the same direction. So I'll probably make mistakes this year, but they'll be tasty mistakes lol.
 
I

IggyZag

Well-Known Member
I used humboldts line when they came out for over a year, its great stuff for sure, however all it is is an overpriced tea that you can make yourself and the diy is much better and fresher. After I switched from humboldt I ran advanced. Awhile the organic line which didn't improve yield over humboldt but did in quality now I'm running my own made teas and micro teas and the plants are far healthier and less stressed. In a few months ill be doing a side by side on advanced entire organic line against my homemade nutes and teas. However if your not into the whole diy nuites and teas then personally speaking humboldt was the best imo. A and N gave more trichs humboldt more yield but the taste and finish times were better on humboldt and the plants happier apear
 
+ WitchDoctor +

+ WitchDoctor +

Well-Known Member
IggyZag said:
I used humboldts line when they came out for over a year, its great stuff for sure, however all it is is an overpriced tea that you can make yourself and the diy is much better and fresher. After I switched from humboldt I ran advanced. Awhile the organic line which didn't improve yield over humboldt but did in quality now I'm running my own made teas and micro teas and the plants are far healthier and less stressed. In a few months ill be doing a side by side on advanced entire organic line against my homemade nutes and teas. However if your not into the whole diy nuites and teas then personally speaking humboldt was the best imo. A and N gave more trichs humboldt more yield but the taste and finish times were better on humboldt and the plants happier apear
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Wait, so you're saying the taste was better with Humboldt than Advanced right? I didn't like the taste I was getting when I used AN's organic line either, so I did some homework and discovered that NONE of the products in their organic line are actually organic except for Tarantula.

Tarantula is the only product they have (that I know of) that has the OMRI label. None of the other products are organic. They may be organic based, but they are synthetic nutes none the less. If they don't mind paying for the OMRI on the Tarantula they wouldn't mind paying for it on the rest. Especially with how over-priced their nutes are. That's why it doesn't taste as good as other organic lines.

You're definitely better off making your own teas. I use Bio Canna as my base, but I use teas all throughout.
 
terrycodone

terrycodone

Well-Known Member
IggyZag said:
I used humboldts line when they came out for over a year, its great stuff for sure, however all it is is an overpriced tea that you can make yourself and the diy is much better and fresher. After I switched from humboldt I ran advanced. Awhile the organic line which didn't improve yield over humboldt but did in quality now I'm running my own made teas and micro teas and the plants are far healthier and less stressed. In a few months ill be doing a side by side on advanced entire organic line against my homemade nutes and teas. However if your not into the whole diy nuites and teas then personally speaking humboldt was the best imo. A and N gave more trichs humboldt more yield but the taste and finish times were better on humboldt and the plants happier apear
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i understand what your saying about how HN is essentially something i am paying too much for that i can make myself,but to get the organic materials needed and other things to measure the levels of my mixture i have to go a town 1hr away when i have no transportation.i would like to be able to rely on and learn about something at the sa.me time,but for now its just less complicated buying a mass produced organic tea than making it myself and experimenting with different mixtures & strenghts on my crop.i plan to start in the next couple months because by then my current supply of HN will be depleted so ill have to go to the grow shop anyway.plus then ill be working again and can afford to find the best possible mixture for the girls w/o money being a factor .either way theyre perfectly healthy for now and i cant ask for much more than that.
 
+ WitchDoctor +

+ WitchDoctor +

Well-Known Member
If I figure out how to veg and flower with just worm-compost for NPK, I think I'll probably go in the direction of growing stuff like comfrey and other plants that I already know our girls like, and just let the worms compost that stuff as well....might be able to get away from most of my bottles AND not have to use bone or poop. That would be fucking awesome. lol.
 
Kalyx

Kalyx

Active Member
Heck ya it would! Keep us posted on that endeavor. I need to start a vermi. My regular tumbler works but the end product is definitely outdoor use only when done.
 
+ WitchDoctor +

+ WitchDoctor +

Well-Known Member
Hell, start two of them Kalyx ;] It's actually become a hobby now (or an obsession, hard to tell these days lol). I almost cried the other day when I saw some baby worms through the plastic in my storage container after I harvested the N compost. :cry:

We started making our own milks and juicing a lot more just to have more food scraps for this project. Not that we weren't going in that direction anyways lol.

I started a journal finally, I'll publish it after I get some pics tomorrow of them. I've gotta repot some OGs and White Rhinos in the morning. They've gotta veg for another 10 days or so and then I'll flip them and do a side by side with the OGs using Humboldt natural bloom on two of them and ONLY compost tea from the PK compost on the other two. And I'm thinking since I'll have the White Rhinos under the same light in the same room, I'll do a side by side using Humboldt NB on two of them and maybe just high PK ashes from fruit/veg scraps...

Here's a couple pics of some Veganic Blue Dream. She wasn't scheduled to see the Doctor until next weekend, but she was ready for the cure :lol: Lol. Sorry, I just "toaster ovened" a couple buds....couldn't wait. HA.

2012-05-28 20.58.55.jpg2012-05-28 21.17.01.jpg
 
+ WitchDoctor +

+ WitchDoctor +

Well-Known Member
terrycodone said:
sounds pretty damn interesting,and great job on that blue dream!looks AAA
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Thanks man, I'm really happy with them, it's my first time growing them. It's actually the first plant I've grown since winter that didn't get some mites by the end of flower. It's so annoying lol. I get the two-spotted and the red ones, at the same time lol. But it looks like I've defeated them....for now. I hate throwing fan leaves in the garbage when I know I could be juicing them...MITES!!!!

I'll tell you what though...when I first got these blue dream clones four months ago, I got a little sample as well. It had a weird taste and smell to it. Not bad, but kinda perfumy or something. The caregiver told me they use Dutchmaster something or other, hydro nutes.....I promise I can tell the difference lol.

Trying to tell guano from vegan might be one thing, but telling apart an organic flower from one grown with Dutch Master...not hard to do apparently!
 
Wolverine97

Wolverine97

Well-Known Member
personified said:
I'm sorry guys but you say that you flush organics? Why? You do understand that the plant does not get its nutrients from the ferts? Instead it is the bacterial life that exude nutrients that the plants then uptakes. Flushing does not wash away the manures nor all of the microbial life unless of course you use water with lots of chlorine ect. Even then it would take a lot.

The prupose to flushing is to wash away salt build up from the ferts. Unless your adding way to much epson or cal mag you are not going to have this problem. I guess you can have salt build up in cow and horse manures but again you won't be able to flush it all out after planting. If you did not do it before during the composting it is to late.

I would have to experience what your saying about the guanos (which I use) for the same reason. To me it makes no sense based on the way microbial life feeds the plants.
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There's more to it than flushing excess nutrients out of the soil. The plant also holds any reserve nutrients in the cell vacuole. As long as you're getting a decent fade there is no need for flushing, but if someone had grown in a very rich soil and still had dark green fan leaves at harvest, flushing is beneficial. By flushing I mean plain water for the final 10-ish days, or until some fading is evident. I try to keep mine right on that cusp toward the end of flowering, to the point that as soon as I start water only they start to fade.

On the guano thing, I don't know. I think the biggest reason people have health issues who use guano is improper handling. It's truly nasty stuff, and there's a lot of very fine dust that goes airborne as soon as the bag is opened. You have to use a respirator, or you can get a fungal (can't remember specific type) infection in your lungs. Among other nastiness. I don't think (based on what knowledge I do have) that any toxins are taken up by the plant, judging by the way in which the soil nutrient cycle works.

Someone prove me wrong. I'm all ears.
 
Wolverine97

Wolverine97

Well-Known Member
+ WitchDoctor + said:
Which part, the possibility of getting sick from the guano or growing without guano being a "purer" form of medicine?

I don't know of anyone that's gotten sick from guano, but we've proven that manure from sick animals can make us sick if we eat food grown with said manure.
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Well, sort of. People have gotten sick mostly from leafy veggies that grow low to the ground like lettuce, spinach, etc. The illnesses were caused by contaminated (physically contaminated by soil/manure) product. That's why there are recommended times to apply manures for different types of veggies. I'd look up the table/chart thingy, but I'm pressed for time today.
 
mipainpatient

mipainpatient

Active Member
Wolverine97 said:
There's more to it than flushing excess nutrients out of the soil. The plant also holds any reserve nutrients in the cell vacuole. As long as you're getting a decent fade there is no need for flushing, but if someone had grown in a very rich soil and still had dark green fan leaves at harvest, flushing is beneficial. By flushing I mean plain water for the final 10-ish days, or until some fading is evident. I try to keep mine right on that cusp toward the end of flowering, to the point that as soon as I start water only they start to fade.

On the guano thing, I don't know. I think the biggest reason people have health issues who use guano is improper handling. It's truly nasty stuff, and there's a lot of very fine dust that goes airborne as soon as the bag is opened. You have to use a respirator, or you can get a fungal (can't remember specific type) infection in your lungs. Among other nastiness. I don't think (based on what knowledge I do have) that any toxins are taken up by the plant, judging by the way in which the soil nutrient cycle works.

Someone prove me wrong. I'm all ears.
Click to expand...
Just an FYIzzle, talked to a microbio professor once about a process called "bacterial de-nitrification"
This happens when you overwater, caused by resident azotobacter (who normally "fix" nitrogen from the atmosphere by metabolizing it, making it available to the plant via their biomass) who become unable to interact with atmospheric N, they then start eating any N in the soil and supposedly the plant itself, or at least outcompeting the plant for available N. End effect---yellowing leaves, also enhanced by the oxygen deficiency catalyzed by the overwatering. Just wanted to say, if you want less N just feed less from the get-go but this method of "flushing" where gallons upon gallons are dumped into the soil is just a stress regimen that may actually promote hermies and decreased flavor/potency/yield if it goes on too long.
Like wolverine said, if you have proper fade (or leaf senescence) flushing isn't indicated as necessary. I suspect the fading may be genetic, so that might expand the cases where flushing isn't needed, but I just wanted to open the concept to the overwatering angle, as that seems like more of an all-out attack on the plant to me.
My take:
If you want less N around the time of harvest, be more conservative with it earlier on---less left in the vacuole. Yes I do almost 100% water for the last 1-2 weeks as best I can estimate upcoming harvest, but no more water than I would normally use--based on what the plant is drinking. When it comes to salts etc----something really not in play if you do veganics obviously, wouldn't fret epsom myself as you shouldn't really be using much---and the heavy metals that come with them, I regret to inform you that flushing will not remove them if they are in the plant tissue and you are going to be eating them or inhaling them if you smoke the product, depending on the vaporization temperature of the contaminant.
Hope this helps,
MPP

regarding the fungus (histo)--
it wouldn't be coming through the plant tissue ie via vasculatory, rather it would be grower contact like you outlined from lack of respirator or ingestion + incubation, or consumer contact if the fungus spores get into the bud/sugar leaf.
 
Wolverine97

Wolverine97

Well-Known Member
Yeppers, I agree with 100% of that. It's interesting that you mention the Azo's, as I've been experimenting with them but like you say there are conditions that can lead to them robbing N from your soil. I find that they seem to be most beneficial to me during veg. Good post.
 
blindbaby

blindbaby

Active Member
the only enviromentally repsponisible thing to do is to lay all people off any jobs that are left, and starve to death with honor!! right? many of these tree huggers, have no interest in holding down a job, so yes, its very easy to advocate the "dont's". like a president who would rather see all go to hell, than to ok jobs, because they are "dirty" jobs. the perfect world dont exist, it may be a bit closer, after we remove this loser socialist, but we cant go overboard on the green shit. most of it is b.s. -EXCEPT THE COST, which most of the green clan dont worry about, cause its not comming out of thier nanny state pockets. yep. i think killing ourselves in mass suicide (now theres a good cause!) to prove we want the greenest..........sick. sickly green.........
 
+ WitchDoctor +

+ WitchDoctor +

Well-Known Member
Yes, great post MIPainPatient, I appreciated that info!


blindbaby said:
the only enviromentally repsponisible thing to do is to lay all people off any jobs that are left, and starve to death with honor!! right? many of these tree huggers, have no interest in holding down a job, so yes, its very easy to advocate the "dont's". like a president who would rather see all go to hell, than to ok jobs, because they are "dirty" jobs. the perfect world dont exist, it may be a bit closer, after we remove this loser socialist, but we cant go overboard on the green shit. most of it is b.s. -EXCEPT THE COST, which most of the green clan dont worry about, cause its not comming out of thier nanny state pockets. yep. i think killing ourselves in mass suicide (now theres a good cause!) to prove we want the greenest..........sick. sickly green.........
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Um, I have no idea what you're talking about lol. I got the part about us being closer to a perfect world post-Obama, but not the rest... Did you mean to leave this in the political forum? Or do you care to elaborate?
 
terrycodone

terrycodone

Well-Known Member
mipainpatient said:
Just an FYIzzle, talked to a microbio professor once about a process called "bacterial de-nitrification"
This happens when you overwater, caused by resident azotobacter (who normally "fix" nitrogen from the atmosphere by metabolizing it, making it available to the plant via their biomass) who become unable to interact with atmospheric N, they then start eating any N in the soil and supposedly the plant itself, or at least outcompeting the plant for available N. End effect---yellowing leaves, also enhanced by the oxygen deficiency catalyzed by the overwatering. Just wanted to say, if you want less N just feed less from the get-go but this method of "flushing" where gallons upon gallons are dumped into the soil is just a stress regimen that may actually promote hermies and decreased flavor/potency/yield if it goes on too long.
Like wolverine said, if you have proper fade (or leaf senescence) flushing isn't indicated as necessary. I suspect the fading may be genetic, so that might expand the cases where flushing isn't needed, but I just wanted to open the concept to the overwatering angle, as that seems like more of an all-out attack on the plant to me.
My take:
If you want less N around the time of harvest, be more conservative with it earlier on---less left in the vacuole. Yes I do almost 100% water for the last 1-2 weeks as best I can estimate upcoming harvest, but no more water than I would normally use--based on what the plant is drinking. When it comes to salts etc----something really not in play if you do veganics obviously, wouldn't fret epsom myself as you shouldn't really be using much---and the heavy metals that come with them, I regret to inform you that flushing will not remove them if they are in the plant tissue and you are going to be eating them or inhaling them if you smoke the product, depending on the vaporization temperature of the contaminant.
Hope this helps,
MPP

regarding the fungus (histo)--
it wouldn't be coming through the plant tissue ie via vasculatory, rather it would be grower contact like you outlined from lack of respirator or ingestion + incubation, or consumer contact if the fungus spores get into the bud/sugar leaf.
Click to expand...
your post really has some great points with facts to back it,thanks a lot for contributing to the thread .consider my perception altered for the good
 
mipainpatient

mipainpatient

Active Member
no probs glad to input.
also wolv, the azos you use (products like great white) are "Azospirillum brasilense". Not as ever-present as azotobacter---azospirillum seems much more rare. Check out the wiki on azotobacter:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azotobacter
(edit--also of note azotobacter do not colonize plant roots)
In particular ive seen a number of inoculant type products with these particular azoto:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azotobacter_vinelandii

Additionally I have a few articles on file on azospirillum, apparently the ability to colonize plant roots is based in the genetics of the plant--even different phenos might favor/disfavor. since it is so expensive, run some innoc/control(no innoc) runs with each strain and see if you can confirm the ones it doesnt work for = less product used, save $$$

(more info edit)
Azotobacter vinelandii also generate phytohormones and help fix trace (micronutrients like molybedium and iron) as per this article:
http://www.micron.ac.uk/organisms/Avi.html

Not saying wiki is end all be all but it is free and often well written here is the best mention of azospirillum i could find there:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhizobacteria#Symbiotic_relationships
 
Wolverine97

Wolverine97

Well-Known Member
mipainpatient said:
no probs glad to input.
also wolv, the azos you use (products like great white) are "Azospirillum brasilense". Not as ever-present as azotobacter---azospirillum seems much more rare. Check out the wiki on azotobacter:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azotobacter
(edit--also of note azotobacter do not colonize plant roots)
In particular ive seen a number of inoculant type products with these particular azoto:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azotobacter_vinelandii

Additionally I have a few articles on file on azospirillum, apparently the ability to colonize plant roots is based in the genetics of the plant--even different phenos might favor/disfavor. since it is so expensive, run some innoc/control(no innoc) runs with each strain and see if you can confirm the ones it doesnt work for = less product used, save $$$

(more info edit)
Azotobacter vinelandii also generate phytohormones and help fix trace (micronutrients like molybedium and iron) as per this article:
http://www.micron.ac.uk/organisms/Avi.html

Not saying wiki is end all be all but it is free and often well written here is the best mention of azospirillum i could find there:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhizobacteria#Symbiotic_relationships
Click to expand...
Ah, I did not know that. Interesting to say the least. I've been using Azos from RTI, I really should be checking rootballs after the grow to check for nodules but I haven't done that yet. That seems to be the way to surely tell if it's working.

Strangely, the place it seems to be most effective is in a cloner (though I haven't tried that either). I've used it with rapid rooters during cloning, but can't say that I really saw a difference in rooting time. Thanks for the links.
 
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