Vote NO !! and here is why!!

DelSlow said:

Fdd, just curious as to the other initiatives that are being worked on. Thanks.

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http://www.oaklandnorml.org/cms/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid=488

Down to an infraction. No more court time, no more court fees, no criminal record. But the proponents of this bill would have you think that there's no other chance besides their crap bill. No thank you... the current system isn't perfect, but progress is being made.

Granted a Senate Bill isn't an initiative, but there were also more of those, too. They just didn't have someone who made a fortune off the medical community to bank roll getting signatures. It's pretty sick irony that the money patients in need have given unknowingly to this man would be used to bring forth their own demise. There was also AB 390 submitted by Tom Ammiano, which wasn't much better than Prop 19 and there is always the MERP model which never seems to be able to garner enough support, probably because it doesn't hand anyone in particuliar a monopoly.

DelSlow said:

Fdd, just curious as to the other initiatives that are being worked on. Thanks.

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North Carolina is about to make some MAJOR changes in MMJ. Like perpetual gardens and REASONABLE licensing fees.

http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/gascripts/BillLookUp/BillLookUp.pl?Session=2009&BillID=H1380

(1) "Adequate supply" means an amount of marijuana possessed by a qualified patient or collectively possessed by a qualified patient and the qualified patient's designated caregiver that is not more than is reasonably necessary to assure the uninterrupted availability of marijuana for the purpose of alleviating the symptoms or effects of qualifying patient's debilitating medical condition and that is derived solely from the intrastate source; provided that an "adequate supply" shall not exceed a garden with up to 100 square feet of total garden canopy of mature female marijuana plants, measured by the combined vegetative growth area, and 24 ounces of usable marijuana. If usable marijuana is added as an ingredient to food, salve, tincture, or any other preparation to be consumed or used by a registered qualifying patient, the weight of the other ingredients that are not usable marijuana shall not be included for purposes of determining whether a registered qualified patient possesses more usable cannabis than permitted under this section.

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They also have the lowest drug scheduling on marijuana in the US.

§ 90‑94. Schedule VI controlled substances.
This schedule includes the controlled substances listed or to be listed by whatever official name, common or usual name, chemical name, or trade name designated. In determining that such substance comes within this schedule, the Commission shall find: no currently accepted medical use in the United States, or a relatively low potential for abuse in terms of risk to public health and potential to produce psychic or physiological dependence liability based upon present medical knowledge, or a need for further and continuing study to develop scientific evidence of its pharmacological effects.
The following controlled substances are included in this schedule:
(1) Marijuana.
(2) Tetrahydrocannabinols. (1971, c. 919, s. 1; 1973, c. 476, s. 128; c. 1358, s. 15; 1977, c. 667, s. 3; 1981, c. 51, s. 9; 1997‑456, s. 27.)

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Their MMJ model will create a surplus and an affordable product. They also have farmers currently out of a crop. They also have Big Tobacco that would love to stick it to government. They have them by the balls now with taxes, and they can threaten to leave the country..... they plan to already.

We NEED to wait.

whiteflour said:

North Carolina is about to make some MAJOR changes in MMJ. Like perpetual gardens and REASONABLE licensing fees.

http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/gascripts/BillLookUp/BillLookUp.pl?Session=2009&BillID=H1380



They also have the lowest drug scheduling on marijuana in the US.




Their MMJ model will create a surplus and an affordable product. They also have farmers currently out of a crop. They also have Big Tobacco that would love to stick it to government. They have them by the balls now with taxes, and they can threaten to leave the country..... they plan to already.

We NEED to wait.

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thank you man, finally there are more people with a reasonable mind set. This bill that the government is pushing down our throat is just another way for them to make money.

We, the people, by the constitution, have the unalienable right to make laws that are outside FEDERAL JURISDICTION!!! WE need to make the law that caters to US. Not the top 3% of the wealth holders in the country but the other 93% that make up our work force. . They need to cater to the working man that breaks his back every fucking day, that has to work for his kids, his food, and pay for the comfort of the pigs and dictators that rule this country.

It makes me sick to hear some of you that would rather give your freedom to someone else and decide for you what is safer and wiser.

There once was a very smart man who said " Those who trades their liberty for safety, deserves neither" his name was Benjamin Franklin, one of the men who founded this country. if you say they are wrong you should head to Germany and join the Nazis....oh wait their already in charge of the country.

redivider said:

The technicalities allow the law to evolve with society's needs. Yes, some peoplenwill be hassled, just how a drunk can be hassled. It's not perfect, life rarely is. Vote this down and it'll be years before this can be reconsidered.

And if somebody deserves to make money it's this guy. He's made mmj approachable, he gave us anonymous smokers a face. He's dedicated years to this movement, in public, in front of the cameras, in the feds face, putting himself at risk....not in his den, while the kids take a nap.

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he aint that great if hes taking over the industry like that. wheres the variety of products gonna come from? if hes outsellin everyone, other ppl cant grow productively. in a free market, u need a wide variety of products available to the consumer. so THEY(the consumer) can decide who makes the big bills, based on good customer service, good product, and fair prices.

whiteflour said:

North Carolina is about to make some MAJOR changes in MMJ. Like perpetual gardens and REASONABLE licensing fees.

http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/gascripts/BillLookUp/BillLookUp.pl?Session=2009&BillID=H1380



They also have the lowest drug scheduling on marijuana in the US.




Their MMJ model will create a surplus and an affordable product. They also have farmers currently out of a crop. They also have Big Tobacco that would love to stick it to government. They have them by the balls now with taxes, and they can threaten to leave the country..... they plan to already.

We NEED to wait.

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not THATS a great bill

edit:.....from what ive seen of it

i want to make a pound of cannabutter. i use 2 ounces of dried buds to one pound of butter.

thankfully i'm medical.

I'm not getting into this ... err, how to explain. I dont want to argue yes or no. I just have a question.

Is there a legalization bill that meets the criteria that is actual legalization and not glorified decriminalization? (Not being snarky here) But surely this has to exist. I read these things but I never find this quasi-perfect, unicorn resembling document that we can all point to and say "THIS" about. All I see is the never ending no's. Nothing meets our side's standards. I'm not a lawyer so I dont know how to draft such a thing. Otherwise I would keep firing propositions out on boards until I got it right.

Especially with the resources some have here, there must be something to use as the defacto template of what would make a passable measure.

The concept that most of the world is going to have to wait for the Federal reclassification of cannabis from Schedule I doesn't sound like a plan. (Not supporting yes on 19 in this statement) What happens along the way to force their hand is where I'm stuck. Medical gets thrashed by the prohibitionists quite a bit. I apologize for not citing, but it shows up in their websites and the press frequently. They keep hammering the idea it is a farce and that seems to keep carrying weight in town council meetings and state level legislative meetings. So while medical seemed like a good path, it is waning as much as gaining. I definitely claim waning as we see things like the AZ initiative and other states that severely restrict access and are pretty far from the 215 ideal. Is it just a matter of waiting another 20 years while the FDA and others get it hammered into their heads to have it reclassified? Serious question really. Is that the only real safe path? I keep thinking it may be. But then I'm still stuck on what the pharma industry is wanting to do with cannabis and really fear it just becoming another pill by then. *shrug*

I am a supporter of medical use for preventative health care mind you. I just keep watching even medical getting whittled down where ever it is enacted and am fearing the outcome. 215 seemed good enough. But then it got amended etc. Many municipalities are basically putting on the books that if it is against federal it is against their rules as well. No medical defense basically. Sure the court may side with you but you'll still be raked over the coals.

Agreed, Prop 19 has holes big enough to drive a Mac truck through it. I just want to see what a bullet proof proposition would look like still. This is not a put up or shut up. I just really want to see it. I know for most of us the bill would read like this:

"(preamble and name statement) 1. Complete legalization and declassification from any drug scheduling. 2. Unlimited cultivation and distribution." But I'm sure it has to be more specific than that no?

Just throwing this into the mix because I've never run into a counter proposition. I probably just dont hang out in the right places or something, so apologies if it is something I've missed.

Thanks all.

psari said:

Is it just a matter of waiting another 20 years while the FDA and others get it hammered into their heads to have it reclassified? Serious question really. Is that the only real safe path? I keep thinking it may be. But then I'm still stuck on what the pharma industry is wanting to do with cannabis and really fear it just becoming another pill by then. *shrug*

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That pill has already been around for a decade, and that's what is making this fight so hard. The pharmaceutical companies already have what they want. A monopoly.

My problem is people can't seem to see the taxes are the same kind of taxes that killed tobacco. If you don't think cannabis is the next one out you're not looking at this objectively. This isn't even "legal". It's regulated and taxed. Regulated even more than before.

The tobacco industry fought these exact same taxes. Why? Because they were unfair, unnecessary, limited competition, made research & development for "safer" alternatives more complicated, and forced a decline in QUALITY.

Now I'll admit the tobacco industry has done their fair share of meddling, but they've had a 20 year smear campaign going on against them too. They can't even run an ad in a newspaper to tell their side of the story. You ever wondered why? Maybe because the people would realize its not the tobacco companies........ but the government that keeps forcing stuff down their throat.

Laws that mandate Fire Safe Cigarettes? A paper which is patented and contains Carpet Glue. Even Harvard agrees it only adds more dangerous chemicals. So why use it? Because the non-smokers told us we have to. How many people do you really know who have burnt down a home from smoking? In the 30 years I've been around tobacco, thats a big resounding ZERO. I've seen plenty of carpet holes, never once an open fire. Not saying it won't happen, just highly unlikely.

There is no bulletproof compromise. Why? Because laws are made too complicated these days and will always cater to opposing agendas. That's simply how they get votes, but it's not the only way. I'm not going to vote for this bill, because I've paid my dues in double taxes already. About time for non-smokers to contribute something.

Double Taxation is one of the very reasons this country was founded. Anyone ever hear of the Boston Tea Party? Taxation without Representation? Business Economics? Do they still teach that stuff in school or is everyone just smoking their way through it?

"Pill" reference is referring to new abstracts as Marinol has obviously failed in efficacy. Or new analogues. Basically my premise is that waiting too long into the future will allow the largest lobbying group next to energy to come up with a way to eliminate cannabis in it's natural form as a legal means of administration. Not soon. Ten or fifteen years from now perhaps they make a stronger move if medical cannabis even still is around.

Again, this is not a yes or no stance question. Though your answer appears to be, "There is no bulletproof compromise." That's it then right? There is no example of something better for 2012 drafted and available.

You then further go into implying that my question somehow ignores the very basis of taxation in its current form in the United States. No clue why you went there except that it was inline with the tobacco comparison.

Only other finer point is how to get the media and all the rest of the zealots to stop saying, "Look at the mess in California." It's not an accurate representation of anything. But the confusion created over 215 has had far reaching effects.

Again, all I want to see is the solution in writing that gets the ball moving back in the "right" direction.

So, all good. I'm fine with the stance that this doesn't work and creates more headaches than it solves. Not withstanding excessive opportunity for cannabis to be taxed out of existence.

Anyone else?

We don't have to compromise. We don't need a vote. This can be overturned in court. We have an unfair and unjust law than can simply be OVERTURNED. Get "marijuana plants" off the scheduling and the problem is solved, no compromise.

whiteflour said:

We don't have to compromise. We don't need a vote. This can be overturned in court. We have an unfair and unjust law than can simply be OVERTURNED. Get "marijuana plants" off the scheduling and the problem is solved, no compromise.

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damn right dude, that is another thing we need to put into OUR bill.

The Oakland City Council isn't waiting for November to begin jumbling the legal rules. The Council's Public Safety Committee approved licensing wholesale pot growing Tuesday, 3-to-1.

KALW News reporter Ali Winston reports from that meeting that sponsors say the main reason for the proposal isn't revenue, it's safety (as their name implies): residential electrical fires more than doubled in the city in the past three years, and officials think there's a good connection between that increase and unregulated pot "grow houses."

That said, the committee proposes that applicants pay fees of over $275,000 per operation.

Approved by the committee and full City Council, four large growers would be permitted in the first year.

One grower said he embraced regulation but argued that the plan would force medium- and small-scale cultivators to close down, move, or "go back underground into the dark ages."

The ordinance doesn't yet set a limit on the size of the large cultivators

The plan also would permit Oakland's four licensed dispensaries to sell to retailers across California.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/...entry_id=67931

http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-...nclick_check=1

Last month rich lee purchased a 20 acre plot to build his new growing facilities ...

Scuba said:

damn right dude, that is another thing we need to put into OUR bill.

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I think we could solve this whole economic disaster we're in if instead of voting on new laws, we spent the next ten years repealing all the broken ones. Looking back, It certainly sounds like our forefathers had found the real Utopia.

whiteflour said:

I think we could solve this whole economic disaster we're in if instead of voting on new laws, we spent the next ten years repealing all the broken ones. Looking back, It certainly sounds like our forefathers had found the real Utopia.

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hell ya man, the founding fathers didn't instill the central bank, that happened a decades after their death. it was founded by greedy fat cats I.e. Rothschild and the Rockefeller families.
Which was in fact illegal to begin with, when the idea to found the central banks was put forward to the existing states in the USA, they voted it down by more then half yet the government in charge passed it anyway.

Greased wheels, and fat pockets is what runs this country now, not the people. We have to also get rid of the "Patriot act" which allows the President of the United States to call anyone a domestic terrorist and enables him to, at anytime, enact Marshal Law on this country's people.

psari said:

"Pill" reference is referring to new abstracts as Marinol has obviously failed in efficacy. Or new analogues. Basically my premise is that waiting too long into the future will allow the largest lobbying group next to energy to come up with a way to eliminate cannabis in it's natural form as a legal means of administration. Not soon. Ten or fifteen years from now perhaps they make a stronger move if medical cannabis even still is around.

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And my point is if we wait we can possibly get one of the biggest lobbying groups in this country behind it. Big Tobacco, and they bat .1000 every time. They've fought this fight before. They've got the resources to fight it again, and have a lot more to gain than lose this time. They'd be fighting for a new flourishing market, not trying to maintain a dying one.

If cannabis ends up "taxed and regulated" anything like tobacco is now, it's gone. Taxes on bulk Loose Leaf "roll your own" products just went up to $25/lb. I used to get a pound for about $15. Who's going to buy it? They TAXED loose leaf products out of existence!

whiteflour said:

And my point is if we wait we can possibly get one of the biggest lobbying groups in this country behind it. Big Tobacco, and they bat .1000 every time. They've fought this fight before. They've got the resources to fight it again, and have a lot more to gain than lose this time. They'd be fighting for a new flourishing market, not trying to maintain a dying one.

If cannabis ends up "taxed and regulated" anything like tobacco is now, it's gone. Taxes on bulk Loose Leaf "roll your own" products just went up to $25/lb. I used to get a pound for about $15. Who's going to buy it? They TAXED loose leaf products out of existence!

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I've seen that shit coming for the past two years

It's bullshit, and money motivated of course. The MSA settlement money is divided up on the market share of the big 3 so if they can put all the little guys out of business they get a bigger share.

Did you guys hear, that yesterday, Oakland has passes a contract to 4 large Medical Marijuana "FARMS"!!!!! it was a 5-2 decision.
Which will Wal-Mart the market, they to even get a license to even grow marijuana with this bill. Only these 4 large groups will have permission to grow and sell marijuana for medical clubs all over California.

This is another step to monopolizing the Marijuana market. If any of you still think this bill is for the better, you need to open your eyes and your mind to what you are doing to us. you are doing more harm then good.

fdd2blk said:

The Oakland City Council isn't waiting for November to begin jumbling the legal rules. The Council's Public Safety Committee approved licensing wholesale pot growing Tuesday, 3-to-1.

KALW News reporter Ali Winston reports from that meeting that sponsors say the main reason for the proposal isn't revenue, it's safety (as their name implies): residential electrical fires more than doubled in the city in the past three years, and officials think there's a good connection between that increase and unregulated pot "grow houses."

That said, the committee proposes that applicants pay fees of over $275,000 per operation.

Approved by the committee and full City Council, four large growers would be permitted in the first year.

One grower said he embraced regulation but argued that the plan would force medium- and small-scale cultivators to close down, move, or "go back underground into the dark ages."

The ordinance doesn't yet set a limit on the size of the large cultivators

The plan also would permit Oakland's four licensed dispensaries to sell to retailers across California.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/...entry_id=67931

http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-...nclick_check=1

Last month rich lee purchased a 20 acre plot to build his new growing facilities ...

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Scuba said:

Did you guys hear, that yesterday, Oakland has passes a contract to 4 large Medical Marijuana "FARMS"!!!!! it was a 5-2 decision.
Which will Wal-Mart the market, they to even get a license to even grow marijuana with this bill. Only these 4 large groups will have permission to grow and sell marijuana for medical clubs all over California.

This is another step to monopolizing the Marijuana market. If any of you still think this bill is for the better, you need to open your eyes and your mind to what you are doing to us. you are doing more harm then good.

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it was just posted a few posts ago. are you still reading this thread?

fdd2blk said:

it was just posted a few posts ago. are you still reading this thread?

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srry, this thread moves pretty fast so i wasn't able to see that you posted it. my bad ^_^