Water in Flint and other general problems in our political environ

Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Flaming Pie said:
I read the timeline.
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I don't know what timeline you read. This one seems pretty complete. http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/01/21/us/flint-lead-water-timeline.html?_r=0

The time between when the first results showing high levels of lead in Flint drinking water and when an official reaction was initiated is about one human gestation period. A woman in Flint that got pregnant in February would be exposing her baby to lead the entire pregnancy. Recall that the doctor began her battle in late September to get Snyder's government to take notice. Even then, she was poo-pooed and Snyder was reportedly "briefed" yet another week later.

Do you still think that Snyder sits in his bunker and waits around to be hand fed information without ever checking the news? And are you still OK with that style of governance?

Feb. 18, 2015

104 parts per billion of lead are detected in drinking water at the home of Lee Anne Walters. Ms. Walters notifies the Environmental Protection Agency. Even small amounts of lead can cause lasting health and developmental problems in children. The E.P.A. does not require action until levels reach 15 parts per billion, but public health scientists say there is no safe level for lead in water.

Feb. 27, 2015
Miguel Del Toral, an E.P.A. expert, says that the state was testing the water in a way that could profoundly understate the lead levels.

“Given the very high lead levels found at one home and the preflushing happening in Flint, I’m worried that the whole town may have much higher lead levels than the compliance results indicated.”
Memo from Miguel Del Toral to a state aide

Edit: The timeline contains multiple warnings from tests that show high ppm of lead in water throughout the spring and summer. Skipping to the end of October is when we see Snyder finally take official notice:

Sept. 24-25, 2015
A group of doctors led by Dr. Mona Hanna-Attisha of Hurley Medical Center in Flint urges the city to stop using the Flint River for water after finding high levels of lead in the blood of children. State regulators insist the water is safe.

“D.E.Q. and D.C.H. feel that some in Flint are taking the very sensitive issue of children’s exposure to lead and trying to turn it into a political football claiming the departments are underestimating the impacts on the populations and particularly trying to shift responsibility to the state.”
Mr. Muchmore in an email, referring to the departments of environmental quality and community health

Sept. 28, 2015
The governor is briefed on lead problems in a phone call with the state environment department and federal officials.

Oct. 1, 2015
Flint city officials urges residents to stop drinking water after government epidemiologists validate Dr. Hanna-Attisha’s finding of high lead levels. Mr. Snyder orders the distribution of filters, the testing of water in schools, and the expansion of water and blood testing.
 
bravedave

bravedave

Well-Known Member
Flaming Pie said:
He responded 8 days after the doctors said it wasn't safe.

Try rereading my post.

First the EM said it was safe. Governor listened to the employee.

Then doctors showed it wasn't safe. So he investigated.
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Hammer meets nail.

Bottom line is the comic book heros here have no proof of a cover up but have decided that is what it is. Funny, most every federal crisis during Obama's administration was usually followed by Obama saying he first found out about them by reading the newspaper. That, I'm sure, sat perfectly well with the usual suspects here.

In a any case, you made my day. Ha!
 
bravedave

bravedave

Well-Known Member
You stopped before the good stuff foghog...fixed it.

SEPT. 29: Gov. Rick Snyder pledges to take action in response to the lead levels. It's the first acknowledgment by the state that lead is a problem.

OCT. 2: Snyder announces that the state will spend $1 million to buy water filters and test water in Flint public schools.

OCT. 8: Snyder calls for Flint to go back to using water from Detroit's system again.

OCT. 15: The Michigan Legislature and Snyder approve nearly $9.4 million in aid to Flint, including $6 million to help switch its drinking water back to Detroit. The legislation also includes money for water filters, inspections and lab testing.

NOV. 3: Voters elect newcomer Karen Weaver over incumbent Mayor Dayne Walling amid fallout over the drinking water.

DEC. 29: Snyder accepts the resignation of Department of Environmental Quality Director Dan Wyant and apologizes for what occurred in Flint.

JAN. 5, 2016: Snyder declares a state of emergency in Flint, the same day federal officials confirm that they are investigating.

JAN. 12: Snyder activates the Michigan National Guard to help distribute bottled water and filters in Flint and asks the federal government for help.

JAN. 13: Michigan health officials report an increase in Legionnaires' disease cases during periods over the past two years in the county that includes Flint.

JAN. 14: Snyder asks the administration of President Barack Obama for major disaster declaration and more federal aid.

JAN. 16: Obama signs an emergency declaration and orders federal aid for Flint, authorizing the Federal Emergency Management Agency and the Department of Homeland Security to coordinate relief efforts, but denies the request for a disaster declaration.

JAN. 17: During a Democratic debate, presidential candidate Hillary Clintoncriticizes Snyder for his handling of the water emergency and her rival, U.S. Sen. Bernie Sanders, notes his call for Snyder's resignation. Snyder responds the next day that politicizing the issue doesn't help.

JAN. 19: Snyder devotes most of his annual State of the State speech to the emergency. He pledges to take steps to resolve the crisis.

JAN. 20: Snyder asks Obama to reconsider his denial of a federal disaster declaration. The governor also releases more than 270 pages of emails about the Flint water crisis that show debate over who is to blame and offer insight into the state's response.
 
Flaming Pie

Flaming Pie

Well-Known Member
Snyder wasn't notified until October 28th that there was a problem that needed state assistance. Then the next month, 8 days later, he says they need to switch back to Detroit water and aid the people of flint.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Lead was found and 1st EPA comments were made to the state in February. Let me see, Feb 18... Snyder gets involved on Sept 28. Apparently Snyder doesn't even read the news. At this time it looks like complete incompetence. After the crisis is over we may find out that there was a cover up but it hardly matters. So, OK, he gets the benefit of the doubt and I'll go with he was incompetent and ran an incompetent government. Does that feel better to you?
 
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bravedave

bravedave

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
Lead was found and 1st EPA comments were made to the state in February. Let me see, Feb 18... Snyder gets involved on Sept 28. Apparently Snyder doesn't even read the news. At this time it looks like complete incompetence. After the crisis is over we may find out that there was a cover up but it hardly matter. So, OK, he gets the benefit of the doubt and I'll go with he was incompetent and ran an incompetent government. Does that feel better to you?
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Ahhh nice. So you admit to not being able to answer your own three special questions that you tried to beat FP down with. Lol...and so it goes.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Flaming Pie said:
So everyone EM and anyone doing water tests need to be sacked.
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Just a question, Pie, have you ever worked for a large company? If so, you'd know that decisions at the top affect the workers throughout.

Also, people are expected to keep information within the chain of command. Otherwise they get fired. The decision to switch water supply to the Flint River was made by the heads of MI govt, not the workers within the govt.

It will not be surprising to find out that people within MDEQ, the city water department and department of health knew what was going on and what was wrong but were squelched by the chumps that Snyder appointed over them. Also that they kept quiet because they wanted to keep their jobs This kind of thing happens all the time in large organizations. I'm not saying there is any proof of this yet, I'm just saying that this kind of thing goes on all the time, everywhere in the country and it won't be surprising if this comes to light later on.

Also, once a public employee is deposed in a legal investigation, they will be required to share what their bosses knew, and when. When that happens, and it won't happen for some time, we'll start to get a better picture of what actually happened.

So, no, don't fire the workers, they didn't screw up. In fact the people of Flint need them because the last thing anybody needs is another screw up due to an untrained worker being brought in to replace an experienced one. They are/were taking orders from their bosses, as expected of them.
 
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Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
bravedave said:
Ahhh nice. So you admit to not being able to answer your own three special questions that you tried to beat FP down with. Lol...and so it goes.
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Umm, no, why would I answer my own questions?

How about it Dave, do you feel better knowing that the government was incompetent and not criminal?

Edit: As UB points out a few posts later, that was @londonfog asking the 3 questions. Think, man, think....oh wait sorry, I confused you somebody else. My bad. Have another drink or ten Dave.
 
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S

schuylaar

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
Lead was found and 1st EPA comments were made to the state in February. Let me see, Feb 18... Snyder gets involved on Sept 28. Apparently Snyder doesn't even read the news. At this time it looks like complete incompetence. After the crisis is over we may find out that there was a cover up but it hardly matter. So, OK, he gets the benefit of the doubt and I'll go with he was incompetent and ran an incompetent government. Does that feel better to you?
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A republican government.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
schuylaar said:
A republican government.
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Yes, and I do think this whole problem came up due to right wing ideology, mindless cost cutting in Flint and a political fight with Detroit. Republican partisanship by Michigan political leadership was at its worst here. But...

All that matters at the moment is the crisis in Flint gets addressed.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
UncleBuck said:
londonfog, fogdog, basically the same person.
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Good catch, I had no idea what three questions BD was referring to. Of course he can't keep who said what straight. He can't even remember what he said just one post before. He must have started drinking early again.
 
UncleBuck

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
Good catch, I had no idea what three questions BD was referring to. Of course he can't keep who said what straight. He can't even remember what he said just one post before. He must have started drinking early again.
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i am gonna have a few cups of coffee, and then start the boozefest of cannabis transplants. my least favorite day of the cycle by far.
 
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