Well N A, The Tankless Water Heater is the Bomb!

It can be quite warm or even hot and still work quite well. These things will bring a room to 1500 faster than anything else out there. Pick up a 55g barrel and see what happens. If you need to displace some of the heat, a fan blowing over the open barrel can drop it quite a bit. a radiator of some sort off of ebay is used a bit as well. A steel barrel outside in the winter should do it. Last resort or summer use a chiller. I think just 55 gallons will do it though, unless your doing a big room, Plus you have 12 hours for the water to cool..My first water cooled light worked awsome with 50 gallons and no chiller. Even with 110 water the room stayed at 80. I thought i was going to make it work until I read the warnings on the pump and saw that nost aren't made for temps above 85.

for my setup, I only make 3 trips per cycle. 1st one lasts about 5 weeks. then I go through almost 2 in one month.

thanks budley ---- I think I'm set on a telaire (cap ppm 3)279$ controller and the eccotemp 5l portable water heater 106$ already have a drum just need to swing by HF and grab a pump. should be able to be running for less than 450. which is what the first contoller i lookedat was going to cost me... plus rep to all

Sweet man! Take some pics when you get it all installed!

I have seen some forum posts where guys ran out of the burner into a salvaged heat exchanger/fan and back into the rez. Or put the exchanger on a seperate pump circuit and use a smaller pump. but like I said, my biggest issue was my pump in the hot water. If your pump fails, no co2. If mine fails no light and at the time almost guaranteed catastrophe.

I'm not sure how good HF is on returns but Lowes is easy. i exchange my 1200 gph fountain pump about once a year. Have never had any problems with the pumps. Just like a fresh one!

I think you'll be pretty good with just a barrel though. Even with hot water, your still putting WAY less heat in your room. Watch that humidity though.

Another thing i did was have a propane supply company build me a hose regulator set with 20ft of hose. It cost me 80 bucks but compared to the cheap chinese regulator and 3 ft. hose that came with the unit it seemd like cheap insurance.

mrduke said:

how do you get to the 55 drum thats burried under 2' of dirt? i assume that the water will evaporate over time. and thats gotto be a big ass hole those drums are like 2 foot dia and 3 feet tall so youhave to dig a 2x3x4 hole. my back already hurts just thinking about it.

what about adding a duct booster to the vent pipe??

hell maybe I'm making this way harder then it needs to be.....but I'm fuckin laaaaazzzzzyyy

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if the system is closed you wont lose anywater BUTa hose coming out of the drum to the surface allows a refill. a back hoe makes the back not work as hard. once the work is done, its pretty fucking lazy. the ground acts as a geothermal heat sinc..

thats a good point about the returns maybe i'll look and see what i can get from them or the homo depot. But I'm going with a 55g drumthat i'll put outside which will be on the shady side of the house. I think it will be fine if i need to add a block of ice in a real hot spell thats no biggie

yeah, shade that bad boy, maybe even a drum inside a slightly bigger drum (like people do with plants in pot outdoors).. I guess it depends on how hot it gets where your at, if your in the AK I bet that shit matters in reverse like freezing in the winter..

good luck

Doyou really think it uses 50 gal a day? If you have a 50 gal barrell seems like the water would be really hot after a days use. Would be nice to know how much water they really use in a day on an average sized room like yours. 20-30 gal a day wouldnt be a big deal. Where I live it is all spring water etc, so it would go back to water supply. Wonder if there is a way to measure how much water it is using.

I just dug a fucking hole in the ground. Took me probably an hour. The top of the drum is level with the ground. I siphon off air into my veg tent so my system runs a little more than normal but I would say that the system uses AT LEAST 50 gallons a night. The water gets between ooh thats kind of warm to damn thats pretty hot. You can actually control how fast the water is moving through the heater (ergo..how hot do you want your shower to be). Mine is probably right in the middle in terms of settings. If I have it turned all the way up then I have some problems with the system triggering and turning on. When I grasp the rubber hose coming out of the heater it is HOT. Like burn your testicles hot.

I only checked my water once near the end of the cycle and the drum was pretty damn warm. Sping water system would be ideal. in that case you would need to bury a drum or something that is perforated and wrapped in landscape fabric to allow the spring water to seep into it. Then pump from there.

legallyflying said:

Yeah, your supposed to vent them, but ummm venting the co2 out of the room would kind of defeat the purpose don't cha think? I'm telling you dude, they are the same damn things. "special modifications" my ass. Like what? Water movement turns the burner on. You can adjust the intensity of the burner and you can adjust the water flow. The flame is entirely blue. What could they have possibly changed?

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I thought that minimal CO production was the nominal operation for gas combustion and CO over production would only occur during some sort of failure condition. But, I can't find anything to back this up and am certainly not an expert on gas burning appliances. So, don't take this as me thinking you are doing anything wrong.

I'm definitely not trying to question what you've done by not venting the unit. I'd be worried about CO all of the time, but I'm a worrier. You've got your CO alarm so at least if something ever goes awry, you'll know about it. I, also, can't find much in the way of differences between a CO2 generator and a tankless water heater as far as the combustion system goes.

I sure do applaud your setup with a closed loop and buried reservoir. Way to go.

Well here is the document that I read prior to the un-vented installation. ... A $50 co sensor put all my fears to rest. Not a peep from it yet. Not even 1 PPM.

1.4.3 Emissions3-4
The emissions from natural gas-fired boilers and furnaces include nitrogen oxides (NOx), carbon
monoxide (CO), and carbon dioxide (CO2), methane (CH4), nitrous oxide (N2O), volatile organic
compounds (VOCs), trace amounts of sulfur dioxide (SO2), and particulate matter (PM).

Nitrogen Oxides -
Nitrogen oxides formation occurs by three fundamentally different mechanisms. The principal
mechanism of NOx formation in natural gas combustion is thermal NOx. The thermal NOx mechanism
occurs through the thermal dissociation and subsequent reaction of nitrogen (N2) and oxygen (O2)
molecules in the combustion air. Most NOx formed through the thermal NOx mechanism occurs in the high
temperature flame zone near the burners. The formation of thermal NOx is affected by three furnace-zone
factors: (1) oxygen concentration, (2) peak temperature, and (3) time of exposure at peak temperature. As
these three factors increase, NOx emission levels increase. The emission trends due to changes in these
factors are fairly consistent for all types of natural gas-fired boilers and furnaces. Emission levels vary
considerably with the type and size of combustor and with operating conditions (e.g., combustion air
temperature, volumetric heat release rate, load, and excess oxygen level).

The second mechanism of NOx formation, called prompt NOx, occurs through early reactions of
nitrogen molecules in the combustion air and hydrocarbon radicals from the fuel. Prompt NOx reactions
occur within the flame and are usually negligible when compared to the amount of NOx formed through the
thermal NOx mechanism. However, prompt NOx levels may become significant with ultra-low-NOx
burners.

The third mechanism of NOx formation, called fuel NOx, stems from the evolution and reaction of
fuel-bound nitrogen compounds with oxygen. Due to the characteristically low fuel nitrogen content of
natural gas, NOx formation through the fuel NOx mechanism is insignificant.

Carbon Monoxide -
The rate of CO emissions from boilers depends on the efficiency of natural gas combustion.
Improperly tuned boilers and boilers operating at off-design levels decrease combustion efficiency resulting
in increased CO emissions. In some cases, the addition of NOx control systems such as low NOx burners
and flue gas recirculation (FGR) may also reduce combustion efficiency, resulting in higher CO emissions
relative to uncontrolled boilers.

Volatile Organic Compounds -
The rate of VOC emissions from boilers and furnaces also depends on combustion efficiency.
VOC emissions are minimized by combustion practices that promote high combustion temperatures, long
residence times at those temperatures, and turbulent mixing of fuel and combustion air. Trace amounts of
VOC species in the natural gas fuel (e.g., formaldehyde and benzene) may also contribute to VOC
emissions if they are not completely combusted in the boiler.

Sulfur Oxides -
Emissions of SO2 from natural gas-fired boilers are low because pipeline quality natural gas
typically has sulfur levels of 2,000 grains per million cubic feet. However, sulfur-containing odorants are
added to natural gas for detecting leaks, leading to small amounts of SO2 emissions. Boilers combusting
unprocessed natural gas may have higher SO2 emissions due to higher levels of sulfur in the natural gas.
For these units, a sulfur mass balance should be used to determine SO2 emissions.
7/98 External Combustion Sources 1.4-3

Particulate Matter -
Because natural gas is a gaseous fuel, filterable PM emissions are typically low. Particulate
matter from natural gas combustion has been estimated to be less than 1 micrometer in size and has
filterable and condensable fractions. Particulate matter in natural gas combustion are usually larger
molecular weight hydrocarbons that are not fully combusted. Increased PM emissions may result from
poor air/fuel mixing or maintenance problems.

Greenhouse Gases -6-9
CO2, CH4, and N2O emissions are all produced during natural gas combustion. In properly tuned
boilers, nearly all of the fuel carbon (99.9 percent) in natural gas is converted to CO2 during the
combustion process. This conversion is relatively independent of boiler or combustor type. Fuel carbon
not converted to CO2 results in CH4, CO, and/or VOC emissions and is due to incomplete combustion.
Even in boilers operating with poor combustion efficiency, the amount of CH4, CO, and VOC produced is
insignificant compared to CO2 levels.
Formation of N2O during the combustion process is affected by two furnace-zone factors. N2O
emissions are minimized when combustion temperatures are kept high (above 1475oF) and excess oxygen is
kept to a minimum (less than 1 percent).
Methane emissions are highest during low-temperature combustion or incomplete combustion, such
as the start-up or shut-down cycle for boilers. Typically, conditions that favor formation of N2O also favor
emissions of methane.

Thank you, sir, for setting the issue to rest for me. I expected no less.

O.K guys the questions keep coming. As i stand i have a digigro controller on the way with a eccotemp 5l water heater following close behind. By the way thank you budley for the recommendation on the digigro, the guys there seam to be top notch even offered to sell me a cap ppm-3 for the same price 279 shipped.
Now i just have to reconfigure the room to adapt to a sealed environment. i have a window style AC which i assume will loose some Co2 but whatever I'm gonna need it. So do i need to seal up both of my intakes???? I want to be able to vent fresh air in like once an hour for 15 minutes through the night, Or do i should i just run no vents??the lights are all sealed pretty well, but I'm going to touch that up a bit when i get there. I have panda film on the walls but if I run the exhaust without at least one 6" vent i will pull it right off the wall. what do i do?

There is absolutely positively no reason to vent your room.
Period.

That should clear things up.

Ps don't sweat the window unit. I have the same thing going on.

mrduke said:

O.K guys the questions keep coming. As i stand i have a digigro controller on the way with a eccotemp 5l water heater following close behind. By the way thank you budley for the recommendation on the digigro, the guys there seam to be top notch even offered to sell me a cap ppm-3 for the same price 279 shipped.
Now i just have to reconfigure the room to adapt to a sealed environment. i have a window style AC which i assume will loose some Co2 but whatever I'm gonna need it. So do i need to seal up both of my intakes???? I want to be able to vent fresh air in like once an hour for 15 minutes through the night, Or do i should i just run no vents??the lights are all sealed pretty well, but I'm going to touch that up a bit when i get there. I have panda film on the walls but if I run the exhaust without at least one 6" vent i will pull it right off the wall. what do i do?

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Glad, they hooked you up. The guy there has given me support for things they don't even sell.

I use a window unit and don't believe it looses much if any.

You can vent at night for humidity control, but a dehuey is probably in your future anyway! Your putting in the effort, you may as well enjoy ALL of the benefits of going sealed.

" I have panda film on the walls but if I run the exhaust without at least one 6" vent i will pull it right off the wall. what do i do?"

You can buy a self closing vent, but again......

thanks guys thats kinda what i thought anyways. Andi alreadyhave a dehu. so should be set once it all here to rock in roll

FUCK YEAH!!!!!!!!!!

Well every thing came in the mail on monday and I finally got my lazy ass around to installing it late last night. So its like this a Harbor freight 1/6 hp sump pump feeding a Ecotemp 5L water heater ran by a digigro co2 controller. Once it was all hooked up and tested for leaks, I gave her a test run. This shit is the real deal no doubt. my ambeiant co level is about 430 ppm. So on goes the heater it fires right up and runs for less then 2 minutes and shuts off when co2 level reaches 1500, but continues to climb to 1700+. As it is now my room isn't sealled at all I just turned off the exhaust but left the vents open, tonight I'll fix those. the Co2 level falls pretty quick with them open, with a bit of duct tape and some spray foam I should be good to go. If i can find a camera I'll get up a few pics.

Thanks again to everyone who has helped and mostly to Leagally Flying for show people the light

Nice! They are pretty fucking dope. And thanks to you sir for restoring my faith that there are actually serious growers on this site that can see the advantages of a set up, spend the cash, and do it right. I was half worried this thread would degenerate into discussion about using sugar and yeast to make co2.

You will REALLY see the advantage of a sealed room this summer. No warm intake air, just set the AC and forget about it. A nice big dehu will keep it dry and warm at night. Best of all, your going to shit yourself when you see what 85 degrees and 1500 ppm does to a two-three week old plant. Prepare to be shocked every morning!

hey LF i was just wondering how often does yours run? My room is about the same size as yours it 11x7x7, and last night it was turning on ever 15 minutes or so. Now i know my room is not perfectly SEALED but it looks to be pretty close, no major holes, the walls are wrapped in panda which has some staple holes. does it matter where the controller is mounted? mine isabout a foot below the gen. and 2 feet to the side, should i move it further away? would that help get a truer co2 reading, there are plenty of fans moving the air around.

Well logic dictates that the position of the sensor would mostly affect how accurate the ppm's are but shouldn't affect the cycling time. The co2 is rising with the heat of the gen and then gets circulated by the fans. Having your controller below and adjacent would "delay" the time it takes for the co2 to reach the controller (in theory) as the gas has to expand and move around the room before making it's way to the sensor. The bigger the delay between production and sensing, the more it's going to climb after shutting off. As long as your only climbing around 200 I think your fine.

My sensor is mounted at the same height but in the other side of the room. Initially I would climb 400 ppm after shut down so I lowered the flame. This helped but there was still a big climb. So then I just hung a fan from the ceiling about 2 feet from the gen, pointing at the sensor. This helped quite a bit.

You could try turning down the ppm to 1300. Then you will be in the 1200-1500 range which is just dandy. I think you would have to be at 90 and LOTS of light to really see an advantage of higher than 1500. Like nutrients, having more doesn't trigger more uptake. But every 15 seems about right. My room is surgically sealed (I'm actually pulling in co2 laden air into my adjacent veg tent- which works pretty damn well) and there is a filtered passive outdoor air intake in my flower room to facilitate air movement into the veg area.

This situation helps decrease night temps in full on mega flower when I have both dehumidifiers running, and helps keep nighttime temps up in the veg tent as my tent is just panda in the basement. My gen cycles about 2 min (max) about every 10.

I bet that after watching that ppm monitor you now understand how difficult it would be to get it right using a timer or yeast bucket or piping cow farts into your room. How are your temps in the sealed situation? Make sure you are calibrating your air con set temperature to your canopy temp. With my AC set at 81, my canopy stays at 85