What are my leaves trying to tell me pointing down?

singlecoiled said:

Yep, I'm surprised so many people use it but apparently its great stuff. Many use it all the way to harvest.

I'll be cutting it down quite a bit and may or may not use bloom prodeucts this grow.

Click to expand...

Foliage Pro is great stuff in veg. I go back to GH Flora series for flower weeks 3 - finish. I just tried FP for flower since I'd read people have good luck with it all the way through but it was too much N and too little K and P for my table. So I flushed and went back to my usual GH Flora and it will turn around in a week or so.

singlecoiled said:

Thanks, without a proper soil test I'm at a loss on how to test PH and runoff PH is the only real clue I have. I can't get soil out of the root zone to test, and slurry tests of the top soil dont give much information either.

I'm with you on the watering. All of my prevoius grows were watered with a PH of 6.0-6.5 and over time the soil became acidic. So this grow, I am watering RO water with a PH at around 7.0 without PH adjustment. My soil PH might be a little too high, but I'm betting it drops a bit soon. If I come down from 7.0 to 6.5 or so, I'm hoping things stay in a healthy grow range.

This grow will probably be the straw that broke the camels back for me if flower gets rough, I'm spending way too much of my time troubleshooting without a known fix. Its all hit and miss and stabbing in the dark !

Click to expand...

Sounds good man. And don't give up. You're totally getting it,

curious2garden said:

Foliage Pro is great stuff in veg. I go back to GH Flora series for flower weeks 3 - finish. I just tried FP for flower since I'd read people have good luck with it all the way through but it was too much N and too little K and P for my table. So I flushed and went back to my usual GH Flora and it will turn around in a week or so.

Click to expand...

Very cool, glad to hear other know where I'm coming from. Foliage Pro is a little high in Nitrogen, looking at the numbers, its doesnt really make sense (9-3-6) but people swear by it. With my newbie knowledge, Dynagrow grow (7-9-5) seems to have better numbers, but I'm following the advice of many highly skilled growers...

I'll probably go back to a lower dose of Foliage Pro mixed with Bloom (easy on the bloom!) as I need the macronutrients.

Thanks much for the help, its good to talk to someone that's used FP and moved to other nutrients. Ive already tried the Fox Farm Trio and moved to Dynagrow for simplicity and to learn how to use nutrients. I dont think its the brand or quality of the nutrients as much as the skill of grower and an understanding of what a plant needs. IMO, they are all very similar, NPK is NPK right? How much better can a fancy label make it?

PadawanWarrior said:

Sounds good man. And don't give up. You're totally getting it,

Click to expand...

Thanks man, I really appreciate the encouragement. Watch in the next few weeks if you'd like. We'll see how good/bad it gets...I'm afraid to look because I know I over watered last night... What a Dumb ass I am !

Side note: I bought a scale to weigh my plant water levels and consumption. (works great) but I'm winging it this grow because the new pot wont fit on my scale.... It's hard to know how wet it is deep in the root zone, and I'm judging by weight alone. (when the soil feels light, I water)....

Here is what I dont want !!!! (roasted due to low PH and too much bloom nutrients)... Still got some bud though, just a bit rough....

She perked up after last nights watering, I used half the water I've been using...... Leaf tips still down a bit but they are starting to pray a bit.

I think this is a classic case of a newbie that doesnt know how to water.. Its very possible that I'm both over watering and underwatering !

Now its time to smoke a bowl, thanks for listening all, I know I talk too much and take my hobbies way too seriously. (I'll shut up now)

singlecoiled said:

She perked up after last nights watering, I used half the water I've been using...... Leaf tips still down a bit but they are starting to pray a bit.

I think this is a classic case of a newbie that doesnt know how to water.. Its very possible that I'm both over watering and underwatering !

Now its time to smoke a bowl, thanks for listening all, I know I talk too much and take my hobbies way too seriously. (I'll shut up now)

View attachment 5240131

Click to expand...

Did you add the nutes?

singlecoiled said:

Thanks, I'm pretty sure I'm overwatering. I watered last night after four days and the plant is choking bad now, lets hope I can get her to dry out before any serious damage starts. I'm using double the amount of soil this grow (7 gallons vs 3) and I reduced the Veg time on this plant to 5 weeks vs 8. I'm pretty sure its too much water and soil for such a small plant.. ( I kept her small with less Veg time).

Ohh well, I already know this grow will get very rough soon, almost guaranteed, but that's OK. I'll still get some good smoke and someday I'll make it through flower healthy. Not this grow !

When you say week 6 it does down hill. In what way? Yellowing leaves? Rust spots? I suspect you might be introducing bloom feed too soon.

When do you introduce bloom feed? And what NPK ratio is it?


All three of my previous grows developed rust spots, yellowing of leaves, etc... I lost almost all my fan leaves at harvest time, but the buds were hanging in there.

So, I've done tons of reading. I'm using very little bloom this grow. Its half Foliage Pro and Half Bloom, although I may be using bloom nutrients very lightly. I've been following Uncle Ben's and the President of Dynagrows advice when they say bloom products are not needed..(The president of Dynagrow says Bloom nutrients are not needed and they sell them only because people THINK they need them,.... I may still add a little, but the days of Dumping Cha-Ching, Beastie Bloomz, etc... are done. I had hoped moving away from bloom nutrients woud help me in week 6...

Dyna grow feeding chart below is what I'm loosely following at 1/2 recommended strength,

Picture below is my last two failures, it doensnt look as bad as it was as I cut many of the dead and dying leaves off before this picture was taken.

Click to expand...

So those pictures were from when you used the bloom additives? And you haven’t done a grow of just veg/bloom feed mixed?

If so I think you’ll fair better this round. Too much P causes lots of issues in weed.

Keep mixing the veg and bloom at 50/50 ratio.

Looking at the feed chart the ppms are quite low. If you’re feeding half of that then it could be under feeding.

Simple rule of thumb. If the tops go funky it’s too much food. If the lowest/oldest leaves yellow/brown etc it’s hungry.

Keep posting around here and folk will help you out

PadawanWarrior said:

Did you add the nutes?

Click to expand...

No nutes, just a light watering. I'll probably water one more time without nutes just to make sure my N isnt too high.

Nutty sKunK said:

So those pictures were from when you used the bloom additives? And you haven’t done a grow of just veg/bloom feed mixed?

If so I think you’ll fair better this round. Too much P causes lots of issues in weed.

Keep mixing the veg and bloom at 50/50 ratio.

Looking at the feed chart the ppms are quite low. If you’re feeding half of that then it could be under feeding.

Simple rule of thumb. If the tops go funky it’s too much food. If the lowest/oldest leaves yellow/brown etc it’s hungry.

Keep posting around here and folk will help you out

Click to expand...

Simple rule of thumb. If the tops go funky it’s too much food. If the lowest/oldest leaves yellow/brown etc it’s hungry.

This is a great rule of thumb that I've never seen, Thanks !

So those pictures were from when you used the bloom additives? And you haven’t done a grow of just veg/bloom feed mixed?

Yes, the picture I posted of my nutrient fried plant was fed bloom nutrients and this is my first grow going lightly with them. In fact, I went all the way using Open Sesame, Beastie Bloomz, and Cha-ching on top of the Fox farm trio (which included bloom nutes in Tiger Bloom). After much reading I noticed that many long time growers advised against bloom nutrients and decided to give it try this grow. (moving to Dynagrow)

Keep mixing the veg and bloom at 50/50 ratio.

Thanks, will do. I dont have a PPM pen yet, but thanks much for the advice on the Dynagrow feed schedule. From what you've said, the top leaf tips are funky, the bottom leaves are fine. Even though I'm only at half doseage, I think I've over done it (or under done it)... My leaf tips arent burned, so thats a good sign. My past three grows showed nutrient excess in the tips.... I'll increase the doseage 1/2 FP and Bloom next feeding and see what the leaf tips tell me.


So here I am now...

I might be overwatering, I might be underwatering

I might be overfeeding, I might be underfeeding....

This hobby can give you a headache fast!

singlecoiled said:

Simple rule of thumb. If the tops go funky it’s too much food. If the lowest/oldest leaves yellow/brown etc it’s hungry.

This is a great rule of thumb that I've never seen, Thanks !

So those pictures were from when you used the bloom additives? And you haven’t done a grow of just veg/bloom feed mixed?

Yes, the picture I posted of my nutrient fried plant was fed bloom nutrients and this is my first grow going lightly with them. In fact, I went all the way using Open Sesame, Beastie Bloomz, and Cha-ching on top of the Fox farm trio (which included bloom nutes in Tiger Bloom). After much reading I noticed that many long time growers advised against bloom nutrients and decided to give it try this grow. (moving to Dynagrow)

Keep mixing the veg and bloom at 50/50 ratio.

Thanks, will do. I dont have a PPM pen yet, but thanks much for the advice on the Dynagrow feed schedule. From what you've said, the top leaf tips are funky, the bottom leaves are fine. Even though I'm only at half doseage, I think I've over done it (or under done it)... My leaf tips arent burned, so thats a good sign. My past three grows showed nutrient excess in the tips.... I'll increase the doseage 1/2 FP and Bloom next feeding and see what the leaf tips tell me.


So here I am now...

I might be overwatering, I might be underwatering

I might be overfeeding, I might be underfeeding....

This hobby can give you a headache fast!

Click to expand...

The most recent pics you posted look fine apart from the slight droop.

Keep the feed you are giving now. The bottom leaves will tell you when to up the feed. usually every week you increase the food a little as a rough guide until the last 2 weeks when you taper off

Nutty sKunK said:

The most recent pics you posted look fine apart from the slight droop.

Keep the feed you are giving now. The bottom leaves will tell you when to up the feed. usually every week you increase the food a little as a rough guide until the last 2 weeks when you taper off

Click to expand...

This is a huge help, thanks so much. I hate to starve them now that I'm cautious with nutrients, especially during mid flower...Your advice to gradually increase the feed is listed in notes I posted in my journal (below if interested in reading)

I'm feeding once a week, normally one plain watering and then a feed (about 3-4 days until the soil dries)

Just because I smoke weed doesnt mean I'm not a geek... Here is my grow journal. I keep these for all my grows to learn from...

Current Journal. (I doubt anyone will read it, but I thought I'd share) There are notes attached on the bottom that I've taken from readings on the internet as well.


______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


Northern Lights 3:

Gen Hydroponics PH test--- Yellow PH=6.0 Green =7.0

Example = Major event such as topping, Pistols showing etc...

Example= Notes, pests, deficiencies etc..


Germination:
10/14- Seed placed into damp happy frog soil in a pill container. (No pete pellet this grow)
10/18- Popped. Leaves arent out yet, but I'll put it under light tonight. (for warmth). Watered lightly with RO water and a few drops Hydrogen Peroxide.


Week 1:
10/19- Life begins ! We have two starter leaves and the first true leaves showing. It's smaller than most of my geminated seeds but we'll see if she gains size soon. Light height, 25 inches, 60% power per spiderfarmer recommendation. Timer set to 18/6 lights off 5:00-11:00.
10/22- W Pill bottle is very small and has little soil. Watered to drainage with RO water and a little Great White (mixed into water). Around 2 TBS with slight drainage. Fan running dierctly on plant to help strengthen stem.
10/24- WF 1/10th Protekt, 1/16th FP. (directions called for 1.25 FP and 2.5 Protekt) and two drops PH down, PH Yellow/Green 6.5?
10/25- Transplanted to green pot. The pill bottle was not showing roots as much as I thought and the soil was too wet (it crumbled). Stem burried a few inches. I added 1/8th tsp Great White but did not water as the soil from the pill bottle was very wet. I'd wait two days to water and let her dry out.

Week 2: Twisty leaves, plant looks like it struggling.
10/27- W 1 cup RO water, PH bright yellow, .4ML Calmag. Plant was looking very thirsty.
10/28- Note: the leaves appeared to need watering (on the 27th) , but I think I may have overwatered and transplanted too early. Let the seedling get more roots in a small container before transplanting next time and go easy with the water and nutes ! I'm afraid to look, we'll peak tommorrow.
10/29- Wt 13.9 ozs, her leaves are a bit twisted and rough but she is growing fast ! I would water tommorow evening.
10/30- W 1/16th Protekt, 1/16th Calmag, PH yellow, slight green. (i cup water to slight runoff). Wt 14 oz dry, 20 oz after watering. The water PH seemed a bit low on the drainage, yellow/slight orange. I would water with a 6.5 PH or higher and watch runoff.

Week 3: (overwatering, potential root rot or pest)
11/2- W Wt 14 oz, 1 cup plan RO water, nothing added, didnt PH. Run-off PH seemed a bit low last watering, I'm trying something neutral for non feed days. Plant leaves are still twisted and off looking pointing down.
11/3- Wt 18 ozs.
11/5- Wt. 14.7 ozs.
11/6-OK, it may be a pest, but all signs also indicate overwatering and potentially root rot. For now since I cannot locate pests, I will assume that I have overwatered and will try to correct. At the moment, I am letting the plant dry out.
Notes:
1. I transplanted way too early and too wet. Next grow, let the plant fill the starter container with roots before transplant.
2. I transplanted too wet.
3. The soil seems compacted and my bet is low oxyegen at the roots.
4. Dont use the green container next grow. Drainage is poor, soil becomes compacted.
5. Water less, once cup in this container seems to be too much.

11/6- Wt. 12.7 ozs. Topped to the third node.


11/7- Wt. 11.7
11/8- WF Wt. 11.5 2.5 Pro, 2.5 FP, .25 Mag Pro (divided down) PH light green. Watered with slightly less than 1 cup, light drainage, was a light watering, soil still a bit dry.

Week 4: (recover time?)
11/9- Wt. 14.7 (one day after watering). Leaves are praying nicely even though they had a rough start. Light at 70% at seedling height. (25 + inches). Plant seems to be lightly watered. Careful overwatering fox farm next time until roots are well established ! Will leave all fan leaves on until the two main chutes produce some leaves.
11/11- W Wt 11.6 ozs. Plain 1 cup RO water PH light green
11/12- Wt 14.6
11/13- Wt. 12.8 Trained the two new chutes down, gently.
11/14- W Wt 11.9 (with ties) Flushed with one full watering can PH blue green with around 20 oz of runnoff. Runnoff tested at light green, tap water blue, definately pulled the PH down running through the soil. Low soil PH ? Too much Calmag/ nutrients? We'll see how she bounces back. Water from runnoff was cloudy.
11/15- Wt. 17.9
Week 5: ( Manifold- 3 nodes start week 5)

11/16- LST and HST, chopped off all lower growth except the third node chutes ( up to 6 now)
11/17- WF Wt 12.5 (without clips) Fed slighly less than 1/16th tsp (.31ML) of Protekt and FP to two cups water (fed only one cup). One drop Mag Pro, Ph light green, no yellow, no blue. Plant trained with extra tie wraps to keep her low and even.
11/19- W 1 cup RO water with BTI. I'm seeing flies, just to be safe. Topped to the third node on the side branches, defoliage fan leaves in middle of plant.
11/21- Transplant into Air pot. (3 gallons soil, .75 gallon Worm Castings, .75 gallon perlite, 2.5TBS Mycos to root zone, .5 TBS Dolomite lime. Watered lightly at the plant base and around. Will weigh in a day or two to get a "moist" weight.
11/22- Pruned second node (middle) on both ends, leaving 1 and 3.

Week 6: Topping complete: 12/12 soon....
11/25- Pruned fan leaves leaving only the 8 chutes to grow. Added soil to reduce stem length.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Week 1: Pre Flower
11/26 (Sat)- 12/12 Flip, all 8 chutes trained down gently.
11/27- WF 1/2 of low 2.5ml recommnded by Dynagrow. I used 1/16th tsp FP only in 1/4 gallon RO water, PH light green slightly yellow. No protekt this go around. This is a very light feeding to see how the plant responds.
11/30- Trained down lightly.
12/1- WF .62ML FP, 1/16th Protekt, 1/32 magpro. 4 cups of water PH light green. Runoff captured PH strong yellow.... keep feeding green..

Week 2: Pre Flower
12/5- Watered plain RO water one full watering can (1/2 gallon), PH green no adjustments. Will need a saucer, this soil and pot drains almost too well ! Plant is stretching and going nuts after watering.
12/7- Trained lightly, added another guide to pull middle chutes away from sides. HST, chopped off remaining lower growth, no more chopping!
12/8- WF- 1/2 gallon, .62 ML Protekt, .31 ML FP, .31 Bloom, 1/16th tsp Mag Pro, PH light green no up or down added. Sprinkled Mycos and Great White on soil before watering. (above main root ball) PH in runnoff measure light green. Feeding was exactly half the Dynagrow chart recommendation.

Week 3: Flower
12/11- W 1/2 gallon slight runnoff. Runoff tested bright yellow (low) keep an eye on runoff PH and water with hight PH mix for now.
12/12- Start of pistols showing.

12/15- WF PH around 7.5-8 (green slight blue) (half dose no bloom double FP) 1.25 Pro, 1.25 FP, 1/16 tsp Mag Pro. 1/2 gallon. Runnoff PH Bright yellow?---


Week 4: Flower

12/19- W 1 can RO water plain. Runoff water collected in saucer PH'd light green. PH may be too high....

A good Nirvana NL journal went 11 weeks flower....


Great mainlining/manifold guide link below: !

Feed Cheat Sheet:
1 gallon = 16 cups.
Dyna Grow week 3: (full dose) 2.5 ML Protekt, 2.5 ML FP, .25 MagPro.

2.5 ml/16 = .15 ml (1/32ths tsp = .15 ml)
5 ml/ 16= .31 (1/16th tsp)
.25 ml /16 = .015 ml

Continued from above----1000 word limit..

Dyna Grow stuff !

Here is an interview with the president of Dyna-Grow.

Rather than listen to forum "experts" with more experience posting than knowledge of growing here is the owner of a fertilizer company telling the truth about nutes and marijuana.

You can throw away the bloom bottle. He only produced that due to customer demand. Not plants demand. And he admits it here.

I had to learn the hard way about bloom. Kept reducing and reducing but never eliminated it until I got into a convo with another member here. His comments matched my results but I still couldn't believe that the whole industry pushes the wrong balances. It's worse than propaganda and the simple fact all the wrong ratios have names like bloom or boosters we all think we need it. Or at least I did. I'm done with bloom.

As a beginner who wouldn't want to flower without a bloom product? And holy shit if I could boost that blossom wouldn't that be great ! But that's not what they do like dude said some could be toxic.

Dyna Gro is highly concentrated so less is more. If you are growing in coco I'll post a recommended feed chart below. This feed chart was created by Costa Mesa Steve, so I want to give credit where it's deserved. His Feed Chart was developed using Growmore Nutrients, however it works perfectly for Dyna Gro.

Just one other thing to note - the highest my PPM's ever go are about 800, and even then there are only a few strains that can routinely feed that heavy in my experience. You'll want to gradually work your way up.

By the way - when you add 5ML calmag to your RO water it's going to increase the PPM's significantly so don't be scared of that. Follow what I have down below and I can damn near guarantee you'll be really successful with DG. Once you get comfortable then you can start tweaking things.

**I'm assuming you are using R/O water**
If you are using tap water then cut the Calmag down to 2.5ML or even 0 depending on your tap water PPM's.

**If using coco then feed this every watering**
**If using soil then feed this recipe 1x per week, with normal watering in between of just 5ML calmag and RO water + 2.5ML of Recharge**

Week 1 Veg
2ML Foliage Pro
5ML Calmag (always add 2nd)
2.5ML Protekt (always add first)
2.5ML Recharge (go buy this stuff, it's worth it's weight in gold)

Week 2 Veg
2ML Foliage Pro
5ML Calmag
2.5ML Protekt
2.5ML Recharge

Week 3 Veg
3ML Foliage Pro
5ML Calmag
5ML Protekt
2.5ML Recharge

Week 4, Week 5, & Week 6 Veg
4ML Foliage Pro
5ML Calmag
5ML Protekt
2.5ML Recharge

Week 1 Flower
4ML Foliage Pro
5ML Calmag
5ML Protekt
2.5ML Recharge

Week 2 Flower
5ML Foliage Pro
5ML Calmag
5ML Protekt
2.5ML Recharge

Week 3 Flower
6ML Foliage Pro
5ML Calmag
2.5ML Protekt (last week using Protekt)
2.5ML Recharge

Week 4, Week 5, Week 6, & Week 7 Flower
6ML Foliage Pro
5ML Calmag
2.5ML Recharge

Week 8
2.5ML Recharge



Notes taken from internet forums


I've have been using DG for years. Don't use their feed schedule. I like grow and foliage pro as well as protekt. Ive stopped using mag pro and as time has gone on I've used less and less bloom. Use what your plants need not what a feed schedule tells you. I found that you need to use grow or foliage pro through the stretch. I wouldn't touch bloom until completion of the 3rd week of flower. At this point I'd still be mixing my nutes the same way I always have with grow or foliage pro (300ppm). Then each week I'd slowly raise that PPM with bloom. I'd never exceed 500 ppm. I'd reach 500 ppm during the 5th week and I'd maintain 500 ppm through about week 8. Then I'd start decreasing the bloom to decrease the PPM to desired level. I don't flush just slowly decrease ppms.

I'm surprised you're not complaining about yellow leaves. If you follow their feed schedule and start bloom day 1 of 12/12 generally yellowing leaves sets in prior to week 4. I learned plants need more N than most bloom products provide. It took a while and plenty of tweaking. But I figured it out and was able to keep nice healthy plants through completion.

A few months ago I started a convo with another grower. Who I don't know personally. But I've been seeing his posts for years and from what I've read I felt this guy makes sense and he's got decades under his belt for experience. He's explained to me that the issue I was facing wasn't only lack of N. But there's to much P also. That excess P supposedly makes it harder for the plants to get N. In other words he believes although my plants were healthy I really hadn't fixed the problem. I was only masking it by my increased N.

It sure seems logical so logical I decided to run a test. I used jacks classic citrus on some plants and on the others foliage pro and NO BLOOM. I'm sorry to say that I've had problems. My test included 3 strains. One of which I've had most leaves turn yellow with both nutes. I should have raised the PPM earlier than I did. I could go back to mixing grow or foliage pro with bloom. But even though I fucked up this batch I think it's all on me and I'm going down the right path. So I'm going to run my next set with jacks classic only and I'm going to raise my PPMs as I have in the past.

Since both these sets of nutes have more N than by old combo of grow and bloom I didn't think I'd have to adjust my PPM as much as I have in the past. My take away from this test is that was a bad assumption. So I expect much better results next time.

Foliage pro is stronger than grow so it will take less to get the job done. Those feed schedules usually run strong. Never use them. Start out with less than they say and raise it if more is needed. In veg I'd give 3 ml a gallon of grow with protect and RO water. The ppm comes out to about 280. That's full strength veg nutes for me for WELL established plants. Week 1 5mls is WAY to strong. Since I've got a cycle going I've always got plants in all phases. So I'd always have full strength veg nutes (280 ppm) on hand. For week 1 I'd cut my full strength veg nutes with RO water until the PPM was down to about 50. And I'd dilute less and less until it was well established.

I've got a blulab combo meter they work great. If it says 650. It's 650. Use less and get the PPMs where you want them. Much lower.

You might want to try a side by side run using a peat soilless mix and DynaGro and your normal soil.
For the soilless mix get your starting water up to 0.3 EC with Calmag and then add the Foliage Pro as needed.
Start low at around 0.6 EC and work up 1.1EC for full vegging plants.
I would personally use Protekt the whole cycle since it also adds some K, which is think DG is somewhat lacking.

7CardBud said:

You might want to try a side by side run using a peat soilless mix and DynaGro and your normal soil.
For the soilless mix get your starting water up to 0.3 EC with Calmag and then add the Foliage Pro as needed.
Start low at around 0.6 EC and work up 1.1EC for full vegging plants.
I would personally use Protekt the whole cycle since it also adds some K, which is think DG is somewhat lacking.

Click to expand...

Thanks, I wasnt sure how long to continue with Protekt through flower. I'm also not reading or recording EC or PPM's yet and am relying on the feedcharts. Is it worth money to buy a good EC/ PPM pen by blue lab etc?

Thanks for the tip, but I'm growing one plant only and it barely fits my space, two plants to compare isn't going to happen for me now. (pic below) It sounds like fun though. (My grow space is 1.5' x1.5x 3 !)...

Leaf tips still pointing down, either too much nitrogen, incorrect soil PH or low humidity (under 30RH )...I'm done worrying about it though, lets see how she does.

I'm loving the Mainline, it's like a big circle of flowers...

End of week 4 flower...