BM9AGS
Well-Known Member
You mean snort salt. Squeeze lemon in eye then shoot tq. I actually did that again a couple months ago. Fuck
When your plant HATES LEDS..
- Thread starter MasterpieceNutes
- Start date
MasterpieceNutes
Well-Known Member
My botany senses are tingling.. Why is this 'SOMETIMES' shock happening.. Anyone have any SPECIFIC cause of this? No real literature on it.. Shocking..
IS IT specific wavelength transitions which are provoking shock? DO I need to set up a table of transitions measuring shock? (Has anyone done this?) Sounds like broad spectrum exposure inhibits the shock of new plants undergoing transition? Or is it an issue of light intensity? (both?)
Here's what I understand: Chlorophyll is a photo receptor. When we look at its molecule structure (called a porphyrin ring) we see a magnesium atom at the center of four Nitrogen atoms, with either a CH3 (chlorophyll a) or CHO bond (chlorophyll b). It's an amazing functional energy gatherer.. And all of 10 or 12 molecules in composition (!)
So literature says that the a and b chlorophylls between them cover the wide range of absorption of spectra. -The polyenes (carbon bonds imported in glucose manufacturing function of chlorophyll) apparently can continually delocalise an entire network of alternating single and double bonds which apparently ['structure' themselves for specific wavelength absorption?]
English: Photoreceptors are adjustable lenses which need to 'recalibrate'..? Recalibration causes shock?
I'm not happy with that simplified explanation. Is porphyrin ring recalibration the culprit or chlorophyll a and b mismatching? Or something else?
Anybody got an explanation?
-I'm gonna go go google for awhile.. I'm piqued..
Edit: So far it looks like polyene restructuring is the culprit.. I'm not positive yet.
So apparently the (wavelength/intensity mismatch) must trigger something akin to an apoptosis event which then triggers polyene restructuring? -So some call back to DNA happens and an optimized set of instructions is sent to reorder polyenes?
I feel like I'm missing a lot of puzzle pieces..
Edit 2: Yep.. LOTS of pieces. Theres a whole set of photoinhibition stuff going on, a D1 protein which is apparently damaged and acts as a protease activators which 'clean up' the old stuff.. And another non-photochemical system on top of it all that plays a role in signal 'quenching' and state transitions.. And I'm probably STILL missing some of the involved processes.
Shit. /More coffee and will think about it..
Edit 3: Well, the process state stuff is ALWAYS going on, and easy to get lost in. I honed in on what we are specifically interested in that would relate problem in real numbers: damage mediators which could be measured (free cytokines, etc).. Unfortunately, way beyond my non-lab enviro to measure any of that. lol.
But on a good note I found some old data discussing initial 'setting' of chloroplasts / polyene initial structuring: far red exposure (from seed) seemed to set the grounds for less stressing based on photo spectrum or intensity based changes.
Does this explain away any of my initial questions about stressing? Nope. lol. Maybe I'll try a far red supplement in transitioning from Flouro to LED. With a control lacking the far red.
I suspect PPFD is playing some role too. More questions than when I started..
IS IT specific wavelength transitions which are provoking shock? DO I need to set up a table of transitions measuring shock? (Has anyone done this?) Sounds like broad spectrum exposure inhibits the shock of new plants undergoing transition? Or is it an issue of light intensity? (both?)
Here's what I understand: Chlorophyll is a photo receptor. When we look at its molecule structure (called a porphyrin ring) we see a magnesium atom at the center of four Nitrogen atoms, with either a CH3 (chlorophyll a) or CHO bond (chlorophyll b). It's an amazing functional energy gatherer.. And all of 10 or 12 molecules in composition (!)
So literature says that the a and b chlorophylls between them cover the wide range of absorption of spectra. -The polyenes (carbon bonds imported in glucose manufacturing function of chlorophyll) apparently can continually delocalise an entire network of alternating single and double bonds which apparently ['structure' themselves for specific wavelength absorption?]
English: Photoreceptors are adjustable lenses which need to 'recalibrate'..? Recalibration causes shock?
I'm not happy with that simplified explanation. Is porphyrin ring recalibration the culprit or chlorophyll a and b mismatching? Or something else?
Anybody got an explanation?
-I'm gonna go go google for awhile.. I'm piqued..
Edit: So far it looks like polyene restructuring is the culprit.. I'm not positive yet.
So apparently the (wavelength/intensity mismatch) must trigger something akin to an apoptosis event which then triggers polyene restructuring? -So some call back to DNA happens and an optimized set of instructions is sent to reorder polyenes?
I feel like I'm missing a lot of puzzle pieces..
Edit 2: Yep.. LOTS of pieces. Theres a whole set of photoinhibition stuff going on, a D1 protein which is apparently damaged and acts as a protease activators which 'clean up' the old stuff.. And another non-photochemical system on top of it all that plays a role in signal 'quenching' and state transitions.. And I'm probably STILL missing some of the involved processes.
Shit. /More coffee and will think about it..
Edit 3: Well, the process state stuff is ALWAYS going on, and easy to get lost in. I honed in on what we are specifically interested in that would relate problem in real numbers: damage mediators which could be measured (free cytokines, etc).. Unfortunately, way beyond my non-lab enviro to measure any of that. lol.
But on a good note I found some old data discussing initial 'setting' of chloroplasts / polyene initial structuring: far red exposure (from seed) seemed to set the grounds for less stressing based on photo spectrum or intensity based changes.
Does this explain away any of my initial questions about stressing? Nope. lol. Maybe I'll try a far red supplement in transitioning from Flouro to LED. With a control lacking the far red.
I suspect PPFD is playing some role too. More questions than when I started..
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MasterpieceNutes
Well-Known Member
I manufacture nutes
Cal Mag is really a catalyst as you probably know. But paradoxically, common sense tells us that Natural sun should require more Cal-mag than any artificial light.. (If we are assuming LEDs somehow require / provoke greater nutrient uptake and hence higher need for Cal-mag catalyst).. But first hand experience has shown me: plants under LED DO need more cal-mag than HPS or Natural sun comparisons. -Science degreed up the butt, and I have no idea why the plants want this extra cal-mag under LEDs.. I suppose the instruction set for how the plant calibrates glucose production as related to spectra intake for LEDs just comes up with this conversion factor. There has to be some correlation here.churchhaze
Well-Known Member
There's no such thing as cal-mag.I manufacture nutes
churchhaze
Well-Known Member
Calcium deficiency:
Magesium deficiency:
Cal-mag+ deficiency:
Magesium deficiency:
Cal-mag+ deficiency:
MasterpieceNutes
Well-Known Member
Calcium deficiency:
Magesium deficiency:
Cal-mag+ deficiency:
MasterpieceNutes
Well-Known Member
Hehe, No such thing as cal mag? Cal Mag refers to the blend of Calcium carbonate and Magnesium Nitrate, and Iron DPTA. Great product. Ask coco guys.
Oh, you think I'm lacking cal mag?
Like yourself I've mixed my own brands of nutes for a decade, I also sell quite a bit on the side. My formulation has a PERFECTLY adequate amount of cal-mag in it, UNTIL I started using LEDs.
I run multiple 100 gallon reservoirs. I'm fastidious. My reagents have been hygroscopically balanced. Bottom line: I've been through multiple rounds of LED crops now, I'm getting consistent cal-mag issues where there were none before.
I use the same nute calculator you do. 375 odd grams Pot Nit, 300 mkp and 700+ Mag Sulf. per 2 gallon set, 1:200.
STILL getting deficiencies. Tried 2 mediums. 8+ strains. (Some are better at scrounging cal-mag imo).
p.s.. Calmag is NOT a waste of money if you need it.. And it costs me about $0.50 to make a gallon. Watch out big spenders! Here ya go: 143g Mag nitrate, 43.4g Calc Nitrate 16.1g Iron Dpta 6.
Oh, you think I'm lacking cal mag?
Like yourself I've mixed my own brands of nutes for a decade, I also sell quite a bit on the side. My formulation has a PERFECTLY adequate amount of cal-mag in it, UNTIL I started using LEDs.
I run multiple 100 gallon reservoirs. I'm fastidious. My reagents have been hygroscopically balanced. Bottom line: I've been through multiple rounds of LED crops now, I'm getting consistent cal-mag issues where there were none before.
I use the same nute calculator you do. 375 odd grams Pot Nit, 300 mkp and 700+ Mag Sulf. per 2 gallon set, 1:200.
STILL getting deficiencies. Tried 2 mediums. 8+ strains. (Some are better at scrounging cal-mag imo).
p.s.. Calmag is NOT a waste of money if you need it.. And it costs me about $0.50 to make a gallon. Watch out big spenders! Here ya go: 143g Mag nitrate, 43.4g Calc Nitrate 16.1g Iron Dpta 6.
KarmaPaymentPlan
Well-Known Member
Pretty sure Calmag is 2 things is the jokeCalcium deficiency:
Magesium deficiency:
Cal-mag+ deficiency:
SPLFreak808
Well-Known Member
Just a thought here, but if your temps go down,rh goes up and ppfd stays the same then wouldn't mag slow down a bit in the soil causing you to use more?
I've supplemented my old single end 1kw grows with hydro 400 blurples and never noticed a need for increased mag, so it kind of goes against what you've experienced lol, id like to learn about it before diving into full cobs so post back if you find any answers.
Btw church is saying calcium and magnesium should be handled seperatly which i agree with.
@MasterpieceNutes
I've supplemented my old single end 1kw grows with hydro 400 blurples and never noticed a need for increased mag, so it kind of goes against what you've experienced lol, id like to learn about it before diving into full cobs so post back if you find any answers.
Btw church is saying calcium and magnesium should be handled seperatly which i agree with.
@MasterpieceNutes
PSUAGRO.
Well-Known Member
For transitions====Throw the superthrive in the trash and raise/dim your led panel for a week to harden off(no fert/light water)..........sounds like a plan?So FYI, you can't easily move a crop from HPS or MH or Flouro to LED. -They shock hard.
Ditto with store bought clones if they utilize the above. 5 days plus into shock..
I've started seed in rockwool in humidity domes under flouro and transplanted immediately to LED after sprouting. No shock.
Leave under flouro too long and then move to LED: significant shock.
I'm not sure about natural sunlight starts top LED.. shocks?
Just putting this out as an FYI. A lot of people obviously making LED transitions who read this forum. Only solution I have is to treat for shock: reduced light, maybe some superthrive treatment and water.. Keep room temps moderate, no stressing the plants on top of shock. Recovery in a week or so.. yuck.
Anyone else have any 'coping' strategies: share the knowledge please
Smart cloning nurseries will start utilizing LED raised clones I hope as this stuff gets legal everywhere. YES on 4 in MA
cannabis is a hardy c3 they adapt easily imoI've only done from seed under leds with no issues obviously
MasterpieceNutes
Well-Known Member
The joke is people thinking you can't or shouldn't use cal-mag to treat a magnesium deficiency. I get it: he's saying I'm adding too much of unnecessary nutes? What happens to my reservoir pH if I just add magnesium sulfate? -You getting it yet? How do you fix that problem? Ideally @ 5.8ph ionically stable? -(see cal mag recipe above).
Whats your reason to NOT use a ph stable nutrient solution? Is it money? .50 cents a gallon? Is it TOO much Iron or Calcium? Are you kidding me?
I run inert by the way. Hydroton and rockwool. I've grown in all mediums. Soil, coco, even non-medium like aero. I use flood tables and sometimes dutch trays or top feeder systems. Flood tables are about the best imo. Not for yield, but for control. Between ph, ppm you can tell several things that no other system can provide you data for. (what other system tells you proper feed strength and gives constant ph feedback?)
Churchhaze isn't in here being nice, he's in here being an asshole talking about shit he knows little or nothing about. A nute calculator isn't an ag science degree. Cal mag is used by everyone as a nice supplement. He's saying it's money down the toilet? 30 years of growing here disagreeing with that assessment. It's cheap as fuck and very useful. LITERALLY saying it doesn't exist? and people agreeing with him? Pull your heads outta your asses and admit CAL MAG is a great fucking supplement or admit to yourself you're just an asshole at heart that likes to argue if you can't do that.
Go tell the guys in the coco forums they don't need cal-mag. LOL.
Get it back on topic please.
I'll be running a 540nm far red experiment on hardening for LEDs from seed. Spoke to some alumni last night about initial polyene establishment. -Are there established patterns? Does it build established models or is it completely random? Nobody knows. Uncharted waters.
540nm exposure paper I was reading suggest 'models' of polyene construction which presented less shock in light transitions. I will be side by siding this on my next run of clones and seed.
As far as solutions, well its the same one we use, harden against light with weak initial application. Thats highly inconvenient. And almost a week of lost time on a lot of crops. Lot of commercial application here if anyone can figure out how to shave time off of that.
Whats your reason to NOT use a ph stable nutrient solution? Is it money? .50 cents a gallon? Is it TOO much Iron or Calcium? Are you kidding me?
I run inert by the way. Hydroton and rockwool. I've grown in all mediums. Soil, coco, even non-medium like aero. I use flood tables and sometimes dutch trays or top feeder systems. Flood tables are about the best imo. Not for yield, but for control. Between ph, ppm you can tell several things that no other system can provide you data for. (what other system tells you proper feed strength and gives constant ph feedback?)
Churchhaze isn't in here being nice, he's in here being an asshole talking about shit he knows little or nothing about. A nute calculator isn't an ag science degree. Cal mag is used by everyone as a nice supplement. He's saying it's money down the toilet? 30 years of growing here disagreeing with that assessment. It's cheap as fuck and very useful. LITERALLY saying it doesn't exist? and people agreeing with him? Pull your heads outta your asses and admit CAL MAG is a great fucking supplement or admit to yourself you're just an asshole at heart that likes to argue if you can't do that.
Go tell the guys in the coco forums they don't need cal-mag. LOL.
Get it back on topic please.
I'll be running a 540nm far red experiment on hardening for LEDs from seed. Spoke to some alumni last night about initial polyene establishment. -Are there established patterns? Does it build established models or is it completely random? Nobody knows. Uncharted waters.
540nm exposure paper I was reading suggest 'models' of polyene construction which presented less shock in light transitions. I will be side by siding this on my next run of clones and seed.
As far as solutions, well its the same one we use, harden against light with weak initial application. Thats highly inconvenient. And almost a week of lost time on a lot of crops. Lot of commercial application here if anyone can figure out how to shave time off of that.
MasterpieceNutes
Well-Known Member
Give me a reason to throw superthrive in the trash? I used to be like you. Didnt touch that shit for 15 years+, Very shady imo: no listed ingredients? Army navy endorsement? -Truth is it's probably just some kelp and hormone mix. FACT is: it significantly helps with shock and transplanting. SIGNIFICANTLY. As in, for $5.95 that little lifetime supply of superthrive is worth its weight in gold. I was wrong about superthrive. i said it was voodoo. ONE side by side (BY ALL MEANS DO IT YOURSELF!) cutting clones- Yeah.For transitions====Throw the superthrive in the trash and raise/dim your led panel for a week to harden off(no fert/light water)..........sounds like a plan?
I've only done from seed under leds with no issues obviously
But seriously, give me one good reason to throw it away? It's got proven results. It's cheap. It's used sparingly. -Not a $5 tool I would throw away.
PSUAGRO.
Well-Known Member
Church has been around here for a long time, he has a "dark" sense of humor sometimes..........don't take it the wrong way.
cal & mag are two different micros and should be treated as such.........adding more cal to a mag def just compounds the problem and vice versa. Some major crops need it in stripped soil but most don't with the local water supply.
US #1 fert brand scott's MG doesn't include it on it's ingredient list, most of the nation's tap water has enough.
I find it hard to believe that you noticed SIGNIFICANT results from superthrive
cal & mag are two different micros and should be treated as such.........adding more cal to a mag def just compounds the problem and vice versa. Some major crops need it in stripped soil but most don't with the local water supply.
US #1 fert brand scott's MG doesn't include it on it's ingredient list, most of the nation's tap water has enough.
I find it hard to believe that you noticed SIGNIFICANT results from superthrive
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MasterpieceNutes
Well-Known Member
Cmon PSU, really? That's an experiment in your opinion? His final opinion was: Miracle grow works!
How many variables has he got going on here? I ran a side by side with clones cut from 3 big moms. About 100 clones. Same hydro nute on rockwool. Same flouro lights. ONE VARIABLE: One got superthrive on top of their 200ppm normal feed, the other didn't. At 20 days, +15%-20% noticeable size on Superthrive side. And faster root set. (number of fails on both sides was insignificant, and likely from contaminants at cutting).
CONSIDER THIS CAREFULLY: These plants got nothing but the food I gave em. What was that? PURE CHEM feed. Cal.Nit, Pot. Nit, Ironchelate, MKP, Magsulf,ManganeseSulf, solubor, zinc and copper sulf, ammonium moly.. THATS ALL. -Thats a science experiment. Versus the hundreds of unknowns in his soil.
Needless to say, I've been using superthrive as an inexpensive initial micro treatment since. Cheap, inexpensive, easy 1 time tx, and worked with noticeable results.
Is it a miracle plant food? Hardly. I got similar results using just a cheap kelp additive from Home depot. -But it did provide real results. So I use them when applicable.
I DO wonder if its just something like triacontanol in their formula? -Its added something I wasn't giving the plants was seems to have gone to good use.
conjecture:
I tried a triacontanol experiment before.. Killed quite a few plants using improper mixture, lol. -And was it kco3 you had to use to make it? Wanna talk about some caustic chems that really scare me?
So superthrive for soil? I guess not, maybe? Who knows. I dont know whats in your soil.
For hydro? -Well, it did positive things for my plants so I use it.
Bottom line: 1 guys weird experiment with superthrive and miracle grow tells us all of nothing. -For $5 is it too much effort for you to do a side by side?
Money well spent is my opinion after doing my side by side.
How many variables has he got going on here? I ran a side by side with clones cut from 3 big moms. About 100 clones. Same hydro nute on rockwool. Same flouro lights. ONE VARIABLE: One got superthrive on top of their 200ppm normal feed, the other didn't. At 20 days, +15%-20% noticeable size on Superthrive side. And faster root set. (number of fails on both sides was insignificant, and likely from contaminants at cutting).
CONSIDER THIS CAREFULLY: These plants got nothing but the food I gave em. What was that? PURE CHEM feed. Cal.Nit, Pot. Nit, Ironchelate, MKP, Magsulf,ManganeseSulf, solubor, zinc and copper sulf, ammonium moly.. THATS ALL. -Thats a science experiment. Versus the hundreds of unknowns in his soil.
Needless to say, I've been using superthrive as an inexpensive initial micro treatment since. Cheap, inexpensive, easy 1 time tx, and worked with noticeable results.
Is it a miracle plant food? Hardly. I got similar results using just a cheap kelp additive from Home depot. -But it did provide real results. So I use them when applicable.
I DO wonder if its just something like triacontanol in their formula? -Its added something I wasn't giving the plants was seems to have gone to good use.
conjecture:
I tried a triacontanol experiment before.. Killed quite a few plants using improper mixture, lol. -And was it kco3 you had to use to make it? Wanna talk about some caustic chems that really scare me?
So superthrive for soil? I guess not, maybe? Who knows. I dont know whats in your soil.
For hydro? -Well, it did positive things for my plants so I use it.
Bottom line: 1 guys weird experiment with superthrive and miracle grow tells us all of nothing. -For $5 is it too much effort for you to do a side by side?
Money well spent is my opinion after doing my side by side.
PSUAGRO.
Well-Known Member
You make some good points.......i also only used it in container soil and saw zero benefits vers my control.
Hydro is a whole different story with less variables....... if it works for you, I see no problem with it. I'm generally against bottled nutrients and additives for obvious reasons.
Maybe some other growers can chime in on their hydro/superthrive experience.
Hydro is a whole different story with less variables....... if it works for you, I see no problem with it. I'm generally against bottled nutrients and additives for obvious reasons.
Maybe some other growers can chime in on their hydro/superthrive experience.
pop22
Well-Known Member
Maybe people just aren't using enough to begin with. I've grown in soil for a long time, and now on my 4th coco grow. All LED lighting. I set my cal/mag levels by ppm. My water is RO water as my tap water kills cannabis. I run 90 - 120 ppms of cal/mag and never have issues. I've used this amount in soil also under HPS and under LED.
And that's across maybe 50 strains also.
If any of my plants should be having a cal/mag issue, it would be this one ( she's not ):
And that's across maybe 50 strains also.
If any of my plants should be having a cal/mag issue, it would be this one ( she's not ):
Olive Drab Green
Well-Known Member
Just ordered some Roots Organics' Surge. For terpenes, resin, and microbial boost.
Olive Drab Green
Well-Known Member
Dude.. I dunno what you're trying to get at, but calcium and magnesium, ESPECIALLY magnesium, are vital and necessary, especially in Coco. Most people refer to Magnesium as the fourth macronutrient. So you are supplementing calcium and magnesium without knowing it, or something, but there is no possibility you went 50 grows without needing Ca/Mg.
pop22
Well-Known Member
Just saying its nothing to do with LED. The better your environment the more nutrients, Cal/Mag included, your plants use. So I'm agreeing with you. I'm saying I don't understand why so many people have cal mag issues. I'm no expert gardener. But I don't have cal mag issues, period.