Why do people pay 1k USD more for an LED that does the same thing

HockeyBeard · Feb 8, 2016

So, you're saying that every other company pays licensing fee to use that tech? I didn't know that, that's cool. They don't blend the phosphors, though, or at least own the patent on that. And that's what determines spectrum. But that is good info, thanks for sharing.

2ANONYMOUS · Feb 8, 2016

I am not 100 percent sure either but bottom line they own the patient of Chip on board so again under the curtains of corporations cree could very well be sending money that way remember someone invented them and someone patent it but true who knows whats what but by looking at the name A chinese man owns it not a american i hate to say it but them chinese when it comes to electronics we cannot compete with quality quantity and price or we be still making TV's here and last remaining TV company RCA closed there doors back in 87

ttystikk · Feb 8, 2016

HockeyBeard said:
I haven't seen anyone really finding anything beneficial from water cooling. It's usually not the the temp of the chip that causes the performance dip, but just the actual curve of LED voltage applied vs. power output. I don't think that the heat of the chip, or need for cooling, is the answer. You'd probably want to start a thread about that, though. From what I've gathered, it's not worth it to try to water-cool your LEDs. You won't get enough of a performance increase to offset the costs, difficulty, and frankly, inherent dangers of such an endeavor. I'm not sure how much benefit you'd see, but it'd be worth making a thread about to poll some of the experienced builders. Remember, KISS.

I respectfully disagree with this assessment. Temperature has been demonstrated to be a factor that affects chip efficiency, independent of voltage or total watts applied.

I'm also not convinced it's more difficult to do, or complex or dangerous.

Where did you get the info you based these conclusions on?

Astro Aquanaut · Feb 9, 2016

ttystikk said:
I respectfully disagree with this assessment. Temperature has been demonstrated to be a factor that affects chip efficiency, independent of voltage or total watts applied.

I'm also not convinced it's more difficult to do, or complex or dangerous.

Where did you get the info you based these conclusions on?

It says it right on the spec sheets... The specs are specked at specific temps and those temps are lower than what most are running them at even with a heat sink(the higher temp test is there also

). The difference is negligible for the most part between 77F and 185F you will lose 1200 in flux on the spec sheet for the 3590. So, basically optimally would be ≤77F and who knows the calculations on resistance? Is there a certain point where you won't see any benefit? Just a note, I am assuming dew point would be an issue

What is up with the pro china stuff on here by the way?

What is the definitive on UVB? Are the LEC's getting more frost on buds than LED? Has anyone done any comparisons on that? I am leaning towards LED because I watched the MAU vids, and been researching.. However, over on the LEC thread they are showing some frosty nugs.. Is anyone here using UVB in conjunction with their COB setups(wondering how they are positioning these)? Basically, I created a BOM based on what I have found, and the stuff from MAU which was pretty nice however if I calculate correctly with an 80 degree angle he has spaces in coverage because of the distance between his lights...

40 CXB3590 3500K CD
40 Ideal 50-2303CR
5 HLG-240H-C
40 Kingbrite 100mm 80 degree lenses + Holder
8 5.886"x45" heatsinks

So, basically I calculated it out for a 4x4 complete coverage I would need to extend the heatsinks(rails) out 45" add 5 cobs per a row, and have barely any distance between them. They could be spread out little and go 4x5 probably. I figure this setup it is going to be around 3k for 920 watts that doesn't include a light winch which I will have to use because my calculations are for 18" off the tops at 80°...

questiondj42 · Feb 9, 2016

ttystikk said:
I respectfully disagree with this assessment. Temperature has been demonstrated to be a factor that affects chip efficiency, independent of voltage or total watts applied.

I'm also not convinced it's more difficult to do, or complex or dangerous.

Where did you get the info you based these conclusions on?

I don't see COB LEDs having the same efficiency issues with rising temperatures as say, a turbocharger or a CPU/GPU. Watercooling would be trick as hell, but I'd be willing to bet that it would be diminishing returns in comparison to high-efficiency air cooling. It's converting electricity to generate light, not converting electricity to compute numbers. Water cooling to overdrive something is one thing, but it seems like the idea here is just more efficiency. Water cooling something that's probably being under-driven seems like a waste of energy.

HockeyBeard · Feb 9, 2016

Those LEC do look super frosty. I know most LED doesn't really have any real UVB oomf. LEC is still suffering the drawback of being a single bulb unit (hot spot) as opposed to multi-point, so the LED is probably going to produce more over the footprint, but the LEC is proving to grow some fine fine flowers.

HockeyBeard · Feb 9, 2016

Astro Aquanaut said:
It says it right on the spec sheets... The specs are specked at specific temps and those temps are lower than what most are running them at even with a heat sink(the higher temp test is there also ). The difference is negligible for the most part between 77F and 185F you will lose 1200 in flux on the spec sheet for the 3590. So, basically optimally would be ≤77F and who knows the calculations on resistance? Is there a certain point where you won't see any benefit? Just a note, I am assuming dew point would be an issue

What is up with the pro china stuff on here by the way?

What is the definitive on UVB? Are the LEC's getting more frost on buds than LED? Has anyone done any comparisons on that? I am leaning towards LED because I watched the MAU vids, and been researching.. However, over on the LEC thread they are showing some frosty nugs.. Is anyone here using UVB in conjunction with their COB setups(wondering how they are positioning these)? Basically, I created a BOM based on what I have found, and the stuff from MAU which was pretty nice however if I calculate correctly with an 80 degree angle he has spaces in coverage because of the distance between his lights...

40 CXB3590 3500K CD
40 Ideal 50-2303CR
5 HLG-240H-C
40 Kingbrite 100mm 80 degree lenses + Holder
8 5.886"x45" heatsinks

So, basically I calculated it out for a 4x4 complete coverage I would need to extend the heatsinks(rails) out 45" add 5 cobs per a row, and have barely any distance between them. They could be spread out little and go 4x5 probably. I figure this setup it is going to be around 3k for 920 watts that doesn't include a light winch which I will have to use because my calculations are for 18" off the tops at 80°...

View attachment 3604450

Looks like overkill, imo. 12-16 chips should do a bang up job in a 4x4

nevergoodenuf · Feb 9, 2016

White COBs with UV are coming in the 2nd or 3rd quarter, be patient. More on that in 2 or 3 months :bigjoint:

Astro Aquanaut · Feb 9, 2016

HockeyBeard said:
Looks like overkill, imo. 12-16 chips should do a bang up job in a 4x4

I was planning 700ma for 64% efficiency, and looking at several grows it seems like people are going to light on the number of chips... I checked out MAU's grow he ran with 32 chips I believe and he came out at around 1.5-1.7 gpw over a 4x8... I am coming from HPS, so my view is 1k per a 4x4, 4x6 with a light mover kind of view.. So, if I can get similar output as 1200-1500 watts on a 4x4 with 920 watts I will be happy...

The LEC's I believe cali crop doc on youtube has a LEC vs HPS grow where he uses 3x315 LEC's in a 4x8 space with good results, however I would run 4x for a 4x6. If LEC's are producing higher THC, terpene and better quality nugs then am really at a stand still :S Because if I was to purchase 4 lec's it would be less than half the price of LED...

We need someone to run clones from the same mother with 14x3590@700ma in a 2x4 or 3x3 tent vs 1 LEC in a 3x3 tent on the same ebb and flow system(bucket,flowngrow,active aqua what have you) then have the samples put into a Chromatograph.. My hypothesis is LED will give higher yeild, , however the LEC will produce higher THC and the Terpene content I have no clue, but am thinking will be similar... I can setup that scenario, however I don't have a Chromatograph....

HockeyBeard · Feb 9, 2016

Astro Aquanaut said:
Am going to run them at 700MA for 64% efficiency, and looking at several grows it seems like people are going to light on the number of chips... I checked out MAU's grow he ran with 32 chips I believe and he came out at around 1.5-1.7 gpw over a 4x8... I am coming from HPS, so my view is 1k per a 4x4, 4x6 with a light mover kind of view.. So, if I can get similar output as 1200-1500 watts on a 4x4 with 920 watts I will be happy...

The LEC's I believe cali crop doc on youtube has a LEC vs HPS grow where he uses 3x315 LEC's in a 4x8 space with good results, however I would run 4x for a 4x6. If LEC's are producing higher THC, terpene and better quality nugs then am really at a stand still :S Because if I was to purchase 4 lec's it would be less than half the price of LED...

Just run em a 1.05mA and call it a day. You can always add more chips if you think you need them.

ttystikk · Feb 26, 2016

questiondj42 said:
I don't see COB LEDs having the same efficiency issues with rising temperatures as say, a turbocharger or a CPU/GPU. Watercooling would be trick as hell, but I'd be willing to bet that it would be diminishing returns in comparison to high-efficiency air cooling. It's converting electricity to generate light, not converting electricity to compute numbers. Water cooling to overdrive something is one thing, but it seems like the idea here is just more efficiency. Water cooling something that's probably being under-driven seems like a waste of energy.

'You don't see...' You got any data or is that just a guess?

Temperature droop in COB LED is a well documented phenomenon.

An odd and strangely irrelevant comparison, as well; since when is better lighting efficiency any less important than crunching bits?

Water cooling showed up in cars long before turbos did, and it's been in buildings for a lot longer than grows have. Density and specific performance have always been the justification for it and I see nothing fundamentally different here.

Just spitballing, but my engineering nose tells me there's something to this.

Eric Pettit · Apr 24, 2016

hey guys I see the acronym LEC's what does that stand for?

ttystikk · Apr 24, 2016

Eric Pettit said:
hey guys I see the acronym LEC's what does that stand for?

Light
Emitting
Ceramic
=
Ceramic
Metal
Halide
=
Ceramic
Discharge
Metal halide

Different alphabet soup, they're all the very same tech. To get the most out of them, insist on another acronym;
LFSW;
Low
Frequency
Square
Wave...
Ballast.

Why do people pay 1k USD more for an LED that does the same thing

HockeyBeard

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2ANONYMOUS

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ttystikk

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Astro Aquanaut

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questiondj42

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HockeyBeard

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HockeyBeard

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nevergoodenuf

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Astro Aquanaut

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HockeyBeard

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ttystikk

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