Why Do You Hate It So?

undertheice · Dec 27, 2010

i see thread after thread posted here vilifying religion, christianity in particular. i just have to ask why y'all are so vehement in your condemnation of this archaic practice, what do you see as so dangerous in these fairy tales? though i'd agree that this tendency to create mythical reasons for our existence is rather childish and a bit embarrassing, i really don't see any more harm in it than any of our other bad habits. though it has been used as an excuse for millions of atrocities, religion has never directly caused a single death or started a single war. it is not the cause of ignorance, though it may allow the ignorant to feel justified in their plight, and it has even safeguarded ancient teachings during some of history's darkest hours. religion has been used to bind societies together in times of strife and as a rallying point to rebuild after many a disaster. it has provided solace for the disenfranchised and is a major conduit for charitable contributions and much needed aid.

as an atheist i have no great love of religion, but its evil is minimal compared to the avarice and hatred that is so much a part of humanity. every major religion in the world demonizes the worst of human nature and promotes the virtues we would all like to see grow within our society. our morality has been shaped and codified by these religions and even the most rabid atheists can trace their own codes of conduct back to the teachings of various religious leaders and sacred texts. today's religions bind billions to ethical conduct, practices they might eschew if they were not lead to them by the concept of a universal understanding of right and wrong.

so what the hell are you bitching about? maybe i'm just mellowing in my old age, but i've begun to see some small merit in the religious indoctrination that keeps the angry mob at bay. i've begun to see the religious elitism that once seemed intolerable as merely a minor nuisance, an insignificant assault on the ego and nothing more. i've begun to realize that we all owe our very existence to the futile institutions of religion and that they may be a necessary evil, something to be tolerated until some semblance of enlightenment can be attained by the multitudes. religion may even be a path to such an enlightenment.

crackerboy · Dec 27, 2010

I finally found one tolerant atheist. There is no doubt that in today's age religious institutions are contributing more to the community than any other charity out there.

Pipe Dream · Dec 27, 2010

I think it's because most non believers think that the evidence speaks for itself and if you believe this stuff you are probably somewhat dim witted. That's not always the case but people who are so easily tricked and so impressionable is very scary to me. Religion has definately caused wars and it justifies certain evil acts in the eyes of some believers such as suicide bombers and people who believe god tells them to kill. Some people are so passionate that they will do ANYTHING to prove their loyalty like murder or even mass suicide. They are slaves to their preachers and churches and it's kinda like the perfect army IMO.

Wordz · Dec 27, 2010

lol we owe our existence to the religious institutions. fail

Padawanbater2 · Dec 28, 2010

undertheice said:
i see thread after thread posted here vilifying religion, christianity in particular. i just have to ask why y'all are so vehement in your condemnation of this archaic practice, what do you see as so dangerous in these fairy tales? though i'd agree that this tendency to create mythical reasons for our existence is rather childish and a bit embarrassing, i really don't see any more harm in it than any of our other bad habits. though it has been used as an excuse for millions of atrocities, religion has never directly caused a single death or started a single war. it is not the cause of ignorance, though it may allow the ignorant to feel justified in their plight, and it has even safeguarded ancient teachings during some of history's darkest hours. religion has been used to bind societies together in times of strife and as a rallying point to rebuild after many a disaster. it has provided solace for the disenfranchised and is a major conduit for charitable contributions and much needed aid.

as an atheist i have no great love of religion, but its evil is minimal compared to the avarice and hatred that is so much a part of humanity. every major religion in the world demonizes the worst of human nature and promotes the virtues we would all like to see grow within our society. our morality has been shaped and codified by these religions and even the most rabid atheists can trace their own codes of conduct back to the teachings of various religious leaders and sacred texts. today's religions bind billions to ethical conduct, practices they might eschew if they were not lead to them by the concept of a universal understanding of right and wrong.

so what the hell are you bitching about? maybe i'm just mellowing in my old age, but i've begun to see some small merit in the religious indoctrination that keeps the angry mob at bay. i've begun to see the religious elitism that once seemed intolerable as merely a minor nuisance, an insignificant assault on the ego and nothing more. i've begun to realize that we all owe our very existence to the futile institutions of religion and that they may be a necessary evil, something to be tolerated until some semblance of enlightenment can be attained by the multitudes. religion may even be a path to such an enlightenment.

I'm definitely coming back to this tonight...

Perfextionist420 · Dec 28, 2010

Examples of religion-based wars include the Mideast conflict between Israel and neighboring Muslim countries, the Crusades, The Troubles in Northern Ireland, French Wars of Religion, European wars of religion, the Taiping Rebellion, Islamic Jihad, the Second Sudanese Civil War, the Indo-Pakistani War of 1947 and Jewish-Roman Wars.[citation needed]
Examples of religion-based violence and terrorism include the Mormon-led Mountain Meadows massacre, the September 11, 2001 attacks, the Mumbai attacks of 2008, the 2005 London bombings, and the Bali bombings. These attacks are carried out by those with very strong religious convictions. These acts of religious terrorism are seen by the terrorists as small skirmishes in the context of a much larger global religious war.[40] Although the causes of terrorism are complex, it may be that terrorists are partially reassured by their religious views that God is on their side and will reward them in heaven for punishing unbelievers.[41][42]

Mormon-led Mountain Meadows massacre
These conflicts are among the most difficult to resolve, particularly where both sides believe that God is on their side and has endorsed the moral righteousness of their claims.[41] One of the most infamous quotes associated with religious fanaticism was made in 1209 during the siege of Béziers, a Crusader asked the Papal Legate Arnaud Amalric how to tell Catholics from Cathars when the city was taken, to which Amalric replied: "Tuez-les tous; Dieu reconnaitra les siens," or "Kill them all; God will recognize his.

mrboots · Dec 28, 2010

I have wondered about this too. Some of the people that scream the loudest about trying to change people's religious beliefs are athiests. We will never be able to prove for sure, without a doubt if there is or isn't a God or a Shiva or a Gia or any other type of diety, so who cares what anyone thinks. If it makes you happy and improves your life to belive a certain way, have at it. There is some good in all religions. Lets not forget that athiest extremists have killed and opressed alot of people who didn't think the same way as them. (modern China and the Soviet Union come to mind)

mindphuk · Dec 28, 2010

There's plenty of reasons to be critical of people when they claim unprovable things as fact. The biggest reasons for me include stopping people like...

Heisenberg · Dec 28, 2010

Too often religious rules interfere with my life. If I want to get drunk on Sunday, it's pisses off god. Of course, if I buy it from a place that has paid a little extra to sell on Sunday, god looks the other way. Religious people knock on my door to tell me what they believe. They leave pamphlets on my car. They send me mail telling me my soul needs saved. If there is one thing religion doesn't do, it's keep to itself.

There are many cases of parents letting their children die, yes die, because they refused medical treatment in favor of prayer. Sick people go to faith healers for tumors and are told they've been removed. Crippled people go to evangelists and are pronounced healed, and when their symptoms return the healer is long gone in another state. People have been stoned, burned, drowned, torchered, oppressed and beheaded all as a DIRECT result of religious teachings. Indirectly, how many people have died because religious people have a problem with stem cell research? People are kept ignorant and vulnerable, in a state of constant sin(shame) and are told the only thing that will wash away the shame is gods love. And every time you go to worship and bask in god's love, he passes around the collection plate. Have you ever been to church and heard them say, "no collection this week folks, were doing fine"? Faith keeps us from asking questions without giving any answers. Faith encourages you to embrace ignorance for the sake of comfort. Anything that promotes ignorance, be definition, is an enemy of truth.

Padawanbater2 · Dec 29, 2010

This might be a multi-quote catastrophe, so forgive me. I just want to touch on each point...

undertheice said:
i see thread after thread posted here vilifying religion, christianity in particular.

What exactly do you mean by "vilify?

undertheice said:
i just have to ask why y'all are so vehement in your condemnation of this archaic practice, what do you see as so dangerous in these fairy tales?

The fairy tales themselves aren't dangerous at all, they're harmless stories, just like any other story. The harm comes in when people take them literally, like many people do.

undertheice said:
though i'd agree that this tendency to create mythical reasons for our existence is rather childish and a bit embarrassing, i really don't see any more harm in it than any of our other bad habits.

Do you believe it isn't harmful to our society for people to believe false claims?

undertheice said:
though it has been used as an excuse for millions of atrocities, religion has never directly caused a single death or started a single war.

What about cases of religious neglect? Where parents of sick and dying children refuse to give them medical care and opt to pray instead?

It gives people another justification to commit the acts wars require. We've been over that a million times. Your counter-argument seems to always be "well if it wasn't religion it would just be something else" which, to me, isn't much of an argument at all because we should be working towards weeding out all the things that give our species false justification for such horrible acts. You seem to give organized religion some sort of pass in this dept.

undertheice said:
it is not the cause of ignorance, though it may allow the ignorant to feel justified in their plight, and it has even safeguarded ancient teachings during some of history's darkest hours.

You've seriously gotta be kidding me. UTI, you must accept that teaching someone creationism is teaching them to be ignorant. Not to mention half of the people in this country do not accept evolution as fact, and when asked as to why, from personal experiences I can attest to this, they respond that they believe God created everything and everyone in it's current form (ie. a basic form of creationism). These people are creationists without even knowing it.

undertheice said:
religion has been used to bind societies together in times of strife and as a rallying point to rebuild after many a disaster. it has provided solace for the disenfranchised and is a major conduit for charitable contributions and much needed aid.

Right, organized religion does good things too. I don't know any atheists who'd argue with that.. buuut... I think there are certain things to consider you might be forgetting... One, what's "good" is subjective, yes organized religions do good and a lot of people who give to charity, probably even the majority, are Christian, but there is always a hidden cost. I think a good analogy would be blood diamonds; they look good on the wedding finger of American brides, but what price did they come at? Think the bride to be would still accept the diamond had she known what it took to get it? Two, do you think Ted Bundy or Jeffrey Dahmer ever did good things on occasion? Do the good things they may have done during their lifetimes outweigh the bad things? Apply that logic to organized religion.

undertheice said:
every major religion in the world demonizes the worst of human nature and promotes the virtues we would all like to see grow within our society.

The three Abrahamic religions promote homophobia, sexism, genocide, murder, hate, cruel and unusual punishment and they demonize reason, logic, skepticism, rationalism, science in ALL it's forms, equality, acceptance...

I think I'm starting to see the problem... Have you ever read the Bible UTI? :neutral:

undertheice said:
our morality has been shaped and codified by these religions and even the most rabid atheists can trace their own codes of conduct back to the teachings of various religious leaders and sacred texts.

Sure, I guess in the same way that if you want to get down to the basics of things... I'd actually be European. But I was born in America, I've been here my whole life. My roots might be European, but I'm American. My moral roots might have been based off religious teachings, but they were altered with my understanding of science, education, logic, humanity, equality, a million other things that I've since learned based on a background I completely owe much more to Science, history and philosophy than any "sacred text".

undertheice said:
today's religions bind billions to ethical conduct, practices they might eschew if they were not lead to them by the concept of a universal understanding of right and wrong.

I don't believe you don't give people enough credit.

undertheice said:
i've begun to realize that we all owe our very existence to the futile institutions of religion and that they may be a necessary evil, something to be tolerated until some semblance of enlightenment can be attained by the multitudes. religion may even be a path to such an enlightenment.

What say you about the 2,000 year long or so experiment we've had with organized religion actively dominating 90%+ of the human populations lives?

Is 2,000 years not long enough to come to a good conclusion of whether or not organized religion is good or bad for humanity?

crackerboy said:
I finally found one tolerant atheist.

What is your definition of "tolerant"?

Tym · Dec 29, 2010

Stop pushing your religion all up in our face, schools, government, laws, workplace and our doorstep. Then I think you would see a lot more tolerance.
Till then, you say and do stupid shit, we'll call you on it. It's that easy.

I would like to think that if I went door to door telling everyone that I believe in a god you can't see, that can't be shown to exist, that contradicts reality and itself, and if you don't believe me, you are going to die, then you are going to be tortured for an eternity, the least I would get is a "you're fucking insane, get out of my face". When I would clearly deserve a psychiatrist..

Now I tell you that same god has told many people time and time again to kill people like you. And that people have acted on those commands from a non existent being and killed people just like you. Then I tell you that your kids have to learn this is school. Then I tell you that unless you believe what I tell you, you can't run for public office. You can't ever be president. Then I tell you that we pass laws based on what this non existent being likes and doesn't like. Then I tell you that your boss better not find out you don't believe this, or he will fire you.

I'm sure you would want to do more than just disagree with me.

You can't even handle someone disagreeing with you. That's hilarious. You want the right to say whatever you want, but you don't want other people who don't agree with you to have those same rights.
You demand evidence from people who simply don't believe you, then fall short of providing evidence to those same people so that they might believe.

I could go on, but I'm sure you're getting the picture..

crackerboy · Dec 30, 2010

Tym said:
Stop pushing your religion all up in our face, schools, government, laws, workplace and our doorstep. Then I think you would see a lot more tolerance.
Till then, you say and do stupid shit, we'll call you on it. It's that easy.

I would like to think that if I went door to door telling everyone that I believe in a god you can't see, that can't be shown to exist, that contradicts reality and itself, and if you don't believe me, you are going to die, then you are going to be tortured for an eternity, the least I would get is a "you're fucking insane, get out of my face". When I would clearly deserve a psychiatrist..

Now I tell you that same god has told many people time and time again to kill people like you. And that people have acted on those commands from a non existent being and killed people just like you. Then I tell you that your kids have to learn this is school. Then I tell you that unless you believe what I tell you, you can't run for public office. You can't ever be president. Then I tell you that we pass laws based on what this non existent being likes and doesn't like. Then I tell you that your boss better not find out you don't believe this, or he will fire you.

I'm sure you would want to do more than just disagree with me.

You can't even handle someone disagreeing with you. That's hilarious. You want the right to say whatever you want, but you don't want other people who don't agree with you to have those same rights.
You demand evidence from people who simply don't believe you, then fall short of providing evidence to those same people so that they might believe.

I could go on, but I'm sure you're getting the picture..

Who are you even talking to. Your rants are getting more and more retarded every time you post. You are the only one I see imposing your beliefs on others. No one is pushing anything on you, your schools, your work, or your government. The reason you might see religion in those places is because the majority of people want them there. Nobody tells you that you have to believe it. We are just telling you that you do not have the right to dictate what I believe. I have the right to display and voice my beliefs without your blatant attacks on my freedoms.

~Glitterpixiee~ · Dec 30, 2010

Im happy being the Heathen I am! I believe in evolution. It all began as a college paper and I simply found too much factual evidence to believe in anything other.

Padawanbater2 · Dec 30, 2010

crackerboy said:
You are the only one I see imposing your beliefs on others. No one is pushing anything on you, your schools, your work, or your government.

How? Is stating reality "imposing your beliefs"? Reality is not subjective, your interpretation of it is, the distinction is important, and you simply don't grasp that.

When you say "I believe _____" and I think it's wrong, me stating that I think it's wrong is not "imposing my beliefs" onto you, it's observing reality, seeing an inconsistency with the way you described what you believed with the reality I observed, and stating it, openly and honestly for all to see. You don't get some special pass simply because you believe you should. Religious people need to understand this. In the 21st century, your beliefs will be put through the same gauntlet of the standards of evidence other beliefs require, and that's why the 22nd century will see a dramatic decline in beliefs in deities.

crackerboy said:
The reason you might see religion in those places is because the majority of people want them there. Nobody tells you that you have to believe it. We are just telling you that you do not have the right to dictate what I believe.

Wait... so when you demand a cross be placed at the steps of city hall (via public tax dollars), that's OK because the majority wants it there and any atheist that opposes it is "imposing on your beliefs"?

"We are just telling you that you do not have the right to dictate what I believe." - why does this go for Christians but not for atheists or people of different faiths?

crackerboy said:
I have the right to display and voice my beliefs without your blatant attacks on my freedoms.

Stating ignorance is not a "freedom" you posses, whether it be your belief or not, people like me will speak up against it. Sorry to rain on that parade..

crackerboy · Jan 1, 2011

Padawanbater2 said:
How? Is stating reality "imposing your beliefs"? Reality is not subjective, your interpretation of it is, the distinction is important, and you simply don't grasp that.

When you say "I believe _____" and I think it's wrong, me stating that I think it's wrong is not "imposing my beliefs" onto you, it's observing reality, seeing an inconsistency with the way you described what you believed with the reality I observed, and stating it, openly and honestly for all to see. You don't get some special pass simply because you believe you should. Religious people need to understand this. In the 21st century, your beliefs will be put through the same gauntlet of the standards of evidence other beliefs require, and that's why the 22nd century will see a dramatic decline in beliefs in deities.

Wait... so when you demand a cross be placed at the steps of city hall (via public tax dollars), that's OK because the majority wants it there and any atheist that opposes it is "imposing on your beliefs"?

"We are just telling you that you do not have the right to dictate what I believe." - why does this go for Christians but not for atheists or people of different faiths?

Stating ignorance is not a "freedom" you posses, whether it be your belief or not, people like me will speak up against it. Sorry to rain on that parade..

No one is demanding anything of you. But we just refuse to let you take religion out of everything. Go take a tour of DC. Look at the statues and inscriptions on all the buildings. Face it man, this country was founded by Christians. This is a Christian nation whether you like it or not. We are not telling you that you have to put a new cross up we are telling you that you can't take the ones down that where put there by our forefathers. If you are so ashamed to be an American then you should move to Canada.

I actually think that we are on the verge of another revival. But you are right, some day the world will be blinded by the Lie and revolt against Christians. Its all predicted in the Bible.

Dionysus · Jan 1, 2011

the crusades

Padawanbater2 · Jan 2, 2011

crackerboy said:
No one is demanding anything of you. But we just refuse to let you take religion out of everything.

I'm not trying to "take religion out" of anything. I'm not even arguing that your religion shouldn't be in the public eye. You need to read my posts a little more carefully, I've noticed you've done the same thing a few times with my previous posts too.

Look crackerboy... the only thing I'm asking is that you don't use my money to purchase things for your religion. Is that too much to ask? Don't use PUBLIC money, our collective TAXES, to fund religious icons or relics that reside on PUBLIC property. I don't believe the stuff, man. You don't believe Islam is true, so what if the government wanted to use your tax dollars to buy some icon for Muhammad and post it up in your local court house? You'd have quite a bit to say about that, right?

crackerboy said:
Go take a tour of DC. Look at the statues and inscriptions on all the buildings. Face it man, this country was founded by Christians. This is a Christian nation whether you like it or not.

And you can repeat that till you're blue in the face, you can't argue with facts;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism#Deism_in_the_United_States

Also, because I know you've never heard of it, read this - the Treaty of Tripoli; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tripoli - in which it is explicitly stated in Article 11 that the US is not a Christian nation.

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

I don't expect that'll change your mind though..

crackerboy said:
I actually think that we are on the verge of another revival. But you are right, some day the world will be blinded by the Lie and revolt against Christians. Its all predicted in the Bible.

ROFL!

swishatwista · Jan 2, 2011

Have you heard the phrase, "if you have to ask, you just dont get it"., well, go figure it out, but dont ask for our help if you wont except it, go listen to the preachers(used loosely)

swishatwista · Jan 2, 2011

I just dont get it, why the hell would we have to read some big ass big to figure out what we're supossed to do this life. Now thats some simple minded shit. You'd think we were already born with a brain...wait...what...what......ok

guy incognito · Jan 2, 2011

This country was founded by slave owners too. Lets enslave everyone that is darker than me.

Why Do You Hate It So?

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