silasraven
Well-Known Member
why do i need one . i have one leg id love to go hunting with one of those guns and blow a hole in my dinner and watch it drop instead of chasing a blood trail.
"Why does anybody need an assault weapon"
- Thread starter desert dude
- Start date
Harrekin
Well-Known Member
Shotgun slugs.
cannabineer
Ursus marijanus
Since feudalism relies upon the conventions of vassalage and homage, I don't understand for what arrangement Marx used the term. To the best of my knowledge, there were no feudal societies in 19th-and 20th-century Europe. cn
Canna Sylvan
Well-Known Member
Abandon has his own reality.
Doer
Well-Known Member
Post-capital feudalism? Feudalism is capitalism, with a serf or slave class, often using barter among themselves.
The high ground is a re-built fortification to survey and protect the local village trade. A tax is levied on your opium or whatever. It gets skimmed by the Mandarin class and delivered to the Warlords. And the warlords, and/or their Kings wage war over the larger, more lucrative trade routes with the largess and the levy of young farm brutes.. They pray for guidance to WIN and invent religion to damn their enemies.
They conduct the Capital game in front of their leaders, for favor. Bravery from birth is very good. Kill a scorpion in your cradle and become King. Personal capital is the first and foremost. All this is way before and still continues in this world without any coin of the realm.
So, the big mis-understanding is that Capital is not money, it is not gold or valuables. Those are the markers and they change. All trade is barter, money is the marker, and Capital is standing in the social group.
It is a lot more like credit rating that most people think. In fact, it is very difficult to amass any standing without getting any of the credit. So, simple. Has never changed.
All the rest of the theories from Sparta to FDR, are a series of experiments around and well away from, these simple facts.
To set up Capitalism as an -ism, that is no better than any other is where I, and many, many others have gotten sorely confused. This has occurred to me only within the last 10 yrs so, I'm just seeking to share.
So, don't hide in complexity, I say. Trade is not capital. Capital, you attain in life by gaining recognition from your social group. And you start very young.
(be good and Santa will be good to you)
The high ground is a re-built fortification to survey and protect the local village trade. A tax is levied on your opium or whatever. It gets skimmed by the Mandarin class and delivered to the Warlords. And the warlords, and/or their Kings wage war over the larger, more lucrative trade routes with the largess and the levy of young farm brutes.. They pray for guidance to WIN and invent religion to damn their enemies.
They conduct the Capital game in front of their leaders, for favor. Bravery from birth is very good. Kill a scorpion in your cradle and become King. Personal capital is the first and foremost. All this is way before and still continues in this world without any coin of the realm.
So, the big mis-understanding is that Capital is not money, it is not gold or valuables. Those are the markers and they change. All trade is barter, money is the marker, and Capital is standing in the social group.
It is a lot more like credit rating that most people think. In fact, it is very difficult to amass any standing without getting any of the credit. So, simple. Has never changed.
All the rest of the theories from Sparta to FDR, are a series of experiments around and well away from, these simple facts.
To set up Capitalism as an -ism, that is no better than any other is where I, and many, many others have gotten sorely confused. This has occurred to me only within the last 10 yrs so, I'm just seeking to share.
So, don't hide in complexity, I say. Trade is not capital. Capital, you attain in life by gaining recognition from your social group. And you start very young.
(be good and Santa will be good to you)
cannabineer
Ursus marijanus
Feudalism and capitalism are as distinct as oranges and drywall.
The essence of feudalism was a contract marked by homage and vassalage.
Not all hierarchic societies were feudal.
Also, capitalism requires a banker class. Feudalism does not.
I am beginning to think that describing certain capital-driven social models as "feudal" abuses the term in the search for a punchy metaphor. A current and salient example is the conflation of slavery with de facto indenture. Thus the monstrous Frankenterm "wage slave". cn
Canna Sylvan
Well-Known Member
Wage slave makes for hilarious punchlines from the likes of Abandon and his ken.
Doer
Well-Known Member
Yet, hark, how doth thou take this humble self's meaning of capital? This one's meaning was not to compare -isms.
For this being, the suggestion is that capital is the overlay of life, and not just human life. It is Status and recognition. It is The Struggle, itself.
The author of this post submits, that capital stands above and before the affairs of men. Men make markers to signify social ability, ie, power. Take the credit, risk the blame, yes? Capital is power.
The rest is the bean count of -isms.
For this being, the suggestion is that capital is the overlay of life, and not just human life. It is Status and recognition. It is The Struggle, itself.
The author of this post submits, that capital stands above and before the affairs of men. Men make markers to signify social ability, ie, power. Take the credit, risk the blame, yes? Capital is power.
The rest is the bean count of -isms.
cannabineer
Ursus marijanus
I am not following you when you redefine capital away from money. The key about capital is that it is valuated (and can be precisely valuated) and handled as a financial asset. Capital is a sort of money. Money is not a sort of capital. My opinion. cn
cannabineer
Ursus marijanus
But they are Neolithic, and we haven't been for six millennia.
I am being a bit starchy about the word because only with mutually-defined concepts can we have a discussion that a) holds meaning) and b) can have a result. I militate against "vagueism". cn
I am being a bit starchy about the word because only with mutually-defined concepts can we have a discussion that a) holds meaning) and b) can have a result. I militate against "vagueism". cn
Doer
Well-Known Member
Oh please. I'm trying to get to the meaning of the word. Not the word. Not the -ism.
So, switch to Scotchguard for a second. I'm thinking capital is a concept that the gears have seriously slipped.
How did we evolved the concept of capital if not from the misty past? And if these surviving neolithic examples have the clear concept of capital but expressed so differently, it seems that capital is not malleable in nature, immutable even. Yet, only it's process can be defined quite differently. To me all the eco-poltical -isms are the different expressions of Capital. (not capitalism)
But boring, right?
So, switch to Scotchguard for a second. I'm thinking capital is a concept that the gears have seriously slipped.
How did we evolved the concept of capital if not from the misty past? And if these surviving neolithic examples have the clear concept of capital but expressed so differently, it seems that capital is not malleable in nature, immutable even. Yet, only it's process can be defined quite differently. To me all the eco-poltical -isms are the different expressions of Capital. (not capitalism)
But boring, right?
cannabineer
Ursus marijanus
Ok; I'll play. I am an accountant. I am sent to the South Seas, to those two communities for the express purpose of inventorying their capital. What will i fnd and how will i perform the conversions? cn
Doer
Well-Known Member
Well, now you see. It is a matter of value isn't it, this capital? Now, even though the two cultures conduct the process very differently, it is all about respect. And maybe that is also the archaic meaning of that word.
Without going into the various details, to you as the accountant from afar, you would find no value.
Just as, with both of these cultures ,only handmade charms or a certain hard won sea shell, for the highlanders, have any value. With that shell and certain other consideration, you can buy a wife. What is the value of that to them?
To you?
In the cargo cult, it would be even more mystifying for an accountant. It is a pay forward, prestige system where you place an honor debt on a peer by giving. And what you give is a charm with a history. Someone gave it to you and you owe them honorarium unspecified. And it grows with each new giving, with new baubles to the charm. And it grows, not in value, but in obligation placed on the one so honored to receive it.
So, very interesting in that capital not only has nothing to do with money, it has a various applications of value. It is social rules only. And they, like us, believe it. And like you, do take pause a bit if it's even questioned.
Now, as our cultures contact, there is barter. But, the one that barters with you when you lost your food, is the one that has amassed enough actual capital among his fellows, to have what you want. The Cleverest. Ahead of the curve. The go to guy. Not the one crippled at birth from a snake bite. He doesn't need money he isn't set up for trade. But his standing will progress in his group, just for being helpful. And he will take that spare boat anchor. A good deal.
So, no, capital has strange values all it own across time and culture, even today.
If we understand that things are not so absolute, when it comes to value we might understand how there is no capital without a subjective only recognized value. But, that value may make no sense to us. Yet, it can be lived by. And our MasterCard has no value to them.
Hey, I just remembered. The Gods must Be Crazy. Social standing capital? Sure. The value of a hard object? Priceless evil.
Without going into the various details, to you as the accountant from afar, you would find no value.
Just as, with both of these cultures ,only handmade charms or a certain hard won sea shell, for the highlanders, have any value. With that shell and certain other consideration, you can buy a wife. What is the value of that to them?
To you?
In the cargo cult, it would be even more mystifying for an accountant. It is a pay forward, prestige system where you place an honor debt on a peer by giving. And what you give is a charm with a history. Someone gave it to you and you owe them honorarium unspecified. And it grows with each new giving, with new baubles to the charm. And it grows, not in value, but in obligation placed on the one so honored to receive it.
So, very interesting in that capital not only has nothing to do with money, it has a various applications of value. It is social rules only. And they, like us, believe it. And like you, do take pause a bit if it's even questioned.
Now, as our cultures contact, there is barter. But, the one that barters with you when you lost your food, is the one that has amassed enough actual capital among his fellows, to have what you want. The Cleverest. Ahead of the curve. The go to guy. Not the one crippled at birth from a snake bite. He doesn't need money he isn't set up for trade. But his standing will progress in his group, just for being helpful. And he will take that spare boat anchor. A good deal.
So, no, capital has strange values all it own across time and culture, even today.
If we understand that things are not so absolute, when it comes to value we might understand how there is no capital without a subjective only recognized value. But, that value may make no sense to us. Yet, it can be lived by. And our MasterCard has no value to them.
Hey, I just remembered. The Gods must Be Crazy. Social standing capital? Sure. The value of a hard object? Priceless evil.
cannabineer
Ursus marijanus
I am perhaps being a curmudgeon about this, but i see you equating barter (which is ancient beyond reckoning) with capital (which necessarily came after the invention of banking). I suspect you are using the term "capital" metaphorically. cn
Dr Kynes
Well-Known Member
capital usually refers to a source of wealth, so land is capital, currency is capital, and food or other commodities are capital, based on their ability to be parlayed for other things you want while prestige and social standing are NOT capital, despite the freequent abuse of the non-phrase "political capital".
if i sail a ship full of silk, fine ceramic, spices and laquerware from distant cathay to anywhere in europa i can trade those goods for anything i desire in exchange. i cannot however trade the esteem of the emperor of china to anyone else, even though he gave me all that shit as a gift to display his power and wealth.
likewise a ship full of gold and silver from the new world has value everywhere. the belief among the native tribes that i am Quetzl Coatl or Xipitoltec has very little power as a commodity in london or shanghai
Doer
Well-Known Member
Well, that's right. And how did you end up with that ship? Where you just a beg boy, on the street, and they gave you ship, cargo and crew?
Where you a midshipman, that knew a few jokes and could wield the dirk?
What was it that make them trust you? Or, did you work you ass off in the social group of sea fare? Did you already move past social capital to so much you need a room full of gold? Why would you go?
No, you have amassed enough capital of person, and paid the dues, and now have the BIG CHANCE for shares. It doesn't matter how it works. Even with the headhunter, it works. Capital has nothing to do with markers.
Land and all possessions are markers. But, you rise and sink on personal acumen only. Even in times of giant largess it is very possible to blowitall. Mike Tyson. Bernie Maddoff. on and on.
What was the capital invested by Maro Polo? They could not even carry trade goods. No. His only capital and really the only possible capital is trust, ie, reliability. Polo traded in Knowledge and used Prowess to gain Trust to survive and make it back. Capital, we are so mixed up. And when we lose the true meaning of things, it might be important to revisit.
Think about it. If a kid can't be trusted for what ever reason, he's fucked until he can prove himself trustworthy.
And I don't care how old you are. When you lose the trust you lose the only capital there is. People turn on you and take your markers because you can't have ,markers and commerce with no trust.
So, to me this is not some Neolithic concept we grew from. No, this is today, and all over, not just humans.
Your ship captain didn't buy the chance for shares. He had to see it proven over many tests to be the soul of reliability. He had to gain political horsepower and chutzpah, to even get the chance, Right?
I think we forget where money come form. It comes from capital, not the other way.
And we call the biggest warships, our Capital ships. Why?
Where you a midshipman, that knew a few jokes and could wield the dirk?
What was it that make them trust you? Or, did you work you ass off in the social group of sea fare? Did you already move past social capital to so much you need a room full of gold? Why would you go?
No, you have amassed enough capital of person, and paid the dues, and now have the BIG CHANCE for shares. It doesn't matter how it works. Even with the headhunter, it works. Capital has nothing to do with markers.
Land and all possessions are markers. But, you rise and sink on personal acumen only. Even in times of giant largess it is very possible to blowitall. Mike Tyson. Bernie Maddoff. on and on.
What was the capital invested by Maro Polo? They could not even carry trade goods. No. His only capital and really the only possible capital is trust, ie, reliability. Polo traded in Knowledge and used Prowess to gain Trust to survive and make it back. Capital, we are so mixed up. And when we lose the true meaning of things, it might be important to revisit.
Think about it. If a kid can't be trusted for what ever reason, he's fucked until he can prove himself trustworthy.
And I don't care how old you are. When you lose the trust you lose the only capital there is. People turn on you and take your markers because you can't have ,markers and commerce with no trust.
So, to me this is not some Neolithic concept we grew from. No, this is today, and all over, not just humans.
Your ship captain didn't buy the chance for shares. He had to see it proven over many tests to be the soul of reliability. He had to gain political horsepower and chutzpah, to even get the chance, Right?
I think we forget where money come form. It comes from capital, not the other way.
And we call the biggest warships, our Capital ships. Why?
Doer
Well-Known Member
No, well, maybe. But the metaphor is banking. Barter and the ability to barter comes from on thing only.
Personal capital.
So, the higher ordering is to surface metaphors about capital....but, really for me, political capital on a day to day basis about trust is the actual capital and banking and money are the metaphors.
RyanTheRhino
Well-Known Member
Canna Sylvan
Well-Known Member
During communist Russia, McDonalds converted all their various acquired Russian capital, which was worthless to all but Russia, into bottles of vodka for export.
There has to be something worth converting.