burnseedless
Active Member
I talking beyond the F1, im gonna put up some stuff on it now, let me know what you think?
Why don't Seedbanks state the if the seeds are F1, F2, F3, F4 ect?
- Thread starter burnseedless
- Start date
burnseedless
Active Member
I got this from another site:
Heterzygous - a condition when two genes for a trait are not the same on each member of a pair of
homologous chromosomes; individuals heterozygous for a trait are indicated by an "Aa" or "aA" notation
and are not true breeding for that trait.(Clarke)
Homozygous - the condition existing when the genes for a trait are the same on both chromosomes of a
homologous pair; individuals homozygous for a trait are indicated by "AA" or "aa" and are true breeding
for that trait. (Clarke)
- Now the heterozygous and homozygous terms can be applied to one trait or a group of traits within an
individual or a group of individuals. Depending on your point of reference, an individual or group can be
considered both homozygous or heterozygous. For instance, say you have two individuals that are both
short (S) and have webbed leaves (W) and have the following genotypes.
#1 = SSWW
#2 = SSWw
They are both homozygous for the short trait but only individual #1 is homozygous for the webbed leaf
trait. Individual #2 is heterozygous for the webbed leaf trait and would be considered a heterozygous
individual. As a goup, they would be considered heterozygous in general by some and homozygous by
others. It would depend on your point of reference and the overall importance you place on the webbed
leaf trait. Most would consider it to be heterozygous.
For example, the blueberry cannabis strain is considered a true breeding homozygous seed line because
as a whole the many offspring have a similar look and produce a similar product. However there are
often subtle differences between the plants of characters such as stem colour and potency. When taking
a close look at blueberry, you will find heterozygous traits, but because of the whole overall look, we
still generally consider them homozygous for the purpose of breeding programs. Using dogs is another
way to explain this, take a dobie for example, you can tell the difference between dobies, but you can
tell a dobie from another breed. Ya follow?
Hybrid - An individual produced by crossing two parents of different genotypes. Clarke says
that a hybrid is a heterozygous individual resulting from crossing two seperate strains.
- For the purpose of seedbanks, a hybrid is in general, a cross between any two unrelated seedlines.
ANY HYBRID IS heterozygous and NOT TRUE BREEDING.
F1 hybrid - is the first generation of a cross between any two unrelated seedlines in the creation of a
hybrid. F1 hybrids can be uniform or variable depending on the P1 parent stock used.
F2 hybrid - is the offspring of a cross between two F1 plants (Clarke). What Clarke and other sources
don't make clear is do the two F1's need to be from the same parents? By convention they don't. As
well, german geneticists often describe a backcross of an F1 back to a P1 parent as a F2 cross.
- OK lets say we take blueberry and cross it with romulan (both relatively true breeding of their unique
traits) to create the F1 hybrid romberry. Now lets cross the F1 romberry with a NL/Haze F1 hybrid.
Some could say this is a F1 cross of romberry and NL/Haze. Others could argue that it is a F2 cross
of two F1 hybrids. Gets confusing doesn't it? Now lets cross this Romberry/NL/Haze(RNH) with a
Skunk#1/NL#5 F1 hybrid to create RNHSN. Now some would argue that RNHSN is an F1 hybrid
between RNH and SK/NL seedlines. Others would call it an F2.
- So what does this mean to the consumer? It means that a seed bank can call a cross whatever it wants
until the industry adopts some standards. This is what this article will attempt to initiate. Clarke eludes to
standardising these definitions but never really gets around to it. Fortunately other plant breeding
communities have (Colangelli, Grossnickle&Russell, Watts, &Wright) and adopting their standards
makes the most sense and offers the best protection to the seedbank consumer.
Watts defines an F1 as the heterozygous offspring between two homozygous but unrelated seedlines.
This makes sense and gives the F1 generation a unique combination of traits; uniform phenotype but not
true breeding. This is important in the plant breeding world. This means that when a customer buys F1
seeds that they should expect uniform results. It also means that the breeder's work is protected from
being duplicated by any other means than using the original P1 (true breeding parents). [There are
exceptions to this by using techniques such as repeated backcrosses (cubing the clone)]
F2 crosses are the offspring of crossing two F1 hybrids. This means that they will not be uniform nor
will they breed true. However, F3, F4, F5, etc will also share these characteristics, so to simplify
terminology for the seedbanks and seedbank merchants, they can all be classified as F2 seeds in general.
What does this mean for the preceeding example? Well, the blueberry, romulan, skunk#1, NL#5, and
haze were all P1 true breeding seedlines or strains (another term that needs clarification). Romberry,
NL/Haze, and SK/NL were all F1 hybrids. Both the Romberry/NL/Haze and the RNHSN would be F2s.
Within each group the consumer can know what to expect for the price they are paying.
Few cannabis seedbanks (if any) and their breeders are following these definitions and are subsequently
creating confusion within the cannabis seedbuying community. This is a change that needs to happen
The subtlety of the F2 definition needs a bit more clarification IMO. I suggest the convention that an F2 be the
offspring of members from the same F1 generation. Using your F1 Romberry example, an F2 Romberry is the
offspring of two F1 Romberry parents. Your mixed F2 hybrids are what most of us have been simply referring to
as a “multi-way” hybrid. But technically you’re right that it’s an F2 because it is a generation created by two F1
generations.
The recombination potential of these two types of F2 should be emphasized. While an F2 Romberry may exhibit
traits ranging over all the possibilities inherent in the genetic palette of Romulan and Blueberry, the "mixed F2" has
almost infinitely more possible genetic recombinations due to the larger genepool of NL, SK#1, Haze, Romulan
and Blueberry.
Having made the above clarifications to your comments, I’d like to expand on the subject of F2’s just a bit. More
people should be aware of the IMPORTANCE of the F2 generation in breeding.
It's easy to be confused by terms that have more than one interpretation, depending on the context. F2 seeds are
generally considered by the seed-buying public to be an inferior product. This may be a true statement – for
example, in the case of a seed bank selling Jack Herer seeds WITHOUT STATING that they were created by
crossing two Jack Herer plants from Sensi Seed Bank’s F1 stock. These seeds are an F2 generation of Jack Herer
in the classic definition of the term. The F2 generation is NOT going to produce the same results as the F1 in
terms of the similarity of the plants in the group…they will vary in their characteristics rather than all of them
being essentially identical. Such a scam rips off the buyer expecting a uniform crop of Jack Herer.
Now here’s the “kicker” – because of the negative connotation of the example of an F2 above, some have the
mistaken impression that any member of the F2 generation is undesirable as a plant. This is NOT necessarily true.
Quite the contrary; the F2 generation is a treasure trove of possibilities. The recombination of genes produces a
variety of different plants, among which there may be individuals of great value. This is actually the source for
future true-breeding strains. A breeder who recognizes an outstanding and unique individual from an F2 group can
work with it to create a true-breeding hybrid strain such as was done with classics like Skunk #1 and Northern
Lights. The methods to accomplish this task vary, but back crossing to the original unique plant is typically a part
of a process which ultimately must accomplish the goal of creating a strain which breeds true for all the important
traits which made the unique individual so valuable.
I hope the above will enlighten.
Heterzygous - a condition when two genes for a trait are not the same on each member of a pair of
homologous chromosomes; individuals heterozygous for a trait are indicated by an "Aa" or "aA" notation
and are not true breeding for that trait.(Clarke)
Homozygous - the condition existing when the genes for a trait are the same on both chromosomes of a
homologous pair; individuals homozygous for a trait are indicated by "AA" or "aa" and are true breeding
for that trait. (Clarke)
- Now the heterozygous and homozygous terms can be applied to one trait or a group of traits within an
individual or a group of individuals. Depending on your point of reference, an individual or group can be
considered both homozygous or heterozygous. For instance, say you have two individuals that are both
short (S) and have webbed leaves (W) and have the following genotypes.
#1 = SSWW
#2 = SSWw
They are both homozygous for the short trait but only individual #1 is homozygous for the webbed leaf
trait. Individual #2 is heterozygous for the webbed leaf trait and would be considered a heterozygous
individual. As a goup, they would be considered heterozygous in general by some and homozygous by
others. It would depend on your point of reference and the overall importance you place on the webbed
leaf trait. Most would consider it to be heterozygous.
For example, the blueberry cannabis strain is considered a true breeding homozygous seed line because
as a whole the many offspring have a similar look and produce a similar product. However there are
often subtle differences between the plants of characters such as stem colour and potency. When taking
a close look at blueberry, you will find heterozygous traits, but because of the whole overall look, we
still generally consider them homozygous for the purpose of breeding programs. Using dogs is another
way to explain this, take a dobie for example, you can tell the difference between dobies, but you can
tell a dobie from another breed. Ya follow?
Hybrid - An individual produced by crossing two parents of different genotypes. Clarke says
that a hybrid is a heterozygous individual resulting from crossing two seperate strains.
- For the purpose of seedbanks, a hybrid is in general, a cross between any two unrelated seedlines.
ANY HYBRID IS heterozygous and NOT TRUE BREEDING.
F1 hybrid - is the first generation of a cross between any two unrelated seedlines in the creation of a
hybrid. F1 hybrids can be uniform or variable depending on the P1 parent stock used.
F2 hybrid - is the offspring of a cross between two F1 plants (Clarke). What Clarke and other sources
don't make clear is do the two F1's need to be from the same parents? By convention they don't. As
well, german geneticists often describe a backcross of an F1 back to a P1 parent as a F2 cross.
- OK lets say we take blueberry and cross it with romulan (both relatively true breeding of their unique
traits) to create the F1 hybrid romberry. Now lets cross the F1 romberry with a NL/Haze F1 hybrid.
Some could say this is a F1 cross of romberry and NL/Haze. Others could argue that it is a F2 cross
of two F1 hybrids. Gets confusing doesn't it? Now lets cross this Romberry/NL/Haze(RNH) with a
Skunk#1/NL#5 F1 hybrid to create RNHSN. Now some would argue that RNHSN is an F1 hybrid
between RNH and SK/NL seedlines. Others would call it an F2.
- So what does this mean to the consumer? It means that a seed bank can call a cross whatever it wants
until the industry adopts some standards. This is what this article will attempt to initiate. Clarke eludes to
standardising these definitions but never really gets around to it. Fortunately other plant breeding
communities have (Colangelli, Grossnickle&Russell, Watts, &Wright) and adopting their standards
makes the most sense and offers the best protection to the seedbank consumer.
Watts defines an F1 as the heterozygous offspring between two homozygous but unrelated seedlines.
This makes sense and gives the F1 generation a unique combination of traits; uniform phenotype but not
true breeding. This is important in the plant breeding world. This means that when a customer buys F1
seeds that they should expect uniform results. It also means that the breeder's work is protected from
being duplicated by any other means than using the original P1 (true breeding parents). [There are
exceptions to this by using techniques such as repeated backcrosses (cubing the clone)]
F2 crosses are the offspring of crossing two F1 hybrids. This means that they will not be uniform nor
will they breed true. However, F3, F4, F5, etc will also share these characteristics, so to simplify
terminology for the seedbanks and seedbank merchants, they can all be classified as F2 seeds in general.
What does this mean for the preceeding example? Well, the blueberry, romulan, skunk#1, NL#5, and
haze were all P1 true breeding seedlines or strains (another term that needs clarification). Romberry,
NL/Haze, and SK/NL were all F1 hybrids. Both the Romberry/NL/Haze and the RNHSN would be F2s.
Within each group the consumer can know what to expect for the price they are paying.
Few cannabis seedbanks (if any) and their breeders are following these definitions and are subsequently
creating confusion within the cannabis seedbuying community. This is a change that needs to happen
The subtlety of the F2 definition needs a bit more clarification IMO. I suggest the convention that an F2 be the
offspring of members from the same F1 generation. Using your F1 Romberry example, an F2 Romberry is the
offspring of two F1 Romberry parents. Your mixed F2 hybrids are what most of us have been simply referring to
as a “multi-way” hybrid. But technically you’re right that it’s an F2 because it is a generation created by two F1
generations.
The recombination potential of these two types of F2 should be emphasized. While an F2 Romberry may exhibit
traits ranging over all the possibilities inherent in the genetic palette of Romulan and Blueberry, the "mixed F2" has
almost infinitely more possible genetic recombinations due to the larger genepool of NL, SK#1, Haze, Romulan
and Blueberry.
Having made the above clarifications to your comments, I’d like to expand on the subject of F2’s just a bit. More
people should be aware of the IMPORTANCE of the F2 generation in breeding.
It's easy to be confused by terms that have more than one interpretation, depending on the context. F2 seeds are
generally considered by the seed-buying public to be an inferior product. This may be a true statement – for
example, in the case of a seed bank selling Jack Herer seeds WITHOUT STATING that they were created by
crossing two Jack Herer plants from Sensi Seed Bank’s F1 stock. These seeds are an F2 generation of Jack Herer
in the classic definition of the term. The F2 generation is NOT going to produce the same results as the F1 in
terms of the similarity of the plants in the group…they will vary in their characteristics rather than all of them
being essentially identical. Such a scam rips off the buyer expecting a uniform crop of Jack Herer.
Now here’s the “kicker” – because of the negative connotation of the example of an F2 above, some have the
mistaken impression that any member of the F2 generation is undesirable as a plant. This is NOT necessarily true.
Quite the contrary; the F2 generation is a treasure trove of possibilities. The recombination of genes produces a
variety of different plants, among which there may be individuals of great value. This is actually the source for
future true-breeding strains. A breeder who recognizes an outstanding and unique individual from an F2 group can
work with it to create a true-breeding hybrid strain such as was done with classics like Skunk #1 and Northern
Lights. The methods to accomplish this task vary, but back crossing to the original unique plant is typically a part
of a process which ultimately must accomplish the goal of creating a strain which breeds true for all the important
traits which made the unique individual so valuable.
I hope the above will enlighten.
BDOGKush
Well-Known Member
Sure, you've got me curious. F2 should be the second generation of an inbred line, F3s the third generation ect.
burnseedless
Active Member
All my friends who breed tell me the F1's is the choice for breeding. The rest are ok if your gonna just grow but to each their own.
BDOGKush
Well-Known Member
Sorry posted before I saw your newest post. It seems what they're saying is that some breeders and banks are not following genetic classification which is causing confusion and that they believe like I do that they should follow the correct definitions of genetic classifications.
Breeding your F1s to create F2s you'll get a large variation of phenotypes.
Edit: like purple said, most of the seeds you buy are F1s, F2s will give you a lot of variation.
For breeding I'd want homozygous genes which you get from interbreeding, the more you interbreed the more homozygous the genes become, like Black Rose that I used as an example 7 generations of interbreeding later and the purple trait has become pure. That way when you breed the plant you can predict what traits will be passed down from each parent. The resulting F1s of two homozygous pure lines would give you limited phenotype variation.
Breeding your F1s to create F2s you'll get a large variation of phenotypes.
Edit: like purple said, most of the seeds you buy are F1s, F2s will give you a lot of variation.
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skunkd0c
Well-Known Member
if the parents are selected carefully an F1 hybrid created from two distinct Inbred lines
where both parents have been inbreed and selected to uniformly pass on desired traits
the F1 generation will express more vigour than each of the parents themselves
this gain in vigour is one of the goals of creating an F1 hybrid
this vigour can be lost over f2 f3 generations
this is not the same as some random indica p1 x sativa p2 which amounts for much of what is offered today
where the parent lines for many crosses where selected from 50 or less plants without any inbreeding of the p1 and p2 lines
where both parents have been inbreed and selected to uniformly pass on desired traits
the F1 generation will express more vigour than each of the parents themselves
this gain in vigour is one of the goals of creating an F1 hybrid
this vigour can be lost over f2 f3 generations
this is not the same as some random indica p1 x sativa p2 which amounts for much of what is offered today
where the parent lines for many crosses where selected from 50 or less plants without any inbreeding of the p1 and p2 lines
burnseedless
Active Member
Thats why my friends say F1's the Keepers the vigour in the plants...
skunkd0c
Well-Known Member
True F1 hybrids are rare from what i can gather it can take many years just to create one of the IBL parent lines so that it is consistent and true breeding with the traits you want
these days breeding is more about trying to make a seed version of a clone only
skunkd0c
Well-Known Member
i think its more pollen chucking vs pollen chucking
where are the breeders hiding LOL
gabechihua
Well-Known Member
"True" F1 hybrid? Sounds like something some random stoner made up while he was expanding upon his endless knowledge of breeding. An F1 is simply the first generation of a cross between two unrelated seedlines, no need to over complicate it. When will stoners ever stop making up their own definitions of breeding?
skunkd0c
Well-Known Member
a random F1 created from random parent lines can be created by anyone with two plants
the opposite extreme is an F1 that has been created where the parents were both IBL
and selected from much larger stock
this is not complex i'm sure most of the RIU members can grasp this
i used the word "true" to separate the two extremes, again i do not think this is complex
and i do not think i am the first to make this distinction
peace
Sativied
Well-Known Member
Many of the strains commercially available just aren't F1, F2, F3 etc but B1-4 for example.
Even wiki is enough for this, ""while in plant and animal genetics the parents usually are two inbred lines." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F1_hybrid
"Usually inbred lines" because that's the common way to create homozygous lines. Crossing those homozygous strains is what creating an F1 hybrid is all about. Crossing two unstable lines (which is more like crossing hybrids, or crossing crosses...) creates more variation and is a step that belongs before creating the Ps that create the F1.
Edit: fucked up that last line, but fuck it... you get the point.
Funny, as your definition of F1 is the actually the by stoners accepted version and the reason why "true" is sometimes necessary to indicate what it really is, a cross of two stable lines, stable as in homozygous.
Even wiki is enough for this, ""while in plant and animal genetics the parents usually are two inbred lines." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F1_hybrid
"Usually inbred lines" because that's the common way to create homozygous lines. Crossing those homozygous strains is what creating an F1 hybrid is all about. Crossing two unstable lines (which is more like crossing hybrids, or crossing crosses...) creates more variation and is a step that belongs before creating the Ps that create the F1.
Edit: fucked up that last line, but fuck it... you get the point.
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gabechihua
Well-Known Member
Never said there was anything complex about the concept. What I meant was so many stoners are in a hurry to over complicate the simple process of breeding and add their own definitions to what constitutes the breeding process.
BDOGKush
Well-Known Member
lol agreed seems to be a lot of pollen chucking anymore.
gabechihua
Well-Known Member
That quote does nothing to prove your point. They are not defining a difference between a so called "true" F1 and so called "random" F1, they are just saying two inbred lines are usually used.
skunkd0c
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the clarification mate,
the point i was making is many people will say a F1 does not have any uniformity
but this is not because it is an F1
breeding has many goals and uniformity is not always the goal
however if two desired traits maybe taste (lemon or whatever and potency
if both parent lines are selected so both show lemon traits in the parent then inbreed until this is stable
when both these parent lines are crossed to produce the F1 hybrid all offspring will exhibit the lemon trait with potency regardless of which parent the offspring take after
it is creating these stable traits in the parent lines first that creates a stable F1 hybrid that expresses these traits
and this is what many breeders are not doing they are not selecting quality true breeding parent lines
as this takes time
peace
skunkd0c
Well-Known Member
whatever sells .. i guess
gabechihua
Well-Known Member
Link me to a definition of F1 that states two stable lines must be used, you failed with your wikipedia link.
purplehays1
Well-Known Member
Im pretty sure a lot of what has been said in incorrect....
When u say a F7 hybrid i think what u mean is an F1 hybrid that has come from selectively inbred parents.
"For mass-production of F1 hybrids with uniform phenotype, the parent plants must have predictable genetic effects on the offspring. Inbreeding and selection for uniformity for multiple generations ensures that the parent lines are almost homozygous. The divergence between the (two) parent lines promotes improved growth and yield characteristics in offspring through the phenomenon of heterosis ("hybrid vigour" or "combining ability").
Two populations of breeding stock with desired characteristics are subjected to inbreeding until the homozygosity of the population exceeds a certain level, usually 90% or more. Typically this requires more than ten generations. Thereafter the two strains must be crossed, while avoiding self-fertilization. Normally this happens in plants by deactivating or removing male flowers from one population, taking advantage of time differences between male and female flowering or hand-pollinating.[4]"
When u say a F7 hybrid i think what u mean is an F1 hybrid that has come from selectively inbred parents.
"For mass-production of F1 hybrids with uniform phenotype, the parent plants must have predictable genetic effects on the offspring. Inbreeding and selection for uniformity for multiple generations ensures that the parent lines are almost homozygous. The divergence between the (two) parent lines promotes improved growth and yield characteristics in offspring through the phenomenon of heterosis ("hybrid vigour" or "combining ability").
Two populations of breeding stock with desired characteristics are subjected to inbreeding until the homozygosity of the population exceeds a certain level, usually 90% or more. Typically this requires more than ten generations. Thereafter the two strains must be crossed, while avoiding self-fertilization. Normally this happens in plants by deactivating or removing male flowers from one population, taking advantage of time differences between male and female flowering or hand-pollinating.[4]"