Why so Many Haters on the SOG Method??

panhead said:

First off understand one thing & that is 99.9% of all hydro shop employees are not your friend,mentor,teacher ect,nor is their supposed grow advice to be used,their mission is to sell you goods & equipment,even the salesmen who use big words & sound to the layman grower to be highly experienced should not be listened to,ive personaly found that most employees of hydro shops only know what sales & marketing videos,literature & rosebud magazine ( AN marketing gimmik ) has taught them.

Ask yourself one question while listening to those hydro shop experts & that question is this,if their growing experience is so great what & the fuk are they doing working at a store for minimum wage instead of tending garden full time ?

However in your case i think the advice of a 2 week veg time is spot on & i will explain why,in order to have a sog where per plant harvest weights are acceptable the plant needs to be approx 8 to 12 inchs tall before starting the bud phase,another reason is the node structure of the plant.

The whole idea behind sog is to cultivate one single very large cola from each plant,if the clone used was not large enough & node development isnt enough you could end up with very small colas instead of the monster colas sog will yeild.

The way to assure a large size cola at harvest is to assure the clones used are of size & if they are too small then allow for a short veg time to allow growth & node development.

My advice is for you not to go sog your 1st time at bat for several reasons,every grower should be familiar with all stages of plant growth,they should watch the entire process from start to finish,including a veg period,this saves hundreds of questions later on,its one thing to know how to do something but its another thing all together to know why to do things,thats the experience that can only be gained by 1st hand experience.

Growing sog the 1st time out isnt your best bet.

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very well put man + rep

panhead said:

Growing sog the 1st time out isnt your best bet.

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Bit surprised to see you say that, panster. I find SoG to be a real no-brainer. If you cookbook it from those who have it nailed down, it's hard to have it go wrong.

I also have to register a dissent on vegging before flowering. The result will be tall plants, which defeats the purpose of SoG, that being to get the main flowering mass in the sweet spot of lighting coverage.

didnt read everything but, 4 plants per square foot seems a bit much.

I'm working on my AL B Fuct scrog at the moment. Just completed the vegging cabinet, including light, fan and digital timer.
Started from seeds about 4 weeks ago, but they are still quite small as I nuked them a little when they were little. 2 plants are standing out growth wise, and seems to be a more indica dominant, fatter leaf. ( I harvested the seeds from a purple sativa cola.) I had to build my own flood trays useing chipboard and fibreglass and resin. But my plants are not quite big enough for it, or maybe they are, but I am STILL waiting on my ballasts, if they take much longer I will just place the plants outside when I want to go into 12/12 as we are midway trough autumn here, we never get snow or frost. (I've never seen a frosted plant in real life before, but, neither have I ever played in snow). For now I'm just growing, what should include a few moms.

I want 9 clones on 3 weekly rotation, would 4 moms be enough?

dababydroman said:

didnt read everything but, 4 plants per square foot seems a bit much.

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It's about as high a density as I'd ever attempt. It'll work, though.

ANC said:

I'm working on my AL B Fuct scrog

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There is no such thing, but rotsaruck.

If anyone has questions or comments specifically for me, please direct them to me in this thread. Don't want to flood out OP's thread & I'm more likely to see your comments.

Al B. Fuct said:

Bit surprised to see you say that, panster. I find SoG to be a real no-brainer. If you cookbook it from those who have it nailed down, it's hard to have it go wrong.

I also have to register a dissent on vegging before flowering. The result will be tall plants, which defeats the purpose of SoG, that being to get the main flowering mass in the sweet spot of lighting coverage.

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Morning Al,your right to be suprised seeing how i normaly advocate your sog methods so often,the reason i dont think its a good method for a 1st grow is its too much for a complete newb,everybody wants to be a weed baron their 1st time at bat,just learning the basic requirements of getting grow #1 from start to finish is alot to swallow for people growing their very 1st plant.

When we all 1st joined here & you started teaching the 1st generation of us who use your methods i struggled,even with you holding our hands i made assloads of mistakes,if i had not had so much prior experience with large number full plant soil grows it woulda been much harder for me,when you 1st started teaching us i understood why to do, or not to do the things you spelled out for us, i knew from prior experience what effects certian actions would have on plant growth,i also knew what a healthy plant looked like,had i not been familiar with how plants grow i would'nt have been equiped to fight the battles that go hand in hand with sog.

Clone veg is something i dont think can be put into a yes or no catagory with sog,since the size of the initial clone determins final plant height & cola size putting clones that are too small straight into bud seriously lowers harvest weights,a vegged clone will create a taller plant i agree but it will also allow the clone time to build itself up enough to create a larger cola.

My application of your methods of single cola plants is this, we want the cola to be in the optimal light & that factor is a must for dense buds,by letting the smaller clone veg & build we raise overall plant height but the sweet spot from the light stays the same,even with a taller plant.

As long as an even canopy is achived getting proper light to the bud mass is the same in a 18 inch plant as well as a 26 inch plant,the distance from the bottom of the cola to the table should be irrelevant,am i correct ?

I really believe that every new grower should start out slow,learn about npk values & how to apply different ratios in order to get best results,see a healthy plant go thru all phases of growth to harvest before they jump into a world full of snake oil & gimmicks,without that background its very easy to be overwhelmed once problems such as powdery mildew,nute burn,over watering,spider mites & high humidity arise.

I dont get a chance to talk to you much anymore cause i dont want to take away from your time helping newbs but correct me if im wrong in how ive applied the methods you taught me,i dont think we'd be hijacking the thread as any discussion would apply to the op's questions.

Thanks for your thoughts, panster!

I'll definitely concede the point that as goes the clone so goes the harvest. If you muck it up at the beginning, you can't expect top performance at the other end of the chain. However, if you've gotten the clone watering right (the most fiddly part of cloning) and get the freshly rooted clones into pots of media PROMPTLY after they get a decent spray of roots out of their cubes, the rest of it is pretty easy. Also, growing one good clone is as easy as growing 30. Upside to doing 30 (when you only need 24, as is my case) is that you can afford to have a few failures with no tears.

As regards the problems you'll run into downstream i.e. powdery mildew, mites, nute burn, overwatering, etc etc, these are things you'll encounter in smaller, non-SoG grows, too- and the ways of addressing them remains the same. About the only SoG specific problem one needs to learn how to fix is pest control without trashing all the plants. Continuous harvest ops' greatest Achilles' heel is eradicating pests whilst keeping the op running full tilt. It's too time-costly to get rid of all the plants & start over simply due to a pest infiltration.

I suppose my point is that you're going to run into problems whether you're doing a continuous harvest SoG or just a few plants. May as well go big or go home.

Now, as regards vegging before flowering- adding a vegetative growth period will make the plants get taller, and yes, will create more node points for buds, but artificial lighting has limits regarding the depth of foliar penetration. Does little good to have a tall plant if the light from above can't get through the canopy to the lower buds which a veg period created. A simple rule of thumb- vegging light cycle makes plants tall, flowering light cycle makes buds.

I really believe it's possible for a complete noob to run a SoG op successfully if they can follow a set of instructions. And yes, I'm aware that by saying that, someone will pipe up & say 'SO WHY DON'T YOU WRITE A GROW BOOK, AL?! CHASING ALL THE DETAILS AROUND THROUGH THOUSANDS OF POSTS IN A CANNABIS FORUM IS MADDENINGLY IMPOSSIBLE!' Good point, and I may do just that one of these days... soon as I get all the other things in my life done...

Be sure to let us know if and when you do this. I would buy it today, I have stinkbud's book on preorder.

Thanks for that, but in the age of filesharing, I'd sell 1 copy... and then everybody & his dog would have a copy before sunset. There's also complications with getting paid for the work without revealing my identity. Not such a big deal in the US but here in Aus, selling a book describing how to commit unlawful acts is a crime in and of itself. Could get me about 5 years, plus 20 or so for my own grow op. If anyone can work out these details for me, I'll have 20,000 words written by the end of the week!

Al, you've already written the book - just need someone to compile your posts and edit them to be a proper manuscript Glad to see you around and hope all's well with you and yours

Also Al, I need to veg my clones for about 10 days before flowering because I don't cut those monstrous clones that you do

Agree that SOG (perpetual) is prolly not for first timers, just in the fact that keeping a perpetual grow's timing takes a little bit of skill and planning that I didn't have when I first started.

Then there's the guys who started growing large plants, were happy with their yields and never tried anything new............and are the most hard-headed and "anti-SOG" because they refuse to believe there could be a better method than their own.

Of course there's the med cats who (rightfully so) need to maintain plant counts so grow large plants - more power to them, if that was an option where I live I'd throw my PVC in the trash tomorrow and grow legal trees.

I've always run SOGs in some form or fashion (and did 9/sf fairly easily in 4" pots - 142 in a 4x4 that worked out okay for being totally neglected), but for the past year and change I've been trying to perfect my VSOG machine.........before anyone rips my head off for my plant counts, there's 90 clones that get flowered out and 8 mothers vegging (so I have one plant of wiggle room to keep it under triple digits)......shooting for 5.5lbs. from 1800 watts of lighting this run (best run to date was a smidge under 5lbs., but they've been getting sucesssively better each time.........funny how that happens).....

Al B. Fuct said:

Thanks for that, but in the age of filesharing, I'd sell 1 copy... and then everybody & his dog would have a copy before sunset. There's also complications with getting paid for the work without revealing my identity. Not such a big deal in the US but here in Aus, selling a book describing how to commit unlawful acts is a crime in and of itself. Could get me about 5 years, plus 20 or so for my own grow op. If anyone can work out these details for me, I'll have 20,000 words written by the end of the week!

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You are the man Al! Thanks for all you've done here on Rollitup!

Too bad the risks are so great for you. I understand completely though and think you are making the right decision. I'll say a prayer for all our Aussie brothers!

Bob Smith said:

Al, you've already written the book - just need someone to compile your posts and edit them to be a proper manuscript

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Probably true. The nut is that for all the things I've written on the topic, there's usually more that I've omitted because it was irrelevant to put in a reply on a given query.

Glad to see you around and hope all's well with you and yours

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Thanks- indeed, all's well.

Also Al, I need to veg my clones for about 10 days before flowering because I don't cut those monstrous clones that you do

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If you feel compelled to do so, fine, but this kinda throws a wrench in the gears of the timing of a SoG op.

Agree that SOG (perpetual) is prolly not for first timers, just in the fact that keeping a perpetual grow's timing takes a little bit of skill and planning that I didn't have when I first started.

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The thing that trips up most new growers is cloning. If you're not getting batches of clones ready to plant out in 14-15 days, that will break the chain.

Then there's the guys who started growing large plants, were happy with their yields and never tried anything new............and are the most hard-headed and "anti-SOG" because they refuse to believe there could be a better method than their own.

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These are also the ppl who don't mind putting time into manicuring wispy lower buds that yield next to nothing due to being located out of the best of the light coverage pattern.

Of course there's the med cats who (rightfully so) need to maintain plant counts so grow large plants - more power to them, if that was an option where I live I'd throw my PVC in the trash tomorrow and grow legal trees.

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That's a fair objection to using the high plant numbers necessary in SoG.

Mind you, even if I lived in a place in the US where there was a state MMJ scheme in place, I would not participate/conform to the state rules- not on grower registration nor on plant counts. As long as cannabis is still illegal per the feds, they can come in & bust you even if you scrupulously conform to the state regs. If you have provided your contact details etc. to the state, there's really nothing stopping the feds from obtaining that data and making an example of you. I don't trust any of the fuckers and I wouldn't even consider making it that easy for them.

I've always run SOGs in some form or fashion (and did 9/sf fairly easily in 4" pots - 142 in a 4x4 that worked out okay for being totally neglected), but for the past year and change I've been trying to perfect my VSOG machine.........before anyone rips my head off for my plant counts, there's 90 clones that get flowered out and 8 mothers vegging (so I have one plant of wiggle room to keep it under triple digits)......shooting for 5.5lbs. from 1800 watts of lighting this run (best run to date was a smidge under 5lbs., but they've been getting sucesssively better each time.........funny how that happens).....

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I do like the concept of a vertical grow; Light is always more intense when the plants get it straight from the lamp instead of bouncing off a reflector. Downsides are more plant access is more difficult as is setup and maintenance. Remember, I am a stoned slacker and hard work scares me!

StinkBud said:

You are the man Al! Thanks for all you've done here on Rollitup!

Too bad the risks are so great for you. I understand completely though and think you are making the right decision. I'll say a prayer for all our Aussie brothers!

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Thanks, Sir Stinky.

I'd love to crank out a book on growing cannabis. It wouldn't be the first book I've published, but it'd certainly be the most fun.

well lets face it, the noobs that are on their first grow have a hard enough time growing, they panic when they see 1 yellow leaf at the bottom of a plant, or maybe a dot of death on 1 leaf, or whatever it might be this time. people are so focused on the pH and the watering and soil and the temps during their first time that they dont have time to try anything cool like SOG. hell, let alone take a scissor to a plant, it seems crazy!

SOG and other advanced methods are just that, advanced. i recall pacing around for a good 30 minutes when i first read about sog and topping and wasnt sure if i should do that. did the guy at the hydroshop tell me about it? hell no, everything i needed to learn about growing i probably learned here.

lets face it, doing it the old fashioned way sucks. i will never grow a plant again that i havent put a screen over, or tied down, after cutting it repeatedly.

Mary jane is a dirty dirty girl and she likes to be tied down, cut, and mistreated.

@ bob smith: thats pretty cool dude. sweet set up.
@ suTraGrow: wtf man, how long are those nugs when ya cut them off? a few feet?

i personally like to keep mine short and bushy, perhaps 4 feet tall, but around 4 feet wide, and with atleast 8 tops. i guess it really comes down to what space we have and how we can macguyver a grow into it.

anyone care to comment on how many nodes a clone should have in a SOG prior to throwing it into flower?