weedstoner420
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Dunning–Kruger effect - Wikipedia
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Why some still Don't grow Organically?
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Funkentelechy
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Have you heard of the concept of terroir?
Ask a professional vintner if the same variety of grapes grown using completely different inputs would taste exactly the same. Honestly, pot forums are the only place that I have heard this opinion. People here reference phenotypical expression all the time, how can you believe in phenotypical expression but not believe that what we feed our plants can have an effect on them? I'm not saying better or worse, that's down to preference, but definitely different. Taste is subjective, what works for me may not work for you that's part of being human. If you prefer pot grown using non-organic fertilizers then go with that. It's your pot.
Choosing to grow organically for me is not a purity test, it's not a matter of being cool, and I'm not here to say that anyone here is a bad person for choosing to grow using non-organic inputs. Everyone should be growing in the way that they feel produces the best quality independent of what other people think. I don't sell pot so I'm not trying to impress anyone or prove anything to anybody. But, I do believe that in a blind taste test the vast majority of people here could taste the difference between two buds grown using different inputs. Respectfully.
Happy growing!
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Terroir, is more referring to the mineral composition of the soil and general environment the plants are grown in no?
You can affect the mineral content of soils organically or synthetically? so not sure what that has to do with it?
Feeding citrates, fulvates, ethanoates(acetates) aminos can be done alongside a synthetic based feed.
weedstoner420
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Thundercat
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I believe the point that was being made is you won’t be able to tell which one is grown organic and which one is grown with bottles nutes.
phenotypical expression can definitely be effected by what you feed, but I don’t believe it’s not directly related to whether it’s “organic” or not.
If you mixed up the best organic soil or nutes and did a chem analysis on it and then fed another plant in the same environment with the equivalent liquid mineral profile I feel very confident the plants would be nearly identical.
Funkentelechy
Well-Known Member
Terrior is a term referring to a broad spectrum of environmental factors.
"Terroir describes the environmental factors that affect a crop's phenotype, including unique environment contexts, farming practices and a crop's specific growth habitat."
What is terroir and how does it affect wine?
www.wineinvestment.com
There have been many comments about how a plant can't tell the difference, or care what form the nutrients it receives come in. This is assuming that the plant is only consuming the nitrogen, phosphorus, and or potassium from the fertilizer(s) that we give the plant, which is a big assumption. We as growers focus on NPK because they are the primary nutrients, but when we feed a plant anything there are other things that are being absorbed by the plant, especially when comparing an organic fertilizer with a chemical based one. Everything that we do, every input has an effect on the character of the plant. No two plants grown using different fertilizers, whether they be chemical or organic in origin, even if they have the same NPK, will produce an identical end "product". I use the term "product" broadly to describe the end result of your and the plant's efforts. Not a "product" in the retail sense.
There are so many other factors involved when we feed a plant. I don't know if there are any chemical fertilizers that are 100% nitrogen, phosphorus, or potassium, with no carriers fillers, or emulsifiers, but there definitely aren't any organic fertilizers like that. There are always other things(other than NPK) that are in every input, these things are consumed by the plant and also affect the character of a plant(Terroir). Whether a plant can tell the difference between different sources of NPK is somewhat irrelevant when you factor in the fact that NPK are not the only things that a plant absorbs when we feed them, particularly in regard to organic inputs.
"You can affect the mineral content of soils organically or synthetically? so not sure what that has to do with it?"
Absolutely, the concept of terroir is not exclusive to organic or chemical growing methods, but what are the chances that through using two different fertilizers one organic, and one chemical, you would end up with the same exact mineral or micronutrient content? It seems unlikely that through using any two different fertilizers you could ever end up with the same exact content in the exact same quantities being absorbed at the same rates, period, but especially if one plant was being fed organic fertilizers and the other synthetic/chemical.
I suppose if you were growing two plants hydroponically in the same room using two different chemical fertilizers that were both 100% pure, with no fillers, carriers, or emulsifiers, and the same exact micronutrient product, that you could create two buds that were indistinguishable. But then again are two different chemical fertilizers with the exact same nutrient content actually two different fertilizers or just the same chemical with different labels on them?
The whole "a plant can't tell the difference is somewhat moot when you factor in that it's really never only the NPK in a fertilizer that a plant is consumes, plants don't only select those three nutrients out of a fertilizer and leave the rest. Especially if you get into things like Biodynamic, No-till, veganetic, etc.
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Are you assuming these vineyards whether organic or synthetic aren't testing there soils and adding fertillizers according to what there soil holds and needs rather that broadcasting a general all purpose fertillizer ala shotgun approach?Terrior is a term referring to a broad spectrum of environmental factors.
"Terroir describes the environmental factors that affect a crop's phenotype, including unique environment contexts, farming practices and a crop's specific growth habitat."
What is terroir and how does it affect wine?
There have been many comments about how a plant can't tell the difference, or care what form the nutrients it receives come in. This is assuming that the plant is only consuming the nitrogen, phosphorus, and or potassium from the fertilizer(s) that we give the plant, which is a big assumption. We as growers focus on NPK because they are the primary nutrients, but when we feed a plant anything there are other things that are being absorbed by the plant, especially when comparing an organic fertilizer with a chemical based one. Everything that we do, every input has an effect on the character of the plant. No two plants grown using different fertilizers, whether they be chemical or organic in origin, even if they have the same NPK, will produce an identical end "product". I use the term "product" broadly to describe the end result of your and the plant's efforts. Not a "product" in the retail sense.
There are so many other factors involved when we feed a plant. I don't know if there are any chemical fertilizers that are 100% nitrogen, phosphorus, or potassium, with no carriers fillers, or emulsifiers, but there definitely aren't any organic fertilizers like that. There are always other things(other than NPK) that are in every input, these things are consumed by the plant and also affect the character of a plant(Terroir). Whether a plant can tell the difference between different sources of NPK is somewhat irrelevant when you factor in the fact that NPK are not the only things that a plant absorbs when we feed them, particularly in regard to organic inputs.
"You can affect the mineral content of soils organically or synthetically? so not sure what that has to do with it?"
Absolutely, the concept of terroir is not exclusive to organic or chemical growing methods, but what are the chances that through using two different fertilizers one organic, and one chemical, you would end up with the same exact mineral or micronutrient content? It seems unlikely that through using any two different fertilizers you could ever end up with the same exact content in the exact same quantities being absorbed at the same rates, period, but especially if one plant was being fed organic fertilizers and the other synthetic/chemical.
I suppose if you were growing two plants hydroponically in the same room using two different chemical fertilizers that were both 100% pure, with no fillers, carriers, or emulsifiers, and the same exact micronutrient product, that you could create two buds that were indistinguishable. But then again are two different chemical fertilizers with the exact same nutrient content actually two different fertilizers or just the same chemical with different labels on them?
The whole "a plant can't tell the difference is somewhat moot when you factor in that it's really never only the NPK in a fertilizer that a plant is consumes, plants don't only select those three nutrients out of a fertilizer and leave the rest. Especially if you get into things like Biodynamic, No-till, veganetic, etc.
I'm just confused as to what you think the plants are missing? it's always alluded to but we should be specific?
Funkentelechy
Well-Known Member
Perhaps I've done a poor job articulating my point, or maybe I just don't understand your question. I apologize if I'm missing something.
I don't think the plants are missing anything, and I would assume that most if not all vineyards do test their soil.
No two vineyards even if growing the same variety of grapes will produce identical tasting grapes because you could never replicate the exact environmental factors from one vineyard to another. Or more specifically to your question(I think?) replicate the soil from one vineyard to another, even if you test the soil and amend it according to the needs of the plant. A soil test does not allow you to exactly replicate the same soil from vineyard to vineyard, you can add amendments all day long. Even commercial bagged soil from the same company has some tiny variance from year to year.
But, my original point wasn't specific to soil and terroir involves more than soil, it's any and all environmental factors and how they affect the character of the crop. Two identical plants grown using different inputs will produce different bud. Plants uptake more than NPK from the inputs that we feed them.
I would love to hear what someone else has to say on the subject, I kinda feel like I've taken over this thread. That wasn't my intention.
Hopefully, this addressed your questions.
Have a good one!
I don't think the plants are missing anything, and I would assume that most if not all vineyards do test their soil.
No two vineyards even if growing the same variety of grapes will produce identical tasting grapes because you could never replicate the exact environmental factors from one vineyard to another. Or more specifically to your question(I think?) replicate the soil from one vineyard to another, even if you test the soil and amend it according to the needs of the plant. A soil test does not allow you to exactly replicate the same soil from vineyard to vineyard, you can add amendments all day long. Even commercial bagged soil from the same company has some tiny variance from year to year.
But, my original point wasn't specific to soil and terroir involves more than soil, it's any and all environmental factors and how they affect the character of the crop. Two identical plants grown using different inputs will produce different bud. Plants uptake more than NPK from the inputs that we feed them.
I would love to hear what someone else has to say on the subject, I kinda feel like I've taken over this thread. That wasn't my intention.
Hopefully, this addressed your questions.
Have a good one!
Radicle420
Well-Known Member
You can't even give away synthetically grown weed out to traveling kids in N. Cali. If homeless traveling kids can tell the difference I'm pretty sure we all can too. Terroir is real! Organic soil grown weed is king in my book!
SB85
Well-Known Member
I feel if you enjoy organic grown produce then might as well go the same route with weed.
I'm not sure how enviormental factors have anything to do with synthetic vs organic so i'm confused as well.
" Plants uptake more than NPK from the inputs that we feed them." Would love to know what these are.
Scuzzman
Well-Known Member
is someone using an A.I to write some of this crap, any one that can suggest Canuak( the p-freak) can grow is just stupid , to claim organic is better than synthetic is just bro crap- for those making claims regarding organics/soil show some actual proof - once dried/cured its all the same its a bloody weed get over it...
Phytoplankton
Well-Known Member
It goes along with the flushing bro-science.
Funkentelechy
Well-Known Member
"I'm not sure how enviormental factors have anything to do with synthetic vs organic so i'm confused as well."
Nutrients are an environmental factor.
" Plants uptake more than NPK from the inputs that we feed them." Would love to know what these are."
Boron, zinc, manganese, iron, copper, molybdenum, chlorine, Lithium, strontium, tin, radium, beryllium, vanadium, mercury, silver, bromine, silicon, gallium, molybdenum, Cobalt, Nickel, Magnesium.
So what I did here is Google micro nutrients and non essential elements that have a functional role in plants, then cut and paste. I would suggest in the future that you do the same with further questions like this.
Feel free to PM me if you would like to further this conversation.
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Right I assumed needed micros were included because why wouldnt they be. THe other non essential elements are helpful but at what amounts? at which point would they become detrimental to Cannabis that is a accumulator of heavy metals? My water has chlorine for example, there is also mono silicic acid found in most tap water. I also use potassium silicate. see where i am going with this?
Funkentelechy
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