Wisconsin Revolt

Johnnyorganic said:

If that were the truth, why does the U.S continue to lag behind other developed nations in virtually every category of student performance?

It's not the money. We spend plenty of money already.

Maybe it's over-compensated, shitty teachers.

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now, to avoid an edit that 'adds substantial content' i have decided to make a fresh post. just for you because i love you so much and would hate to make you more cranky then you already are by breaking one of your rules of forum etiquette.

something is rotten in denmark.

you cite our lagging performance metrics, and posit that it is the fault of over-compensated teachers.

naturally then, the solution would be to pay them less.

so let's strip teachers of collective bargaining rights, reduce pay for teachers to minimum wage without benefits, and like any other similar position, put some ads on craigslist to hire.

you want to take wagers on what would happen to our performance metrics if we kicked out the college-educated professionals we have and instead take your approach?

i swear, that has to be the stupidest thought you have ever typed.

improve performance...by paying the teachers less! how could that ever fail?

you get ppl saying we spend an avg of blah blah blah per kid...

private schools get to set their tuition rates pretty low b/c they have smaller campuses, which means a smaller mortage, less janitors, less lawn guys, less desks, less classrooms and less students.

per capita expedintures on education have sky rocketed not b/c of the teachers, they don't earn a lot of money, but b/c of a demographic surge of students with generation Y, which is 60 million students, almost double the generation that preceeded it.... it puts an enourmous strain on a system that was not prepared for the surge in registrations, the rise in technology, the ridiculous aftermath of the columbine shooting, no child left behind, and a global recession....

and you can't blame the teacher's for kids that decide to drop-out and make bad choices and you can't punish them either.......

UncleBuck said:

now, to avoid an edit that 'adds substantial content' i have decided to make a fresh post. just for you because i love you so much and would hate to make you more cranky then you already are by breaking one of your rules of forum etiquette.

something is rotten in denmark.

you cite our lagging performance metrics, and posit that it is the fault of over-compensated teachers.

naturally then, the solution would be to pay them less.

so let's strip teachers of collective bargaining rights, reduce pay for teachers to minimum wage without benefits, and like any other similar position, put some ads on craigslist to hire.

you want to take wagers on what would happen to our performance metrics if we kicked out the college-educated professionals we have and instead take your approach?

i swear, that has to be the stupidest thought you have ever typed.

improve performance...by paying the teachers less! how could that ever fail?

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Thanks, Buck. I really do appreciate it.

As I understand it, the bill does not exactly 'strip' collective bargaining.

It limits it to wages. What it eliminates is union authority to collectively bargain over work rules (which should not be any business of the union anyway) and benefits.

Teachers have been producing a not-ready-for-even-Wal-Mart product for decades now. Perhaps they should get a taste of their own medicine.

I would not care if they eliminated collective bargaining entirely, as you seem to claim.

You mentioned my credibility earlier. It's all about unfunded liabilities for benefits based on promises made to union goons posing as public servants.

It's lengthy, but it backs me up.
http://www.ncpa.org/pdfs/st329.pdf

Why not improve performance by not paying the teachers at all? Home schooled kids perform better than public school kids.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=19&ved=0CFUQFjAIOAo&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hslda.org%2Fdocs%2Fnche%2F000000%2F00000017.asp&ei=T9lhTYKQLIWClAfCxpDUCw&usg=AFQjCNGa9RZURshbAtflh2fApw9l1rQSiQ

Johnnyorganic said:

Thanks, Buck. I really do appreciate it.

As I understand it, the bill does not exactly 'strip' collective bargaining.

It limits it to wages. What it eliminates is union authority to collectively bargain over work rules (which should not be any business of the union anyway) and benefits.

Teachers have been producing a not-ready-for-even-Wal-Mart product for decades now. Perhaps they should get a taste of their own medicine.

I would not care if they eliminated collective bargaining entirely, as you seem to claim.

You mentioned my credibility earlier. It's all about unfunded liabilities for benefits based on promises made to union goons posing as public servants.

It's lengthy, but it backs me up.
http://www.ncpa.org/pdfs/st329.pdf

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don't you understand that part of America's great Democracy is collective bargaining by unions representing millions of employees?? Have you not seen the pictures of america before/after unionized labor rose??

what the hell is wrong with you??

goons??? Union representatives are at times controversial, but they do represent the interests of stake-holders. they are the counter-balance to the corporate-controlled 'government'.....

UncleBuck said:

this is about unions. and public education.

like i keep saying, good luck attracting good teachers by treating them like walmart employees.



yet somehow, i survive. thanks for your concern



i wonder why fdr is relevant to this thread. dude has been dead for a while now. obfuscation, perhaps? or perhaps you just like to wow us with your marvelous grasp of history.

if it is the latter, then "wow". happy now?



my parents used to send me to my room when i misbehaved as a child. i'm sure it was just because they wanted to see me suffer

you keep going back to this point..."they shut down the schools". i'm not so worried about a few days off as i am about teachers being put on the same level as walmart employees.



even my shit job that i work offers a 3% match on 401k, paid time off (just not as much), and health benefits (although not as good).

you know what jobs don't get a crack at this? walmart employees.

the same ones who are also denied collective bargaining.



that would explain why they offered concessions, right?

i don't think teachers caused the last recession or put wisconsin in debt, but they are offering to do their part and make sacrifices to help.

that's not good enough though. apparently, they must make all these sacrifices AND be reduced to walmart employee standard.

nothing will satisfy you until teachers jobs are outsourced to some inhumane labor factory in bangladesh that doesn't have so many 'oppressive burdens and regulations'.

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Now Buck, don't confuse the man with facts. He has a mission and your facts and figures are getting in the way of that. Shame on you.

redivider said:

don't you understand that part of America's great Democracy is collective bargaining by unions representing millions of employees?? Have you not seen the pictures of america before/after unionized labor rose??

what the hell is wrong with you??

goons??? Union representatives are at times controversial, but they do represent the interests of stake-holders. they are the counter-balance to the corporate-controlled 'government'.....

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The U.S. was established as a Republic.

Democracy is mob rule.

Collective bargaining for government employees, which only emerged in 1959, has resulted in state governments writing checks the taxpayers cannot cash.

The simple fact that Proggies can't understand this VERY simple point would be laughable if it were not so sad.

What the hell is wrong with you?

Stupid question, I know.

You're a Proggie.

Carne Seca said:

Now Buck, don't confuse the man with facts. He has a mission and your facts and figures are getting in the way of that. Shame on you.

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Unworthy.

A dismissive attitude only highlights your own desperation.

Exactly which 'facts' confuse me?

Be specific.

Hey John, dont you kind of find the governor and his argument completely full of shit?

Seriously, when the issue first started it was about "balancing the budget", and "this isnt about union busting."
Then the union conceded all the economic demands, and guess what; it wasnt enough.

Funny how the tune changes, we ALL KNOW this is not about balancing the budget, its about busting the union. If the good governor is so concerned about the budget why is he also proposing cutting taxes on the highest income levels?

Typical Teabagger bullshit, take $ from the Koch brothers, Exxon and while you wail away about your defense of the "common man" and about balancing budgets. You teabaggers love the terms "class warfare" "redistribution of wealth" and yet you seem to be the ultimate warriors when it comes to class warfare and redistribution.. Take $ from the middle class and give it to the richest in our society, John THAT is class warfare. I guess you support redistribution as long as the flow goes your way huh?

I guess I can understand your anger, if the cause I supported so blindly ended up being exposed for the hypocrisy it really is Id be bummed too....Sorry John, like I told you a year ago, same story different faces.. Enjoy the next year and a half, the teabaggers will overstep and piss off the moderates and independents and will get smoked in the next cycle. Shut down the federal government and your movement will suffer the same as good ole Newt did, I really hope your side is as dumb as they appear to be. You guys are giving the Dems back their power faster than even I thought was possible.

redivider said:

goons??? Union representatives are at times controversial, but they do represent the interests of stake-holders. they are the counter-balance to the corporate-controlled 'government'.....

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How about you let some 6’5” union thug hit you in the face with a spud wrench then see if you still think they are not a bunch of goons. My stepdad got beat half to death for crossing a picket line because he had to work to feed his family. It was guys he worked with all the time. He was a union member but they didn’t care he need a pay check, that he had hungry children at home. They just started kicking his ass. My brother used to have to fight union goons on construction sites all the time. His crime working for a company that wasn’t unionized. I worked at a couple of factories for summer jobs when I was younger. It’s amazing at the amount of threats and intimidation a 18 year old kid got all because I won’t join their stupid ass union. I don't need some union telling me what are acceptable terms for employment. I can figure that out on my own.

Unions have one weapon and that’s force.

ink the world said:

Hey John, dont you kind of find the governor and his argument completely full of shit?

Seriously, when the issue first started it was about "balancing the budget", and "this isnt about union busting."
Then the union conceded all the economic demands, and guess what; it wasnt enough.

Funny how the tune changes, we ALL KNOW this is not about balancing the budget, its about busting the union. If the good governor is so concerned about the budget why is he also proposing cutting taxes on the highest income levels?

Typical Teabagger bullshit, take $ from the Koch brothers, Exxon and while you wail away about your defense of the "common man" and about balancing budgets. You teabaggers love the terms "class warfare" "redistribution of wealth" and yet you seem to be the ultimate warriors when it comes to class warfare and redistribution.. Take $ from the middle class and give it to the richest in our society, John THAT is class warfare. I guess you support redistribution as long as the flow goes your way huh?

I guess I can understand your anger, if the cause I supported so blindly ended up being exposed for the hypocrisy it really is Id be bummed too....Sorry John, like I told you a year ago, same story different faces.. Enjoy the next year and a half, the teabaggers will overstep and piss off the moderates and independents and will get smoked in the next cycle. Shut down the federal government and your movement will suffer the same as good ole Newt did, I really hope your side is as dumb as they appear to be. You guys are giving the Dems back their power faster than even I thought was possible.

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And just how does this bust the unions? From what I can tell all it does is curtail some union power.

The bill will allow people to choose not to be in a union and keep their job, which is something they cannot do now. Is it such a crime to wish to not be in a union?

Where do you get the idea that this issue stopped being about the budget? That's what it has been about all along. The union aspect of this issue is getting all the ink right now because they are screaming the loudest. Screaming because they have been coddled for so long and now are faced with Teabagger elected officials who are not intimidated by them.

I am not angry. I vented my anger on election day. I am enjoying this. It's the union crybabies who look pretty angry.

And make no mistake, if Congress presents a budget to the President and he refuses to sign it, HE will shut down the government.

If it occurs, Barack Hussein Obama will be responsible for a government shutdown.

This is not the people of Wisconsin against the Governor - it is the Governor trying to balance the budget for the benifit of all citizens, and the Unions saying they are more important than the rest of the States citizens.

Folks don't seem to get it - there is no more money, and hard choises have to be made.

Union employees have to face the fact that the USA is in a recession, and they are going to have to make changes just like the rest of American workers employed by private employers have done.

Unions have played a big part in bankrupting local governments, and things simply must change if State, and local governments are to survive.

Many of the protesters are not even citizens of Wisconsin - they are union employees bussed in by the unions from other states.

We both know that the Republican budget as it stands has little to no chance in even making it to Obamas desk.

John, I think you know I have no problem w/ balancing the budget. I do have a problem w/ the very largest budget expenditures not even being touched.
Where are the real cuts to SS, Medicare, Medicaid, farm subsidies, oil subsidies and defense?

Wanna cut some $ real damned quick? How about having the richest corporations in the world actually pay taxes instead of giving them taxpayer money in the form of tax refunds? Your side seems to take the position of shared responsibility for the mess as it is. If the teachers are willing to take a financial hit, why cant the big oil companies? Why do we ask a teacher to have a tax bill at the end of every year, but the richest corporations on earth are getting a fucking tax check?

Why is at the same time Boehner screeching about cutting costs while he tries to push through funding for the F35 spare engine when EVERYONE involved in the military deemed to be unnecessary?

Until the 3,000 lb.. gorillas in the room are addressed I cant take any of this "movement" seriously. While there are some that I can really see as being serious, the majority arent. Make cuts to early child education, PBS, Planned Parenthhod while not touching the oil companies is a disgrace, class warfare and is hardly "sharing the load" or "sharing in the pain."

Its class warfare at its ugliest way. Make the poor and middle class sacrifice as we make the richest in the world share in none of the loss or sacrifice..

We both know that cutting funding for PBS and planned parenthood is a drop in the ocean. Those are hardly the costs that any of the above are, not even close.

Government's job was never supposed to be to "provide goods and services". It was to protect individual rights and ensure that every person had the ability to excercise liberty over both their OWN physical selves and their OWN financial selves. (property rights)

Most people argue endlessly about things that have nothing to do with either of the above. That might explain why this country is the biggest debtor nation and has the highest prison population. Carry on.

ink the world said:

We both know that the Republican budget as it stands has little to no chance in even making it to Obamas desk.

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Something will. And The Big O will either sign it or he won't.

ink the world said:

John, I think you know I have no problem w/ balancing the budget. I do have a problem w/ the very largest budget expenditures not even being touched.
Where are the real cuts to SS, Medicare, Medicaid, farm subsidies, oil subsidies and defense?

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SS is problematic. You are one of the rare Progressives who are even willing to admit SS is a problem. Mention raising retirement age and the Donks raise hell saying the Right is attacking Social Security. Any tweak to SS or Medicare will be met with attacks from all corners because Progressives have succeeded in socializing broad swaths of the population.

Farm subsidies - get rid of them. Hell, eliminate the Department of Agriculture ENTIRELY. It administers the food stamp program.

As far as subsidies go, nothing should be subsidized. NOTHING.

Defense could use a trim, too. How about removing all the troops in South Korea and placing them on the border? 1/2 to 3/4 of all foreign based troops could come home and defend our borders if I had my way.

ink the world said:

Wanna cut some $ real damned quick? How about having the richest corporations in the world actually pay taxes instead of giving them taxpayer money in the form of tax refunds? Your side seems to take the position of shared responsibility for the mess as it is. If the teachers are willing to take a financial hit, why cant the big oil companies? Why do we ask a teacher to have a tax bill at the end of every year, but the richest corporations on earth are getting a fucking tax check?

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The US has the highest corporate tax rate in the world. The world.

ink the world said:

Why is at the same time Boehner screeching about cutting costs while he tries to push through funding for the F35 spare engine when EVERYONE involved in the military deemed to be unnecessary?

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I can't comment on that because I don't know anything about it. If what you say is true, the program should be dropped.

ink the world said:

Until the 3,000 lb.. gorillas in the room are addressed I cant take any of this "movement" seriously. While there are some that I can really see as being serious, the majority arent. Make cuts to early child education, PBS, Planned Parenthhod while not touching the oil companies is a disgrace, class warfare and is hardly "sharing the load" or "sharing in the pain."

Its class warfare at its ugliest way. Make the poor and middle class sacrifice as we make the richest in the world share in none of the loss or sacrifice..

We both know that cutting funding for PBS and planned parenthood is a drop in the ocean. Those are hardly the costs that any of the above are, not even close.

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There is a lot of unnecessary spending which is waste in my eyes. Lots of low hanging fruit.

PBS should compete with commercial stations on a level playing field.

Planned parenthood should just go away.

A Union can gripe and argue and protest all day every day, it still won't make the debt go away.

angelsbandit said:

This is not the people of Wisconsin against the Governor - it is the Governor trying to balance the budget for the benifit of all citizens, and the Unions saying they are more important than the rest of the States citizens.

Folks don't seem to get it - there is no more money, and hard choises have to be made.

Union employees have to face the fact that the USA is in a recession, and they are going to have to make changes just like the rest of American workers employed by private employers have done.

Unions have played a big part in bankrupting local governments, and things simply must change if State, and local governments are to survive.

Many of the protesters are not even citizens of Wisconsin - they are union employees bussed in by the unions from other states.

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Actually, the unions conceded to financial concessions that would help balance the budget. it's not about balancing the budget.

it's about limiting Unionized Labor's Collective Bargaining rights.

YOU don't seem to get it. Collective Bargaining rights have made the workplace safer, our middle class larger, and our society has greatly benefited from it.

the only ones to NOT benefit from collective bargaining by unions are the corrupt motherfuckers trying to drain our social services....

NoDrama said:

A Union can gripe and argue and protest all day every day, it still won't make the debt go away.

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Neither will taking away collective bargaining.

Johnnyorganic said:

Something will. And The Big O will either sign it or he won't.


SS is problematic. You are one of the rare Progressives who are even willing to admit SS is a problem.
John, yet again; just because Im left of you on some matters, hardly makes me a progressive. Im an independent that sees blame for both sides.

Farm subsidies - get rid of them. Hell, eliminate the Department of Agriculture ENTIRELY. It administers the food stamp program.

Im against cutting food stamps John, I have a heart and even poor people deserve food, taking from those that cant afford it is wrong. Period.

As far as subsidies go, nothing should be subsidized. NOTHING.
Then I'll ask again, why arent they being cut?

Defense could use a trim, too. How about removing all the troops in South Korea and placing them on the border? 1/2 to 3/4 of all foreign based troops could come home and defend our borders if I had my way.

We agree here

The US has the highest corporate tax rate in the world. The world.
Unless you are an oil company. John I own a business and if mempory serves me you alsl did. My business pays taxes EVERY year, and Id bet your did too. Why cant the oil companies pay just like us? You realize they get a tax credit EVERY year, thsy dont pay.


I can't comment on that because I don't know anything about it. If what you say is true, the program should be dropped.
It did get blocked, by a few Tea Party freshman.


There is a lot of unnecessary spending which is waste in my eyes. Lots of low hanging fruit.

PBS should compete with commercial stations on a level playing field.

Planned parenthood should just go away.

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John picking the low hanging fruit is the easy and honestly spineless way of trimming the budget. The cuts all come to the same group: lower class and the poor.

I care about cuts that actually will result in REAL savings, not bullshit Moral targets (PP, PBS, NPR) that the GOP has had in their sights for a long time. Yeah John, making a poor woman unable to get a pap smear will really go far in balancing the budget. Collectively PBS, NPR and planned parenthood dont amount to a whole lot of the budget and you know it......like I said a year ago, the cause got hijacked by the moral majority types. ....Keep pushing that far right Christian Conservative bullshit, while not touching our major expenditures, oil and farm subsidies is a punt. Plain and simple.

And again, Wisconsin now has not 1 damned thing to do with the budget, it is about union busting. If we are so intent on lowering government expenditures why not cut pay for the military and slash their benefits too? They are federal employees too..........And dont forget John, when your side shuts down the government along w/ SS checks not being issued, military pay checks wont go out either. Way to support our troops

John here some info for you

Tax year 2009 GE generated $10.3 billion in pretax income, but ended up owing nothing to Uncle Sam. In fact, it recorded a tax benefit of $1.1 billion.

Same tax year Exxon Mobil received a $156 million refund

Chevron received $19 million back

Valero received $157 million

Thats bullshit and you know it John.....My little tattoo shop has a higher tax burden than fucking Exxon, GE, and Valero combined?
You support cutting early childhood education, health care cuts for woman, hacking away at teacher salaries but you wont ask the oil companies to pay a damned red cent in taxes.....you keep ignoring that point, in all my posts, i wonder why?

because you have become what you cried about last yer an elitist. Take from the poor and hand it right over to the oil companies.